Getting Temporary VIP vs. Permanent VIP

[A.Win]

After lurking for over a year, I'm ready for my first post. I am considering the jump from gold to platinum. I'll probably meet with sales next month (April 2014) in Florida and want to be well prepared. Here are some questions:

1. What is the CHEAPEST way to get temporary platinum VIP? From my meeting last year, I remember that it lasts for 2 years (if this is true, I suppose platinum would end in April 2016 for me). If I use all my 2014 to 2018 points to get a 50% discount (instead of 35%), I can save nearly $5,000 worth of points. This would mean LOTS of reservations in 2015, including some for rent.

2. To get permanent platinum, I would need to buy 300,000 points (in addition to my 2 PIC weeks). What do you think is the best price for that? Personally, I prefer paying extra for low MF resorts, but I will likely be offered CWA.

3. Should I get temporary or permanent VIP? (Another reason for another purchase is to change my account name. Currently it is just me, but I wanted to add my wife and children to the title. I think doing this costs about $299 right?)

4. Why is everyone so negative on VIP? Would you rather have 1 million platinum points or 2 million regular points? I would prefer to be platinum because your MFs will only be half as much (assuming the platinum benefits will not be eroded).

5. If I do choose to buy, what extras do you think I can negotiate for? $125 instead of $75 to attend the sales meeting? RCI certificates? anything else?

Thanks for reading.

 

[csxjohn]

Not everyone is against VIP and for some it can pay off.

If you're going to book in the discount window and do it a lot, it will save you money. And if you can rent weeks out it will work too.

Of course you mentioned a big "if." Those Bennie's and rules can and will change from time to time.

 

[pacodemountainside]

One of the biggest drawbacks is that it is a discretionary Developer perk subject to Wyndham's whims.

I don't think your assumption that you can find lots of things you want to book at 60 mark valid and cancel and rebook is dicey.

You indicate you need to buy 300K Developer points which will cost around $50K. Put that $50K in good long term mutual and earn around $5K and still have your principal several years from now.

Since you would get an incremental 150K points this would basically provide with 2 BR at most resorts! The saved MF on these points would be about $800, but the MF on new 300K points would be $1,600.

However if you have a game plan that will result in many rentals lay out on paper and make sure it works.

Of course, since all Developer points Wyndham might buy back at 20% in 5 years if they feel like it!

 

[uscav8r]

I'm not sure why you want temporary vs permanent. Even temp VIP will require a retail purchase, only to have the status expire. Are you trying to see if Platinum will work for you?


It will be virtually the same as your current Gold usage with some minor improvements.

As Paco says, the 60 day cancel/rebook practice is becoming increasingly unreliable, so your realization of the extra 15% discount over Gold may never happen.


Have you had any luck getting discounted ressies with Gold that you have then rented out?


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[ronparise]

After lurking for over a year, I'm ready for my first post. I am considering the jump from gold to platinum. I'll probably meet with sales next month (April 2014) in Florida and want to be well prepared. Here are some questions:

1. What is the CHEAPEST way to get temporary platinum VIP? From my meeting last year, I remember that it lasts for 2 years (if this is true, I suppose platinum would end in April 2016 for me). If I use all my 2014 to 2018 points to get a 50% discount (instead of 35%), I can save nearly $5,000 worth of points. This would mean LOTS of reservations in 2015, including some for rent.

2. To get permanent platinum, I would need to buy 300,000 points (in addition to my 2 PIC weeks). What do you think is the best price for that? Personally, I prefer paying extra for low MF resorts, but I will likely be offered CWA.

3. Should I get temporary or permanent VIP? (Another reason for another purchase is to change my account name. Currently it is just me, but I wanted to add my wife and children to the title. I think doing this costs about $299 right?)

4. Why is everyone so negative on VIP? Would you rather have 1 million platinum points or 2 million regular points? I would prefer to be platinum because your MFs will only be half as much (assuming the platinum benefits will not be eroded).

5. If I do choose to buy, what extras do you think I can negotiate for? $125 instead of $75 to attend the sales meeting? RCI certificates? anything else?

Thanks for reading.

from last to first

5) I cant believe you are thinking about spending $50000 to buy 300,000 more points, and worrying over the difference between a $75 gift card and $125. By the way, at Reunion the other day I was given $125, to listen to some baloney. At one point I asked if I had suffered enough to earn the $125. and he hustled me off to the exit desk.... No negotiating needed.

4) No one is negative on VIP. The benefits are real and quite valuable. The question is..are they valuable enough to justify the price tag. Generally the answer is no, but if you can get the price low enough, and the benefits high enough...maybe

As for my self I get a 50% discount on 20 million points, and 60 guest certs a year for the 12 grand cash I gave up....For me it was worth it. But I dont think you have nearly the points; and I dont think you can get the deal I got anymore...That loophole is closing.

And to your question ..Would I rather have a million VIP or 2 million not? It depends on the cost. The annual difference in mf is about $6000. Im not into
a 20 year break even...Ill be dead before then.

Your's is a different question..You are going from gold to platinum. which will require much less in the way of new points and new cash.

3) In spite of what I said above given where you are now...Gold; I would rather permanent Platinum over temporary. but again it depends on the cost

2) best price will be a foreclosure that they have in inventory and the price could be as little as 10 cents a point

1) If I understand how the sales force uses temporary VIP. They give you some bonus points with a purchase to kick you over (in your case) a million points. When I bought a 63000 point contract recently, they gave me a 63000 point bonus, for one year. I know someone that bought enough for Silver, but she was bonused enough to get gold for 2 years. So you are probably right. The question is how much will you be required to buy...Im guessing at least 105000 points or about $20000 real money


Remember your real benefit will be a 50% discount rather than a 35% discount... if you do all your reservation now in the 60 day window, as a gold vip owning 700000 points gets you the equivalent of about 1,100,000 the extra 400000 points saves you about $2000 a year. If you go to platinum (temporary) you get the equivalent of 2 million points but pay mf on 800000. so you save $6000 mf a year over 2 years vs $2000 you are saving now...So save $8000 in mf for your $20000 purchase....Doesnt make sense to me.

Buy the 300000 points ($60000) and save $4000 a year for life is a 15 year payback...Still doesnt make sense to me

The better way to do this if you need more vacations,is to put your $60k in a good tax free muni bond at 5% and earn $3000 a year and use the $3000 to pay the mf on 600000 new points purchase on the secondary market. ie you keep your money and with 1,300,000 points and a gold discount you still get the equivalent of 2,000,000 points

Do the math

 

[am1]

I would not waste my effort trying to get a better gift. If you are seriously interested save your bargaining for when your with the salesmen.

Your plan may have merit.

 

[uscav8r]

Not everyone is against VIP and for some it can pay off.



If you're going to book in the discount window and do it a lot, it will save you money. And if you can rent weeks out it will work too.



Of course you mentioned a big "if." Those Bennie's and rules can and will change from time to time.

Another biggie: "if" there is availability at a rentable (for profit) resort during the discount window.


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[A.Win]

I thought getting temporary VIP would be much cheaper. If it is $20,000 (as estimated by Ron), then that is too much. The original idea would be to pay some now and save $5,000 with the extra discount, then pay more later to get permanent platinum. But this apparently won't work if the price is so high.

But I like Ron's idea of buying a foreclosure for 10 cents. I think $30K more for platinum would be worth it.

I ran the numbers. If I bought 300K more points, my MF would go up by $2.7K and my travel benefit would go up by $6.1K. So is the cost worth an additional $3.4 K in travel? If the cost is $30K, I think the answer is yes. The return is more than 10% while a CD is paying 2%. The numbers are more favorable for me because I will PIC 2 bigger units at the time of purchase. Currently, I am only picking 2-bedroom units.

Since I can't use all this travel by myself, I will need to do some rentals. I think I can do some of that too, but it will certainly take some effort.

 

[csxjohn]

...
Since I can't use all this travel by myself, I will need to do some rentals. I think I can do some of that too, but it will certainly take some effort.

There are a lot of people on eBay, Craig's List, and here in the bargain deals that thought they could make a profit renting.

Unless you have a very desirable unit at very prime time it may not work.

I saw a lot of last minute ads for race week and bike week in Daytona for significant discounts.

Ron's dealing with 20,000,000 points so his purchase will pay him in a short time. You will be in that same pond with him trying to make your rentals pay. ( Better wear a PFD.)

As Ron said, for most people the cost is not worth it. Run your numbers again and try renting before you make the jump.

 

[A.Win]

Thanks for the warning. I do have some experience renting homes (mostly months and years at a time) and a few weeks here and there. It is indeed difficult, and I also strongly discourage others from trying it. But with hard work, it has worked out OK for me thus far.

My intention is to use most of the points for myself and my family. But depending on the year, I will probably need to rent 0-40% of my points.

If you think the alternative is 10% on the stock market, then buy resale or rent.
If the alternative is 2% in a CD, then buying platinum probably makes more sense. Even if it cost you $100K to get platinum, you will save about $6K per year in MF. So for those that travel a lot and can rent, then platinum can work.

 

[pacodemountainside]

Ron is living proof renting TSs can be very profitable for people with expertise, devote time and do home work. Shoot, he might get award at VOI meeting in May for largest ownership. Read and heed his sage advice.

Also, several active posters who have "web site" on their post are active renters who are your competition. Check 'em out!

Then there is Kendra Bowers who a few years ago was Queen of renters, then Wyndham changed VIP rules and bankrupted her.

As Ron mentions, if one can get to VIP on the cheap using converting fixed week units, buying ton of points from Corporate repros, buying from HOA who can sell foreclosure with VIP perks, getting adopted by VIP, etc. then might might sense. At what point is strictly based on individual circumstances.

Renting SFR is totally different than TSs. It can be very profitable, shoot at one point I had 14 condos going and being retired, handy and jail house lawyer found very profitable. My TS rentals have been so so and fighting with Ron for NO Mardi Gras weeks , etc. at the crack of dawn challenging!

I don't think comparing 2% CDs with stock market is reasonable. One who is not comfortable with money in Morningstar 4-5 star rated, no load, low fee mutual funds probably should not be investing in TS rentals. Granted the 30%+ stock market return last year is way above average of 9-10% but for most should be long term. Likewise, Wyndham soaring from $3 to $70 in 5 years.

Also, keep in mind PICing is not deeded right. If resort drops RCI affiliation PIC vaporises. Also, other posts indicate Wyndham is trying to scale down.

Another note, I made a major Developer purchase around 9/18/2011 as was only warm body in sales center and was bonused up to VIP Gold for two years and got bonus points for each year as sales manager had tones of goodies in incentives in drawer/.hip pocket and needed to make some kind of sale. Paid $9.00+ per 1,000 so price is very negotiable. The old right place, right time.


In my experience RCI bonus certificates don't even make good toilet paper or fire starter

Virtually everyone wants low MF and high ARP and market reflects.

Purchase price free and MF $500. 10 year cost $5K

Purchase price $1K, MF $400 10 year cost $5K.

Ignores time value of money which would favor higher MF paid over time vs $1K up front!

 

[A.Win]

I do NOT want to do rentals. I mostly want to enjoy the points myself. But for the years where I can't use it all myself, I can rent 0-40% of my points.

Now if I start buying more on top of the 1 million, then that means I am renting (or spending a month or two in NYC or S.F. or Chicago)

My retirement money is aggressively in stocks already. So I need to be more cautious with the rest of it. A 10% return in the form of travel works better than a 2% CD for me.

 

[am1]

If you do not want to do rentals do not try to do them. It is not easy. That I can promise you.

Checking availability every day for the whole here and responding to e-mails even more than that.

The exception is if you will be renting to friends and family.

 

[uscav8r]

I do NOT want to do rentals. I mostly want to enjoy the points myself. But for the years where I can't use it all myself, I can rent 0-40% of my points.



Now if I start buying more on top of the 1 million, then that means I am renting (or spending a month or two in NYC or S.F. or Chicago)



My retirement money is aggressively in stocks already. So I need to be more cautious with the rest of it. A 10% return in the form of travel works better than a 2% CD for me.

If you are trying to make 1 million points, it sounds like you already have 700k for Gold. It sound from you post that you might already have about 100k excess in some years. How has the rental of those points gone so far (if you have tried it)?


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[pacodemountainside]

If you are trying to make 1 million points, it sounds like you already have 700k for Gold. It sound from you post that you might already have about 100k excess in some years. How has the rental of those points gone so far (if you have tried it)?


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Guessing from limited post info, has 500K grand fathered Gold VIP.

Looking for TUG blessing which has not been forthcoming!

 

[uscav8r]

Guessing from limited post info, has 500K grand fathered Gold VIP.



Looking for TUG blessing which has not been forthcoming!

It's buried, but post #1, question 2 mentions 300k needed for Platinum.

I'd be okay with it except I can't see the added value being worth $30-50k. OP already gets 35% discount at 60 days. So pay that much $$$ for an extra 15% off and 15 days earlier for upgrades, and 5 guest certs??? Otherwise Gold is the same as Platinum and no further retail purchase is needed.

OP also mentions he does NOT want to be in the landlord business, but this proposed move almost makes it a necessity.






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[jjmanthei05]

I do NOT want to do rentals. I mostly want to enjoy the points myself. But for the years where I can't use it all myself, I can rent 0-40% of my points.

Now if I start buying more on top of the 1 million, then that means I am renting (or spending a month or two in NYC or S.F. or Chicago)

My retirement money is aggressively in stocks already. So I need to be more cautious with the rest of it. A 10% return in the form of travel works better than a 2% CD for me.

If you don't want to do rentals then add your 300,000 to your account as resale save the 50,000, enjoy your vacation and have fun. I have found platinum is worth it if you are going to rent your account 80+%. if that isn't your plan, stick with the 35% you have and enjoy the family time.

Here is the example on how I don't see this working with just personal use. We are heading to panama city beach on Friday for 10 days we have 2 - 3 bedroom presidential units there. The presidential units are 770,000 and 805,000 points respectively. With my discount and upgrade from a studio upper (no lower studios sun - sun) my cost for those rooms is 112,000 points a piece. The problem with that is to do that I have to sit on reservations of about 2 million points for 11 months because of full price units with backups in case I lost one in the cancel/rebook. If you did the same thing you would now have 1.8 million points to find some place to use the rest of this year. Without rentals there is no way I could allocate that many points to my personal reservations. I wouldn't be able to use the rest of the points in the year. Getting the 90% discount is awesome but difficult to do and do consistently.

Jason

 

[ronparise]

Getting the 90% discount is awesome but difficult to do and do consistently.

Jason

and even if you could get it consistently, you would still be tying up nearly 2 million points for a year.....doesnt leave much to rent?

 

[uscav8r]

and even if you could get it consistently, you would still be tying up nearly 2 million points for a year.....doesnt leave much to rent?

Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of cancelled points that this generates, for which there may or may not be enough time to reuse within the Wyndham system by the end of the use year (and be forced to dump them into RCI or other inefficient purpose).

 

[csxjohn]

...Then there is Kendra Bowers who a few years ago was Queen of renters, then Wyndham changed VIP rules and bankrupted her...

This is what can happen when you base your plans on current VIP rules.

There is no guarantee that any level VIP will continue to get its current discount or other perks.

 

[am1]

Then there is Kendra Bowers who a few years ago was Queen of renters, then Wyndham changed VIP rules and bankrupted her.

What kind of money was she making or voluming was she doing? Its hard to imagine she would get run out because of any change in VIP benefits.
I know others got pushed out but surely someone doing a lot of rental could work around any of the changes.

 

[A.Win]

I did a different analysis. By buying GOLD, I am estimating a travel return of about 10%. I'm happy with that, but others want a much higher return.

If I bought PLATINUM (for $30K more), I am estimating a travel return of 12%. That is even better.

But it would be like buying a $70,000 car on sale for $60,000, when you really only need a $30,000 car. You can look at it like I'm saving $10,000, HOORAY! or I'm spending $30,000 more than I need to.

If I went platinum, my unit size would probably be bigger too.

I'm curious, how many points do VIP members dump in RCI because you got a discount, but don't have time to use the savings?

 

[am1]

I'm curious, how many points do VIP members dump in RCI because you got a discount, but don't have time to use the savings?

Nothing yet but there may be a time where I want to trade using rci points.

 

[uscav8r]

I did a different analysis. By buying GOLD, I am estimating a travel return of about 10%. I'm happy with that, but others want a much higher return.

If I bought PLATINUM (for $30K more), I am estimating a travel return of 12%. That is even better.

I'm confused. Are you currently Gold? If so, your analysis should really be, "what is the improvement of Platinum over Gold for the marginal cost to get that improvement?" Using your numbers, there is a 2% ROI improvement over Gold. Remember, the range of cost to upgrade your ownership is AT LEAST $30k, but more likely closer to $50k. You'll just to be on the look out for the right deal, and say "no" to everything else.

But it would be like buying a $70,000 car on sale for $60,000, when you really only need a $30,000 car. You can look at it like I'm saving $10,000, HOORAY! or I'm spending $30,000 more than I need to.

There's nothing like buying a car (or apparently a timeshare) to get us humans out of thinking rationally!

If I went platinum, my unit size would probably be bigger too.

No comment.

I'm curious, how many points do VIP members dump in RCI because you got a discount, but don't have time to use the savings?

It really depends on when you tend to have most of your reservations that you want to do the cancel/rebook for. If you have a January use year, and are trying to do this on Christmas or New Years vacations, there is only a short 1-3 months to use up the cancelled points. If you are doing this for Mardi GRAS on the other hand, you'll have just about a full 12 months to use the cancelled points.

That's one of the reasons why the alignment of accounts to a single use year was bad for some and not much of a big deal for others.


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[A.Win]

I'm willing to pay up to $30K for the gold to platinum upgrade. My wife would prefer not to invest in more travel. She wants a big primary home.

In an earlier post, I estimated an increased travel benefit of $3.4K. But as so many of you have pointed out, this estimate can change drastically depending on the assumptions. If I can get upgrades on top of the 50% discount, I can do better. But if the rules change, or I end up moving valuable Platinum points to RCI, my return could be lower. Will I be able to rent well or only cover the MF? There are so many variables to platinum ownership!