RCI Weeks to offer value transparency

[bnoble]

And if it works that way, I think that'll make it even better as it'll prevent major trades up

Except that it doesn't take much imagination to figure out how to get around it.

because of the way our generic deposits are calculated.

I think there is a chance of that, as well.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Another factor: I think RCI will do everything they can to incentivize people to trade down, as they would book MULTIPLE exchanges from each deposit, and RCI makes money off of exchanges.

There are cynics who might say that is precisely the point.

Under the old systems, a practical limit on moving the best quality units into the rental pool is that RCI has to give the depositors of those weeks reasonable value in exchange or the owners stop depositing those weeks.

Now, if they divert top quality weeks to the rental pool, the depositors of those weeks can get multiple lesser weeks, which means more value to those depositors.

Of course this reduces the supply of directly equal exchanges for depositors in the lower tiers, which is addressed by letting theose depositors to obtain multiple weeks from lower tiers yet.

And so on, all the way to the bottom of the pool.

Two things happen. First is RCI generates more exchange fees. Second is that it minimizes the number of lower quality weeks that RCI takes in and the get unused.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I wonder if this will be easy to "see" and figure out, or if it will be difficult.

I only have RCI Points to compare the value of my weeks, and a week at a SC resort is very high in RCI Points, so does that mean those weeks will have high points in the new system? One would assume, or maybe RCI will adjust values of RCI Points and PFD at the same time they roll this out and values will go down.

Maybe I will have to give away less of our weeks, if I am suddenly going to be able to combine weeks to get something we really want.

 

[Carolinian]

The problem that is going to hit is that exchange values will be altered and this is where owners are going to hit the ceiling.

Take the overbuilt areas. Is RCI really going to set their values where the market - supply and demand - say they should be, and where RCI members are used to their values being? I doubt it because then the developers there would go ballistic. So RCI will pad those values to keep the developers happy (one of the big evils of a published value system). However, the owners of off season weeks elsewhere, which have a similar supply / demand curve as those overbuilt areas and have been used to trading in easily, will suddenly find arbitrary fixed numbers that no longer allow them to do that. They will decide, quite correctly, that they have been screwed.

Then there are the people with pink weeks in Gold Crown resorts in areas with a so-so supply / demand curve. These people are going to get a comeupance. They have thought they were Red Gold Crown, top of the heap, as their saleman told them, and will find out otherwise.

I suspect that, as with RCI Points, there will be far too much overaveraging with too many instances of similar values given for dissimilar weeks. If you are at the low end of one of those value blocks, it is great, but if you are at the high end, you are screwed.

It looks like it will be trial and error with the numbers, though, so that is something that online groups like TUG should compile to help members. Otherwise is it a bit of a crapshoot for anyone to try out the system.

The idea of people using several low value weeks to get one high value week is not going to fly because that invovles multiple m/f's, and with RCI's rentals, it will be easier just to rent the better week than bunching up the m/f's.

This whole scheme is going to be a train wreck for HOA's with upset members who exchange bailing out.

 

[MichaelColey]

The problem that is going to hit is that exchange values will be altered...

I don't read it that way at all. In fact, they specifically say "The trading power of your deposit isn’t changing!"

The way I understand it, they're making the existing trading value visible and letting you get change back to apply to another exchange.

 

[Dave599]

I don't read it that way at all. In fact, they specifically say "The trading power of your deposit isn’t changing!"

The way I understand it, they're making the existing trading value visible and letting you get change back to apply to another exchange.

Your right Michael, trading power is not changing you will just be able to see it, it is going to have a profound effect in a number of ways...........

The first thing will be the huge period of whining and complaining from people who bought junk now able to see they bought junk, a lot may leave rci because there weeks have no value in rci or they will be tearing the resorts a new one for selling them a bill of goods.....

BTW I see it on here all the time "I own a gold crown at x resort" tier, gold crown silver crown etc has NOTHING to do with trading value its not used in the trading value calculation. Now before the "pickers of bones" start up it can in a round about way affect trading value in that gold crowns can in general have a higher demand so it can effect the supply/demand curve but it is not used directly.

members who have never been able to get ny or florida keys etc will now be able to if they want to combine 2 20 value weeks to get the 40 they need for Manhattan club

It should end all the complaining of "I never get anything I want" because you will be able to see you don't get it because you bought junk or you deposit so late you loose 2/3rds of your trading power.

The thousands if not tens of thousands of members who try to rent there weeks (gee wonder why there are not as many deposits as there was 10 years ago) will have to decide do I try and rent it until a month before C/I and end up with a trading value of 5 if it doesn't rent or do I deposit 9 months out and get a trading value of 20 or 30........ Many many people shoot themselves in the foot holding out for that rental that never happens.

Keep in mind that rci is a business, its not a co=op or non-profit so like any business there goal is to leave you with as little money in your wallet as possible.....so don't think for a second you will be able to combine 2 20 value weeks to make a 40 without paying a fee for that service, its all about the profits for the shareholders and million dollar suits......


Dave

 

[timeos2]

Taking the information to all not just those who "got it" in the past

I don't read it that way at all. In fact, they specifically say "The trading power of your deposit isn’t changing!"

The way I understand it, they're making the existing trading value visible and letting you get change back to apply to another exchange.

Yes, it will just be disclosure of the already existing, hidden (how was that benefiting anyone except the developers who were hiding the REAL value or lack of it behind the secrecy?) values your weeks have now. If it isn't what you were led to believe then that is more proof that the old, secret system was the sham not the system that reveals values used.

The old timers want the secrets left hidden to maximize their values as they have figured it out while the majority are in the dark. Now all will know and can make better decisions on an even playing field - they lose that long standing edge. A tough pill for them but a plus for the vast majority. They aren't losing anything but gaining knowledge they never had before.

 

[Carolinian]

How many times has RCI claimed that they have not touched trading power, and Tuggers can see for themselves that they had????? RCI is proven to speak with a forked tongue. Of course they are going to claim that. The real test will be to see if things that we know can easily trade into certain places, particularly overbuilt areas, now can still do that after RCI casts its magic spell.

The fact that they have been advising some resorts on their new numbers ahead of time but not others is NOT a sign that this program is on the up and up. And that has been happening on both sides of the Atlantic.

I don't read it that way at all. In fact, they specifically say "The trading power of your deposit isn’t changing!"

The way I understand it, they're making the existing trading value visible and letting you get change back to apply to another exchange.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Michael doesn't know about RCI's wicked past like we do. He is a brand new timeshare owner, but he is a quick learner and figures things out as fast as Boca did, way back when.

We all know that RCI says one thing and does quite another.

After 5/30/2009, when my trading power (North Carolina and Colorado summer weeks) went from top tier to probably tier four out of the six new levels of trading power, all of the guides told me that my trading power didn't change. They bold-faced lied to me. I was sick to death of hearing their mantra; they were saying what they were told to say by the higher-ups in RCI.

BUT I fought and fought and wrote letters to everyone I could, and finally it was acknowledged by Carole Ablett that 200K deposited weeks were re-evaluated and trading power was reduced for most of them. I have her email stating that, and now when RCI spews their garbage, I can say, "Let me forward you an email from Carole Ablett, telling me I was right before..."

I am afraid of anything RCI does to weeks' owners. This new system is not going to be impressive, I guarantee it. It will benefit RCI.

How many times has RCI claimed that they have not touched trading power, and Tuggers can see for themselves that they had????? RCI is proven to speak with a forked tongue. Of course they are going to claim that. The real test will be to see if things that we know can easily trade into certain places, particularly overbuilt areas, now can still do that after RCI casts its magic spell.

The fact that they have been advising some resorts on their new numbers ahead of time but not others is NOT a sign that this program is on the up and up. And that has been happening on both sides of the Atlantic.

 

[bankr63]

(March 27,2010)
I have recently heard from two different RCI sources that, as part of the fallout from the ill-fated class action suit, the RCI Weeks system is going to undergo a major and unprecedented change. The long secret trade value is coming out from the shadows and will be used front and center as the new means for facilitating trades.

The announcement should occur in 4-8 weeks. That should be enough to get the conversation rolling for now.

I have been reading this thread on and off since it first posted. At that time, the expected announcement was 4-8 weeks (May/June?) Here we are in September, half a year later, and none the wiser. If this is REALLY going to happen? Does anyone have better intel as to when that might be?

 

[timeos2]

Still 2010 I hear

I have been reading this thread on and off since it first posted. At that time, the expected announcement was 4-8 weeks (May/June?) Here we are in September, half a year later, and none the wiser. If this is REALLY going to happen? Does anyone have better intel as to when that might be?

Before year end 2010 is all we've heard. It did sound like it would happen quicker earlier this year but, like most things, seems to have been delayed for awhile. Now they appear to be back on track.

 

[bnoble]

of the guides told me that my trading power didn't change. They bold-faced lied to me.

Perhaps more accurately, they told you what they "knew". Remember, most of these guides are being paid minimum wage (or less in foreign offices) and don't know 10% of what the average TUGger does about how things work.

At that time, the expected announcement was 4-8 weeks (May/June?) Here we are in September, half a year later, and none the wiser.

If you scroll back a bit, you'll see that at least one RCI member has received a "preview" of how the system will work, via a publicly-accessible web link.

 

[Dave599]

Before year end 2010 is all we've heard. It did sound like it would happen quicker earlier this year but, like most things, seems to have been delayed for awhile. Now they appear to be back on track.

Early to mid November from my friend at rci however nothing is carved in stone........

 

[rickandcindy23]

Sounds like I need to get my exchanges lined up for next year very soon. I need to take advantage of the opportunities while I can. I am so disappointed at how things are changing again. I just get used to things one way, adjust to it, and then they go and change things again.

 

[taffy19]

Why blame RCI. Blame the prime weeks owners who use and rent NOT deposit.They are the culprits. Damn them.

Pardon me but some people buy for use mainly because they like the resort and/or location and date in case they bought a fixed week too. People, who buy for use mainly are the most content timeshare owners unless the developers keep on changing their program too which is happening right now with the Marriott.

If exchanging is becoming harder to do with II (in Marriott's case) then we need to have another alternative available so that may be renting or do a direct exchange or try another independent exchange company. Everyone has to do what is best for them to make timesharing work. JMHO.

 

[Jennie]

...its all about the profits for the shareholders and million dollar suits......Dave

One problem as I see it is that RCI, like most huge corporations, consists of many different departments headed by "suits" who want to brag about how much revenue their division has brought in this year (or quarter). But it is often at the expense of future earnings. In other words, many of their policies are profitable in the short term but ultimately cannibalize future earnings. By then the "suits" will have sailed off on their golden parachutes, leaving a pile of rubble behind.

In earlier years I bought timeshare weeks that were considered to be excellent traders. And they were--for awhile. But then RCI began skimming off the best deposited weeks and renting them to the general public at prices below what the owner was paying in maintenance fees and Special Assessments. The number and quantity of desirable weeks available for exchange plummeted.

Once I realized this was happening (despite RCI's bald-faced lying about it), I began purchasing weeks at resorts where I want to vacation each year--5 back-to-back weeks in Ft. Lauderdale (Jan.-March) and 3 on Cape Cod in August. They are all 2 bedroom units; several are lock-offs. I know many other people who have done the same thing. These are weeks that will never be deposited with RCI. The owners use them, or rent them for big bucks. The Internet makes it easy to accomplish.

RCI keeps trying to come up with new ideas to attract or retain members. But it is ultimately doomed to fail. They should settle for a smaller, but decent and consistent profit, providing a fair, easy to understand, easy to use exchange system.

 

[taffy19]

Yes, it will just be disclosure of the already existing, hidden (how was that benefiting anyone except the developers who were hiding the REAL value or lack of it behind the secrecy?) values your weeks have now. If it isn't what you were led to believe then that is more proof that the old, secret system was the sham not the system that reveals values used.

The old timers want the secrets left hidden to maximize their values as they have figured it out while the majority are in the dark. Now all will know and can make better decisions on an even playing field - they lose that long standing edge. A tough pill for them but a plus for the vast majority. They aren't losing anything but gaining knowledge they never had before.

I believe that this thread is about RCI making changes in the exchange program for weeks rather than for points. It may be a change for the better for most people who are not as up to date as most TUGgers are here.

I have a question for someone I know who is in RCI points now but wants to go back to weeks. I read somewhere today that you can change this once every three years but how do you find the exact date when to make the change back to weeks?

Since we hardly ever exchange, I don't know much about either system and was meaning to ask this for quite awhile. TIA for your reply.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I believe that this thread is about RCI making changes in the exchange program for weeks rather than for points. It may be a change for the better for most people who are not as up to date as most TUGgers are here.

I have a question for someone I know who is in RCI points now but wants to go back to weeks. I read somewhere today that you can change this once every three years but how do you find the exact date when to make the change back to weeks?

Since we hardly ever exchange, I don't know much about either system and was meaning to ask this for quite awhile. TIA for your reply.

Emmy, I can help with your RCI Points questions for your friend. I know that if you don't renew your membership with RCI Points, your week will now be a week, but you have to renew your weeks account, if you want to continue in RCI weeks (but why would you). I almost had this happen to me accidentally, actually. You are renewing for 3 years, and if your membership gets close to the end date of your use-year, that would be when your annual fee would be due. Don't pay it, and your membership is over.

I love RCI points and wonder why your friend doesn't?

 

[taffy19]

Emmy, I can help with your RCI Points questions for your friend. I know that if you don't renew your membership with RCI Points, your week will now be a week, but you have to renew your weeks account, if you want to continue in RCI weeks (but why would you). I almost had this happen to me accidentally, actually. You are renewing for 3 years, and if your membership gets close to the end date of your use-year, that would be when your annual fee would be due. Don't pay it, and your membership is over.

I love RCI points and wonder why your friend doesn't?

Cindy, there is a valid reason for that. I will call you because I want to find out some more about it. Thank you.

 

[Dave599]

One problem as I see it is that RCI, like most huge corporations, consists of many different departments headed by "suits" who want to brag about how much revenue their division has brought in this year (or quarter). But it is often at the expense of future earnings. In other words, many of their policies are profitable in the short term but ultimately cannibalize future earnings. By then the "suits" will have sailed off on their golden parachutes, leaving a pile of rubble behind.

In earlier years I bought timeshare weeks that were considered to be excellent traders. And they were--for awhile. But then RCI began skimming off the best deposited weeks and renting them to the general public at prices below what the owner was paying in maintenance fees and Special Assessments. The number and quantity of desirable weeks available for exchange plummeted.

Once I realized this was happening (despite RCI's bald-faced lying about it), I began purchasing weeks at resorts where I want to vacation each year--5 back-to-back weeks in Ft. Lauderdale (Jan.-March) and 3 on Cape Cod in August. They are all 2 bedroom units; several are lock-offs. I know many other people who have done the same thing. These are weeks that will never be deposited with RCI. The owners use them, or rent them for big bucks. The Internet makes it easy to accomplish.

RCI keeps trying to come up with new ideas to attract or retain members. But it is ultimately doomed to fail. They should settle for a smaller, but decent and consistent profit, providing a fair, easy to understand, easy to use exchange system.

I will not for a second deny that rci moves some quantity of deposited weeks into rental, they have done so in the past, do so now, and will continue to do so in the future.....However I would hazard a guess that rci's part in the rental loss of deposits is maybe 10%, 90% is the members themselves renting there units you said above if you don't use them "you rent them for big bucks" you don't think that has a profound impact on whats available to trade...........and all you have to do is look on ebay, Kijiji, craigslist, this board, redweek or and of the thousands of boards like them to see the volume of units that are up for rental by there owners those are all weeks that are not getting deposited for trade. No one will deny your right to rent your units but STOP COMPLAINING THAT THERE ARE NO UNITS AVAILABLE TO TRADE INTO in one breath and RENT YOUR UNITS IN THE NEXT. I realize rci is a convenient target its never easy to see the face of the person at fault when you look in a mirror but that's the person who has taken most of the weeks out of the trade pool not rci by a long shot.........

Dave

 

[rickandcindy23]

I will not for a second deny that rci moves some quantity of deposited weeks into rental, they have done so in the past, do so now, and will continue to do so in the future.....However I would hazard a guess that rci's part in the rental loss of deposits is maybe 10%, 90% is the members themselves renting there units you said above if you don't use them "you rent them for big bucks" you don't think that has a profound impact on whats available to trade...........and all you have to do is look on ebay, Kijiji, craigslist, this board, redweek or and of the thousands of boards like them to see the volume of units that are up for rental by there owners those are all weeks that are not getting deposited for trade. No one will deny your right to rent your units but STOP COMPLAINING THAT THERE ARE NO UNITS AVAILABLE TO TRADE INTO in one breath and RENT YOUR UNITS IN THE NEXT. I realize rci is a convenient target its never easy to see the face of the person at fault when you look in a mirror but that's the person who has taken most of the weeks out of the trade pool not rci by a long shot.........

Dave

I am trying to decipher what you are saying. It's very difficult to read your paragraph. I think you need some commas and periods in there somewhere. You are saying we should just give RCI weeks and not rent what we own, or don't complain that RCI rents OUR weeks, when we deposit them?

It should be against the law for RCI to rent what WE own, because they are supposed to be an exchange company.

Simply compare Extra acations with exchange inventory and see things from a totally different perspective.

And here is some news for all of those who think II is just as guilty: I can rent from II, should I choose, and much of their inventory is really cheap, admittedly, but 90% of what they rent, I can pull with my weeks. I cannot pull everything in Getaways with every week, because there are trading power issues with some of my weeks, and sometimes rental inventory is given to II through the resort group, for rental purposes only.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Timeshare Rentals By Owners = OK. Timeshare Rentals By RCI = Not So Much.

It should be against the law for RCI to rent what WE own, because they are supposed to be an exchange company.

I would hate to see the law brought into it. Law enforcement agencies are stretched thin already & additional growth in their jurisdiction for something as trivial overall as timeshares seems questionable at best. Plus, if we don't want RCI renting out our timeshares to the general world of people who don't own timeshares, all we have to do is quit banking our timeshares with RCI.

Even so, there is a distinct aroma of Bait & Switch any time RCI rents out timeshares that were banked for exchange. Sure, the fine print says RCI can do whatever it wants with deposited weeks, but the fact remains that timeshare owners overwhelmingly view RCI as a timeshare exchange organization & thus consider it dirty pool when RCI rents out el primo timeshare weeks to the general world while offering exchanges into more of the timeshare dogs & cats to the loyal, dues-paying & fee-paying members of RCI.

Might not be illegal, but is sure seems unfair, no ?

Meanwhile, despite the dim view timeshare owners take of RCI renting out banked weeks, I don't see anything wrong with whatever the deed-buying, maintenance-fee-paying timeshare owners choose to do with their own paid-for timeshare weeks -- deposit for exchange, check in themselves, rent'm out, give'm away to family & friends, etc. Anything goes.

The original expectation is that the timeshares which individual owners pay for are to be used any way the owners care to use'm. By contrast, people's expectation of RCI is that timeshares banked for exchange will be available for exchange, period. Skimming the cream just doesn't sit right. It might be tolerated if RCI rental income subsidized members' straight exchanges, so that RCI members got the benefit of minimal exchange fees & token annual dues instead of facing fees & dues that only go up-up-up.

Where RCI stumbled was getting caught at it. That is, if they kept the cream-skimming down to imperceptible levels, too few of us regular walking-around timeshare owners would notice or care -- too few, that is, to generate much fuss. When the RCI biz plan led to more & more cream-skimming, that's when the feathers hit the fan.

What's badly needed is a non-profit or not-for-profit timeshare exchange agency run along the lines of a credit union -- that is, in the interests of members rather than for the benefit of the corporate bottom line. It would not need to reinvent the wheel & in fact could operate pretty much the way RCI operates today, except without skimming the cream by renting out prime banked weeks to the general public. I am not holding my breath waiting for that development.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[rickandcindy23]

Where RCI stumbled was getting caught at it. That is, if they kept the cream-skimming down to imperceptible levels, too few of us regular walking-around timeshare owners would notice or care -- too few, that is, to generate much fuss. When the RCI biz plan led to more & more cream-skimming, that's when the feathers hit the fan.

Very true, and that is why no one complains about II. I hardly ever see anyone on TUG saying that II is renting something they really want for exchange. They operate UNDER the radar; they aren't blatantly showing rental inventory along with exchange inventory in searches.

When I search Hawaii with my best traders, most days there are < 25 resorts available, < 500 weeks. When I search Extra Vacations and Exchange together, there are usually 36 resorts and 1,000's of weeks.

RCI is saying to me: "Nanny, nanny, boo, boo, we have weeks you cannot have."

You are right about making it illegal. I don't think the law should be brought into it. I don't believe in over-regulation of anything. So that really isn't my opinion, but it gripes me that RCI automatically gets to do anything with our weeks, as though they hold the deeds.

 

["Roger"]

I don't find it that difficult to understand what Dave is saying.

While admitting that RCI does do rentals, he is also saying that their is a lot of scapegoating going on.

It is hard to find a thread on TUG where, as soon as someone mentions that they are having difficulty getting a trade, someone chimes in "RCI must have rented what you are looking for." Is that really the only thing that is going on? No one lacks trading power? Summer beach weeks haven't always been hard to get? And ... as Dave mentions, with the advent of the Internet, it has become very easy for people to rent their own units. Are we saying that when growing numbers of people decide that they can easily rent via the Internet, this has no impact on availability? (Yes, one poster is going to say that the Internet has had no impact on timesharing. I don't buy that for a moment.)

**********************

I might add another factor that has impacted trading patterns. Online trading. At first, when only a small number of people used it and saw what was sitting untaken, it was a real bonanza. On the other hand, when online trading began to really take hold, and lots of people begin to shop around, people begin to notice that the better units were getting harder and harder to get. More and more people were searching around for the best trade they could get as opposed to just asking RCI for a possible trade at some one location. Guess what happens when lots of people start shopping and see that they can trade for something they did not imagine was available? The really good trades disappear faster and faster.

As an aside, when I first mentioned this, I was told - in a very condenscening fashion, I might add - that the growing popularity of online trading had no impact on the availability of good units - it was because Points owners were raiding the Weeks inventory. At that time, about one-half of one percent of RCI owners had Points units, but online trading was approaching ten percent - a milestone where the ordinary Joe was beginning to participate in shopping around. But - as Dave mentioned - people don't want to look in the mirror and admit that the practices that they themselves participate in might be having some sort of overall negative impact. Better to scapegoat. So there were mobs (I think that is the appropriate word) of TUGGERs who were willing to accept that the good trades were disappearing from the online board because Points (one half on one percent) was raiding Weeks. I am sorry. I believed and still believe that when just a few people were knowledgeable enough to shop around for the best unit available via online trading, they, not surprisingly, found good units sitting there. When the number of shoppers increased, the good units got taken faster. Rather than look in the mirror, find a scapegoat.

 

[Dave599]

I am trying to decipher what you are saying. It's very difficult to read your paragraph. I think you need some commas and periods in there somewhere.

I just re-read my post, there seems to be lots of commas, periods etc in the post, maybe you were up late last night and had to many beers and were not firing on all brain cells this morning.....

You are saying we should just give RCI weeks and not rent what we own, or don't complain that RCI rents OUR weeks, when we deposit them?

No this is NOT what I am saying, what I am saying is **** rent if you choose, but don't complain there are no deposits, when you look at the volume of rentals out there by members it far out weighs anything rci has done and had a far greater impact to the deposit pool then anything rci is doing.....

It should be against the law for RCI to rent what WE own, because they are supposed to be an exchange company.

I won't comment to this its to childish, and naive

Simply compare Extra acations with exchange inventory and see things from a totally different perspective.

I have posted on this before, maybe you didn't read the post, your analysis is inaccurate, I can see where someone with a locked opinion would not want to see the reality. Simply comparing EV's and exchanges does NOT give a clear picture of where the ev's came from. This is because on the website ALL ev's are grouped together as rentals when in fact they come from two different groupings You can only go by what you see and you assume (making and ass of you and me) this is what it is......I challenge you to open your mind and test your theory.....

Call the call center

tell the agent you want to look at extra vacations to a generally high demand area where there is usually very little availability (Florida keys, Florida gulf coast, Hawaii where ever, for what ever date, doesn't have to be a holiday week, what ever floats your boat

As the agent lists what is available ask her/him is it a "H" tagged week or an "R" tagged week, I will bet almost all of them will be H tagged weeks, which means they come to rci from the resorts, via an owner request to rent there unit, (and some other 3rd parties) via the holiday rental network and are once again MEMBERS putting there units in for rental or developers putting in units NOT rci using members deposits.If its an R week then it likely came from a member deposit, a member using there deposit for something else (like a cruise) etc.

I do not deny rci rents some member deposited units, its the scale some of the RCI Haters on here that would have you believe that I find insulting to anyone who has more then 2 active brain cells.....

Dave