Shut out in 13 month reservation window first time ever.

[GaryDouglas]

Another factor to consider is that the Reservation Windows in the Weeks and DC systems do not open on the same day for the same intervals. Generally, the DC windows open days after the Weeks windows.

Two or three years ago I compared all 13 month reservation dates for Weeks and DC users. What you say is generally true, but there were a few weeks around March where that was not true. I don't know it that happens every year or if leap years affect this. Whatever, it's not always the case.

 

[bogey21]

This happens all the time when trying to book in Aruba. I would continue to call every day between now and 12 months to check inventory. In Aruba the days usually show up during that time.

I understand that once one has his/her money "invested" in a Floating Week or Points program they have to do what is necessary to get the usages they want. Personally I didn't want the hassle and sold my Floating Weeks and bought Fixed Week/Fixed Units at a number of HOA Controlled Resorts. The negatives were lesser quality and being locked into specific destinations and the Week I owned. Often though I found that the Resort would swap my Week for the Week of another Owner. There was never a charge for this and it was pretty much a hassle free process. This worked out for me well as I owned at 6 locations I liked to visit every year. Avoiding the situation OP describes made it worthwhile for me.

George

 

[Saintsfanfl]

In the above post, it was reported that the same Thanksgiving weeks were available in II several weeks later and exchanged with non-Marriotts for 3 Thanksgiving weeks. Those would not be late deposits. I feel that it may not deliberate but a bug in Marriott reservation system that is causing major issues to week owners.

That's what I thought so I talked to a supervisor and pushed hard. My issue wasn't just Thanksgiving but the entire month of November Not one check-in day was ever available at any point. Not at 13 and not at 12. The supervisor claimed that every check-in day was so high demand that the units were gone within seconds at each opening. I told this supervisor that the demand they were describing did not exist. It is not that high of a demand timeframe. Furthermore I stated that if what they were saying was true, then at least a couple of those reservations would be deposited. We ended on agree to disagree.

Could it be that they were merely speculating? My guess is yes, and the real issue is some type of bug.

A few weeks later units started popping up on II, and the vast majority of them were not under Marriott preference.

 

[DanH]

For the first time ever I've couldn't get a President week Maui unit at 13 month. Got through to someone at 900am and 1 sec and was so amazed to reach someone so quick and figured I would get what i normally get and was extremely surprised to get totally shut out.

This is very disappointing. I hope this is just some bad luck you had this year. I love my vacation club, but I haven't enjoyed a lot of the changes in the past few years. Good luck to you.

 

[chrono88]

We were shut out from reserving the weeks we wanted as well at 13 months. Almost made us consider getting DC points, but the $$ required still doesn't quite work for us.

Sent from my KFSAWI using Tapatalk

 

[Saintsfanfl]

One of my three units at MMC is a getaway for $477. High demand stuff? Quite the opposite.

 

[dioxide45]

One of my three units at MMC is a getaway for $477. High demand stuff? Quite the opposite.

Same thing I was told about the "Missing" getaways in II. I will post followup in that thread.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

I had the same issues in 2014. Whatever the issue is, it is systemic, and shows no sign of being fixed.

Marriott profits off of the skim, every time a weeks owner shifts to using DC points to make a reservation. . .

 

[icydog]

I didn't read the whole thread so pardon me if this was already mentioned. I have no inventory in HI but I do own at Lakeshore Reserve. I couldn't reserve my week at 13 months, I own two weeks there, becasuse they were sold out.


But I could reserve the exact villa I owned at 13 months using my Destination Club Points! Doesn't that prove the OPs supposition that DC points are getting more prevalent and powerful in the marketplace than weeks inventory!

 

[JIMinNC]

I didn't read the whole thread so pardon me if this was already mentioned. I have no inventory in HI but I do own at Lakeshore Reserve. I couldn't reserve my week at 13 months, I own two weeks there, becasuse they were sold out.


But I could reserve the exact villa I owned at 13 months using my Destination Club Points! Doesn't that prove the OPs supposition that DC points are getting more prevalent and powerful in the marketplace than weeks inventory!

Remember, DC Points and Weeks inventory are two totally separate pools. The supply-demand characteristics of each may be different, but each should have a balance of supply and demand for the owners of each. If more weeks owners elect for points in any given year, more points reservations will be available that year, but that also means that there will be more owners competing for those reservations. While that scenario (owners electing for points) would reduce the number of weeks in the legacy Weeks system, the number of owners competing for those weeks would also be less.

It does seem, however, that TUGgers are increasingly reporting that difficult reservations are often easier to get with DC points than traditional Weeks. I'm not sure anyone has ever solved that question, but it could be that owners with high season/high point value weeks are more likely to elect for points (since they get a lot of points), so the supply of these high value weeks winds up being relatively greater in the Points inventory pool than the Weeks inventory pool. Perhaps Weeks owners are more conditioned to reserving early so the portion of the Weeks inventory that gets released at 13 months gets snapped up quickly. Perhaps points owners aren't quite so inclined to reserve at 13 months. Another factor might be the ability of owners of high-value points weeks to elect their weeks for points, but then use that high number of points to reserve two or three weeks at lower point value resorts/seasons, use the points for short stays, etc. Since there are so many different uses for points than just a one week reservation, the demand in the Points pool is spread more broadly and not so concentrated in the high demand, high value resorts/seasons. Just speculating...

 

[Sandy VDH]

Wyndham had a fixed/float full week exchange system, they maintained for a long while even after they introduced the points program. They then decided after so many years that members who want fixed week only trades and didn't convert to points well they can do it now through RCI or II and the stopped the Fixed week trade program. Give it a decade or less after DC is introduced and I might guess that the weeks side goes away and the DC side inventory is all that is left standing. Any remaining week inventory holders are just left to either convert finally or go to an external exchange company. My guess is the writing is on the wall, it will just take more years to get there.

 

[davidvel]

Remember, DC Points and Weeks inventory are two totally separate pools. The supply-demand characteristics of each may be different, but each should have a balance of supply and demand for the owners of each. If more weeks owners elect for points in any given year, more points reservations will be available that year, but that also means that there will be more owners competing for those reservations. While that scenario (owners electing for points) would reduce the number of weeks in the legacy Weeks system, the number of owners competing for those weeks would also be less.

It does seem, however, that TUGgers are increasingly reporting that difficult reservations are often easier to get with DC points than traditional Weeks. I'm not sure anyone has ever solved that question, but it could be that owners with high season/high point value weeks are more likely to elect for points (since they get a lot of points), so the supply of these high value weeks winds up being relatively greater in the Points inventory pool than the Weeks inventory pool. Perhaps Weeks owners are more conditioned to reserving early so the portion of the Weeks inventory that gets released at 13 months gets snapped up quickly. Perhaps points owners aren't quite so inclined to reserve at 13 months. Another factor might be the ability of owners of high-value points weeks to elect their weeks for points, but then use that high number of points to reserve two or three weeks at lower point value resorts/seasons, use the points for short stays, etc. Since there are so many different uses for points than just a one week reservation, the demand in the Points pool is spread more broadly and not so concentrated in the high demand, high value resorts/seasons. Just speculating...

What is this "pool" you speak of. I can't find it anywhere in my resort's governing documents.

 

[JIMinNC]

What is this "pool" you speak of. I can't find it anywhere in my resort's governing documents.

"pool" may be a poor choice word. Basically what I mean is that the DC points inventory is managed separately from the Weeks inventory - i.e. - Points reservations come from Trust inventory plus weeks deposited into the DC Exchange Company. That structure is outlined in the DC Program docs. Weeks reservations come from weeks still in the traditional weeks system that have not been elected for points or other uses. As we've discussed/debated previously, how that translates into a specific interval's availability is shrouded in the opaqueness of the overall inventory management structure of MVC.

 

[SueDonJ]

Wyndham had a fixed/float full week exchange system, they maintained for a long while even after they introduced the points program. They then decided after so many years that members who want fixed week only trades and didn't convert to points well they can do it now through RCI or II and the stopped the Fixed week trade program. Give it a decade or less after DC is introduced and I might guess that the weeks side goes away and the DC side inventory is all that is left standing. Any remaining week inventory holders are just left to either convert finally or go to an external exchange company. My guess is the writing is on the wall, it will just take more years to get there.

Marriott Weeks exchanges (out of the owned resort/season/unit size) have always been processed through an external exchange company, either RCI or II. Marriott didn't offer a system-wide internal exchange option until the DC was introduced, i.e. the DC Exchange Company, but it's available only for DC Points exchanges. II is still the affiliated Weeks exchange conduit although since the DC inception, Weeks enrolled in the DC can be exchanged through a corporate II account with a different, less-expensive fee structure than the standard individual II account.

I think Marriott's Weeks and Points systems will continue to co-exist as they do now until the costs for managing Weeks-only ownerships becomes a drain on MVW, at which time they'll offer generous incentives to the existing Weeks Owners to sell their Weeks back to MVW, or, they'll remove the restrictions that make some Weeks ineligible for DC-enrollment and give Owners the choice to enroll or sell back. IMO that time is a long way away - there are many, many, many Marriott Weeks that aren't affiliated at all with the DC and they're still providing a healthy profit margin for MVW.

 

[dioxide45]

I think the issue with the Exchange Company, is that it really should be holding physical inventory. When an owner deposits their week for points, Marriott should be making a reservation and that inventory gets deposited. Just like with II. It shouldn't be inventory that is in flux and on an IOU. One problem with that is that an owner can elect points at 25 months before the first day of the use year. The problem is that a reservation can't even be made until 13 months at most. So what is actually getting deposited when an owner elects early, IOUs? What is the process for redeeming those IOUs?

 

[davidvel]

I think the issue with the Exchange Company, is that it really should be holding physical inventory. When an owner deposits their week for points, Marriott should be making a reservation and that inventory gets deposited. Just like with II. It shouldn't be inventory that is in flux and on an IOU. One problem with that is that an owner can elect points at 25 months before the first day of the use year. The problem is that a reservation can't even be made until 13 months at most. So what is actually getting deposited when an owner elects early, IOUs? What is the process for redeeming those IOUs?

Bingo. This is my point exactly. The "pool" of days/weeks referred to by JiminNC that is available to DC points members should only get its "water" from an actual reservation of such weeks by the Trust from the overall inventory; the same way you or I as week owners have to reserve. The same way that any weeks owner has to reserve. There should be no IOUs, "allocation", proportioning, etc., or other artificial management of the reservations.

This is how I view it in my mind, based on the governing documents and the DC's structure:

 

[davidvel]

One problem with that is that an owner can elect points at 25 months before the first day of the use year. The problem is that a reservation can't even be made until 13 months at most. So what is actually getting deposited when an owner elects early, IOUs? What is the process for redeeming those IOUs?

The way I see it (how it should happen), is the right to reserve an interval for the the deposited enrolled week simply assigns from the owner to the exchange co. It must hold it until is has a right to reserve it just like any other owner. No need for IOU, etc.

 

[JIMinNC]

I think the issue with the Exchange Company, is that it really should be holding physical inventory. When an owner deposits their week for points, Marriott should be making a reservation and that inventory gets deposited. Just like with II. It shouldn't be inventory that is in flux and on an IOU. One problem with that is that an owner can elect points at 25 months before the first day of the use year. The problem is that a reservation can't even be made until 13 months at most. So what is actually getting deposited when an owner elects early, IOUs? What is the process for redeeming those IOUs?

Bingo. This is my point exactly. The "pool" of days/weeks referred to by JiminNC that is available to DC points members should only get its "water" from an actual reservation of such weeks by the Trust from the overall inventory; the same way you or I as week owners have to reserve. The same way that any weeks owner has to reserve. There should be no IOUs, "allocation", proportioning, etc., or other artificial management of the reservations.

This is how I view it in my mind, based on the governing documents and the DC's structure:
View attachment 3166

We actually don't know that this is or isn't they way it works. There have been two schools of thought suggested earlier in this thread (and in a number of other threads in past months/years). One school of thought says that MVC actually does book and reserve specific intervals for use by the DC at the resorts based on the weeks owned by the Trust and the weeks deposited by owners into the Exchange Company (davidvel's example). The other line of thinking says that they don't actually pre-reserve/designate the exact intervals, but that their reservation system just ensures that Weeks and Points owners get proportional access to the various intervals/check-in days, and the actual requests determine what's available any given day. That has been debated ad-nauseum, but the reality is we just don't have a window into how the process actually works. Some have even suggested that these kinds of reservation or allocation processes could even violate the old Weeks system reservation procedures and covenants. I have to think that Marriott feels they are on sound legal footing with whatever they do, so unless someone challenges their processes in court and the processes are uncovered during legal discovery proceedings, we will likely never know how it all works.

While it's just speculation on my part, I could see how dioxide45's early election scenario could function under either scenario. For example, if you are one who buys into the theory that MVC actually reserves specific inventory for use by DC members (per davidvel's post just above), then any weeks elected prior to 12-13 months could just be designated for assignment to the DC points system, and when the reservation window for that week rolls around, MVC "claims" a week for the DC system, just as they do for Trust-owned weeks (as outlined in davidvel's diagram). On the other hand, if you buy into the "proportional allocation" theory, then any weeks that are elected prior to the 12-13 month windows just increase the DC points system's proportion or allocation when DC owners go to make their reservations whenever their windows open. Irrespective of which scenario is legal or not under the governing docs, it would seem that the only practical difference to owners of the two possible approaches is that under the "Marriott pre-reserve" scenario, Marriott determines which intervals will be available to DC owners, but in the second "allocation" scenario, the DC owners themselves choose which intervals they select, subject only to limitations imposed by Marriott to ensure that neither Weeks nor Points owners are disadvantaged.

 

[ljmiii]

We actually don't know that this is or isn't they way it works. There have been two schools of thought suggested earlier in this thread (and in a number of other threads in past months/years)...

Indeed...I can remember this discussion a couple of years ago as it affected the 'magic trick' of an owner of a week normally reservable at 12 months electing that week into DPs and then making a 13-month reservation.

But I've been thinking about this issue of the increasing difficulty of making 13 month reservations and my opinion is that the 'pre-reserving' of trust weeks for DP use is only a part of the problem - perhaps a small one in resorts like MOC. The larger problem is that new buyers of MVCI - each year's 'noobies' - buy DPs now. And so, for the most part, a resale week buyer is a relatively sophisticated one. And the pool of weeks used as weeks is being held by ever increasingly knowledgeable owners. Who often have ever increasing number of weeks and can consecutively reserve their weeks into the far-er future.

The way MVCI chose to implement DPs - weeks have to be enrolled, don't yield the number of DPs they are worth when elected, and lose their enrollment when sold - has exacerbated this issue. But I don't think we need to look for additional 'evils' beyond the ones established in the creation of the DP system.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Follow the money. . .

The skim is profit to MVCI. For sake of illustration, I'll set the skim at 16.67%. That means, if one converts his owned week every year, and used the points to buy back at the same resort/season each year, for every 5 years he converts, he would pay for 6 years worth of MFs, (and not have any vacation for the 6th year.)

That "6th" week is available for MVCI to use as they see fit, for their profit. They could use it for a DP reservation, for which they get MF's on the DP points, for a week that already has the MFs paid for, causing those DP MFs to be pure profit, or renting it out for cash, which is straightforward profit.

That is the system as it was initially set up. I can't believe that MVCI is "Shocked, shocked, to find at profit embedded in the system". It would be a way to make a profit off of existing week owners, that they wouldn't get otherwise.

But it only works if enrolled weeks owners can only get the week they want via DP and not by week reservation.

Which is exactly the occurrence we see here.

Like I said, follow the money. . .

 

[MOXJO7282]

I advise you to escalate this situation to a higher level of management.

So the latest is I did question the availability and spoke to a very nice agent who said she would keep checking for me. I really didn't think she would follow through but to my pleasant surprise I received 3 emails today where she secured me 3 late Feb weeks for 3 of my OV weeks and said she would keep looking for President's week for the 2 OF and other OV unit. I'm not sure if it is because I'm platinum or an isolated excellent CSR but I think this is absolutely fantastic customer service and made sure to send in a kudos to the CSR's supervisor.

Now i'll hope that i can secure the rest at the 12 month window for Pres week or maybe my friend will find them before then.

 

[GregT]

A few years ago when I was trying to figure out the inventory system, Customer Advocacy told me that Marriott will "forecast" how many weeks in the coming year will be redeemed for Elected Points and for MRPs, and will only release what is left for week owner reservations -- releasing 50% at Month 13 and 50% at Month 12. This approach made sense, and I hoped their forecasts were reasonably accurate.

If this is still the approach, which I expect that it is, and Marriott's forecasts is now based on multiple years of actual experience, then we may also being seeing the impact of more enrolled weeks being redeemed for points, which in addition to whatever is in the Trust, will limit the number of weeks released at Month 13.

Unfortunately, we will never know for sure, but this was the experience I had back in February 2015 that bummed me out and made me realize that it would be tough to predict availability of traditional weeks.

I don't know if Joe ever got his week, but if not, I hope it comes up at Month 12.

Best,

Greg

 

[m61376]

I was told the same as you were told by the head of Customer Advocacy at the time. Of course, we have to be hopeful that they are carrying through. It may be that as more legacy weeks turn over that there's a higher percentage of remaining owners using their weeks consecutively, as a winter retreat. I know in Aruba there are many Northeasterners who stay for multiple weeks instead of being a Florida snowbird.

Joe- while of course that's very, very nice of the CS rep., the one problem I see with having her book late February weeks for you is that will preclude you from booking online at the 12 month mark. Of course, you can book by calling in, but I've found repeatedly that I have booked while the CS rep. is basically looking up my information when I've booked online while calling in. If you can utilize the late Feb. weeks that's one thing, but if you need one or more weeks for personal use while the kids are off from school, you might want to consider canceling them and trying yourself online, perhaps with multiple electronic devices so that you can be doing each week rapidly without having to go back to the selection screen. Just wanted to point that out in case you hadn't considered it, although it in no way takes away from the CS's service.

 

[MOXJO7282]

So over the weekend I had a previous client contact me about 2 weeks and a studio for March 3rd to March 17 so all my effort to get Pres week was not entirely needed and yesterday I got on the phone myself and got almost everything I needed for her using a Feb 25th to start and then trying for a Mar 3rd unit and (2) Mar 10 units. Got everything but the 2nd unit for March 10th which I was going to split for the studio. I also asked my CSR if I could then cancel the Feb 25 and she said yes so yesterday I got the 2 of the 3 March units I wanted.

So the 13 month weeks, at least for MOC, are definitely not as available as they previously have been for sure because it's one thing not to get a Pres week but then yesterday I couldn't get the 2nd March 10th even this far out. I see some obvious reasons so it could be just an aberration and I'm not complaining just sharing my outcome. Now at 12 months I hope to get Pres weeks for remaining OV and OFs and the 2nd March 10th for the studio my client wants.

 

[davidvel]

A few years ago when I was trying to figure out the inventory system, Customer Advocacy told me that Marriott will "forecast" how many weeks in the coming year will be redeemed for Elected Points and for MRPs, and will only release what is left for week owner reservations -- releasing 50% at Month 13 and 50% at Month 12. This approach made sense, and I hoped their forecasts were reasonably accurate.

If this is still the approach, which I expect that it is, and Marriott's forecasts is now based on multiple years of actual experience, then we may also being seeing the impact of more enrolled weeks being redeemed for points, which in addition to whatever is in the Trust, will limit the number of weeks released at Month 13.

Unfortunately, we will never know for sure, but this was the experience I had back in February 2015 that bummed me out and made me realize that it would be tough to predict availability of traditional weeks.

I don't know if Joe ever got his week, but if not, I hope it comes up at Month 12.

Best,

Greg

Greg,
I still don't understand what "will only release" (or will hold back) means. Can you explain in the context of my post above?