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Understanding Redemption Options for SO from Resale Units

Ken555

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Let's back up and review this again.

I have done a lot of analysis between SVV and WKV.

Yet you compare the very expensive 81k week. How extensive was your analysis?

The difference between the 81K PP 2BR WKV and the 81K Platinum 2BR SVV is only $3.35 per 1000 SOs. So on an annual basis, the MFs at SVV will only cost $271.48 more than if you owned the same amount of SOs at WKV. Given that, if you get real lucky and can pick up the WKV for $12,000, it would take over 40 years before you broke even. This is based on the assumption that the 2BR SVV would cost you $1,000 and you paid an $11,000 premium to have WKV.

Even comparing the best value MF/SO of WKV to the worst value MF/SO at SVV, the break even is near 30 years.

That assumes no resale value of the WKV 2-bed PP week, which I think is quite unrealistic.

Given the above. I simply can't see how it makes sense to buy WKV. The only thing going for it is the rental potential. But if your just buying to use, go for SVV Bella or Key West.

Um...no.

Fair enough. I compared like for like, that is why I went with the 81,000 SOs. Perhaps the number of years would be less as I doubt those sell for $12,000? If anyone knows how much the 1BR Premium WKV sell for, I could provide a more accurate number.

If we look at the 148K 2BR LO PP WKV and compare it to the 3BR LO Platinum SVV Key West. The MF per SO is $4.79 cheaper for the 148K WKV. If you pay the same $11,000 premium to buy WKV, the break even is at 15 years.

It's not quite that simple.

I've listed below the weeks you mention and include the details from the MF database. Note that the SVV Key West 3-bed info is highly suspect and no info exists in the db for 2017. This also assumes this is the first VSN ownership week (and has the requisite $140 annual fee for club membership).

WKV 2-bed Platinum Plus; 148,100 StarOptions
MF: $1,437.98
Tax: $56.79
VSN Club Fee: $140
= $1634.77
Price per 1,000 StarOptions: $11.04

SVV Bella 2-bed Platinum; 81,000 StarOptions
MF: $1,027.07
Tax: $161.99
VSN Club Fee: $140
= $1,329.06
Price per 1,000 StarOptions: $16.41

SVV Key West 2-bed Platinum; 81,000 StarOptions
MF: $990.90
Tax: $153.54
VSN Club Fee: $140
= $1,284.44
Price per 1,000 StarOptions: $15.86

SVV Key West 3-bed Platinum (1-bed Premium & 2, 1-bed units); 139,700 StarOptions
MF: $1782.82
Tax: $297.73 (using 2015 property tax info)
VSN Club Fee: $140 (database shows it at $165 but that doesn't make sense to me)
= $2,220.55
Price per 1,000 StarOptions: $15.89

Normalizing this to 148,100 StarOptions, though this isn't quite practical, the results are:

WKV: $1,634.77
SVV Bella: $2,430.05 ($795.28/year)
SVV Key West 2-bed: $2,348.46 ($713.69/year)
SVV Key West 3-bed (2016): $2,354.07 ($719.30/year)

Unfortunately, I don't think we should rely upon the 3-bed MF from the database. There is only one record for 2015 and 2016 and the data is:

2015
MF: $1,745.72
Property Tax: $297.73
Club Fee: $159

2016
MF: $1,782.82
Proertly Tax: <no data>
Club Fee: $165

Does anyone have access to the 3-bed MF and property tax info so we can validate this entry? I don't think we should rely upon it for this discussion until we confirm the details.

In any case, it should be apparent that WKV is the more affordable long-term purchase. It's also important to consider that WKV has retained its resale value quite well over the years. My original plan was to hold it for 10 years, and I've posted several times details on how my particular ownership has developed and cost since then. I'm into my 12th year now and have no intention of selling anytime soon.

My approach when purchasing is to anticipate a realistic resale value in 10 years and build in the loss/gain to the nightly/annual cost in order to determine which is the best purchase. SVV deeds seem to be quite inexpensive, but I don't follow it closely. What are the current resale rates for these weeks? What did they command 10 years ago?

Let's assume we would lose $5,000 equity in WKV 2-bed PP over 10 years and the SVV deeds are FREE. Based on today's prices, I think it wouldn't be that much loss of value in WKV but none of us know what the value will be in 10 years. Even so, owning WKV for 10-years would save considerably compared to these other resorts, even when the SVV deed is FREE.

Savings owning WKV compared to SVV over 10-years, based on the normalized 1K SOs (which is impractical!):
SVV Bella 2-bed: $2,952.77
SVV Key West 2-bed: $2,136.94
SVV Key West 3-bed (using the database info and likely incorrect): $2,192.99

Or, let's assume a loss of $2,500 equity in WKV 2-bed PP over just five year. The savings for owning WKV instead of these others would be:

Savings owning WKV compared to SVV over 5-years, based on the normalized 1K SOs (which is impractical!):
SVV Bella 2-bed: $1,476.38
SVV Key West 2-bed: $1,068.47
SVV Key West 3-bed (using the database info and likely incorrect): $1,096.50

Update on my own historical MF expenses of my WKV 2-bed PP week:

Total SVN/VSN nights over 12 years (2006-2017): 238
Average nightly cost: $74.38
Assuming a $5,000 loss of equity, my nightly cost increases to $95.37
Actual MF/Tax/SVN fees from 2006-2017: $17,701.96
Average MF/Tax/SVN fees: $1,475.16
Average cost per 1k SOs: $9.96

Sure, SVV may be a good option to test the waters for a new owner but only if they are convinced they will go through the process of selling and buying WKV if they want to have the lowest cost over the long term. Obviously, this approach isn't for everyone, but based on this info it certainly seems to indicate that WKV 2-bed PP is the least expensive method for buying into VSN.

This also assumes the owner will be using the week, not renting it. Obviously the variables for renting are too great to make any easy assumptions. However, renting even just one prime week once in the anticipated 10-year ownership would influence the overall cost.

If I'm incorrect, please update this. It's certainly possible I included an error in my calculations!
 
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dioxide45

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Your calculations appear to be correct. My analysis is looking at every SVV unit and season compared to every WKV unit and season. My prior analysis also ignores the VSN fee, but I have pulled that in to my spreadsheet now. It really doesn't have much of a difference either way.

The 81K unit really doesn't have a very expensive MF/SO. Though it is a couple dollars higher per 1000 SOs. Another issue there is that when you are buying a small amount, the payoff is so much longer. The more you can save per 1000 SOs and the more 1000 SOs you own, the better the return. I also picked the 81K unit since it seemed to be the only one that matched up between SVV and WKV with the same number of SOs. So no normalization was necessary. Still, you are right, it was a poor week to use for the analysis.

In fact, the lowest cost per SO is the regular 1BR unit at $10.70 per 1000 SOs. This is compared to what you have the WKV 2BR-LO PP at $11.04. For some reason, I am coming up with $11.11 for 2BR-LO PP WKV. I am showing the MF to be $10 higher there at $1,504.78 instead of your $1,594.77. The return on this could be better than the 2BR-LO WKV, as long as you owned a lot of them.

Obviously my calculations were all arriving by using what is essentially a $0 resale price. We certainly can't predict the future. Reading back on some old threads in 2006, it seemed that SVV 2BR Platinum may have been selling in the $6000 range. So they certainly were hit harder than WKV. The thing now is that they really can't fall any further. The most one could lose on it would be their purchase price, and given how these sell for about $1000-$1500, there isn't very much to lose. The same can't be said for WKV. Remember, past results should be no indicator of future results ;). I am not saying that they would ever go to $0. When I am looking at a timeshare purchase, I am considering that any money I am spending is sunk cost. What if I own it till I die? I am getting no resale value from the week at all.

If you want to see my analysis spreadsheet, shoot me a PM and I can email it to you. I have tried to capture all of the different mandatory options. Though there are lots of holes since I have mainly been concentrating on SVV and WKV. There may be cheaper MF/1000 options out there than the 1BR standard unit at WKV, but I just have not come across them yet.
 

Ken555

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The main problem with the 1-bed WKV platinum plus units (either size) is that they are extremely rare.

A $0 resale value only makes sense for certain purchasers, but still isn't very realistic. If you do own it a long time, as you reason, then WKV still makes more sense than SVV since I would assume that would be more than a few years...and even then it is more than likely that it will have some resale value.

I think the only reason to buy SVV is if the intention is to use the network for just a few years and then sell/give away the week. It is a cheap way of experiencing the VSN resorts, without committing any large amount up front. Obviously that would be an advantage to some more than others. The trick is not ending up keeping it for a long time, since we know it's not as affordable over many years.


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Ken555

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Since we got way into the weeds here, I think it's prudent to also mention in this thread that my earlier post doesn't account for any loss income from opportunity cost of the initial WKV deed purchase amount. Certainly this is an individual consideration but worthy of a reminder. If you have an investment opportunity where you may earn a reasonable rate it would have a big impact on the total and flip the advantage to SVV.


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DavidnRobin

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Both intrinsic and extrinsic considerations should be made in buying and owning resale.
There is no one-size-fits-all scenario, and important to look at more than just purchase price and MF/SO.

I own two 1 Bd Plat+ WKV (81K SO each), and have for over 10 years. These have turned out to be profitable and have help offset my very high MFs at my other resorts. While a person may not need to consider rental value - it still goes to overall value. I would not own SVV for many reasons. A main one is that I only own where I would want to stay. YMMV
 

maddog497

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From the perspective of someone just trying to figure this all out, I think most would plan for the worst and hope for the best. Picking up a SVV for little to no cost vs $10-$12k at a minimum can be way more easy to justify if both parties are at separate ends of commitment or uncertain at best.

Yes, WKV may have resale value that will make the MF comparison difficult to compare but when you are first taking the plunge it is difficult to quantify that.

A lot of good information here.
 

Ken555

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From the perspective of someone just trying to figure this all out, I think most would plan for the worst and hope for the best. Picking up a SVV for little to no cost vs $10-$12k at a minimum can be way more easy to justify if both parties are at separate ends of commitment or uncertain at best.

Yes, WKV may have resale value that will make the MF comparison difficult to compare but when you are first taking the plunge it is difficult to quantify that.

A lot of good information here.

I don't think anyone would objectively dispute that those interested in a significant investment in a timeshare always consider it the best financial purchase decision. After all, the entire market of timeshares exist because most buyers are on vacation and don't think about the details sufficiently.

Resale buyers tend to be different. Many of us do consider all the options before buying, and still many make a purchase knowing it's not necessarily the absolute best option yet the best choice for their particular circumstances. I think this is the point you're trying to make.

There is no absolute best option for every circumstance. My posts, and this topic tends to repeat itself every year or two here, is that strictly from a realistic financial perspective WKV is one of the best choices, if not the best. Yet, it's easy for it not to be the best choice for all if only by considering the up front investment vs SVV. After all, if you can reliably earn even just 5% on the purchase price you can more than pay for the extra MF SVV demands. Of course, that has its own risk that you need to consider.


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lizap

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Well said. I think if the initial cost of 16-18k isn't an issue, WKV remains the best option for most.
 

DavidnRobin

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Or invest in the stock market prior to a recession and potentially lose. A monkey could invest in the stock market since 2010 and have made money. The goal is to increase wealth as well as to preserve assets (especially in this oversold market). Very few make money in a down market.

IMO - TSing is about investing in vacation. One of the few truths that came from a TS Salesperson's mouth. For those not in the TS resale/renting business, TS weeks (and luxuries in general) should only be bought with disposable income. Use investment money for financial investments, and not confuse the two. If VSE/VSN fell apart or became unaffordable (which seems to common here on TUG) - I could deal with losing my TSs. If my investment assets collapsed - it would be devastating. Again... IMO YMMV
 

DeniseM

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I agree with Dave - investment funds and vacation funds are two completely different things.

Timeshares are a depreciating luxury purchase:
-If you have to finance a timeshare, you should not buy one.
-If you have financial problems, live paycheck to paycheck, and pay the minimum on your credit card each month, you should not buy a timeshare.
-If the maintenance fee (which usually comes about the same time as the Chrismas bills) may be a hardship for you, you should not buy a timeshare.
-If you are buying a timeshare instead of funding your retirement, emergency savings account, and paying off your credit cards, you should not buy a timeshare.
 

DavidnRobin

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Time to decide if I continue to rent WKV - or start attaching to our WKORV and WPORV stays - or maybe longer WSJ stays... ? ~$950/week in a 1Bd - not as good as LMRs, but... Ah the sweet smell of Retirement... soon come?
 

DavidnRobin

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I agree with Dave - investment funds and vacation funds are two completely different things.

Timeshares are a depreciating luxury purchase:
-If you have to finance a timeshare, you should not buy one.
-If you have financial problems, live paycheck to paycheck, and pay the minimum on your credit card each month, you should not buy a timeshare.
-If the maintenance fee (which usually comes about the same time as the Chrismas bills) may be a hardship for you, you should not buy a timeshare.
-If you are buying a timeshare instead of funding your retirement, emergency savings account, and paying off your credit cards, you should not buy a timeshare.

^^^^ this ^^^^

Otherwise - just rent from an Owner - there are tons out there. Might be a better approach any way.
Doesn't mean not to take Vacations - just not tied to the endlessly increasing fees AND taxes.
 

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I read through this whole thread and really enjoyed all the analysis. You guys are amazing! I have to say that for me the SVV Bella was the way to go. While yes the SOs are more expensive on a per $1000 basis per MF. The biggest benefit here was purchase price. While yes it is true if you invest prior to a recession in the stock market you are going to lose money but ONLY if you sell. I have funds that looked ugly as sin during the crash and the best thing I did was add to them and ride it out.... The way I look at it is this the money that I didn't tie up in a WKV purchase can stay invested and make up the difference for my SOs. Now this money is in conservative diversified funds not Bitcoin. So I am not worried about losing my initial investment. Over time I know I will eventually be able to pull it all out. But I can't guarantee that with a purchase of WKV. What happens if the resort breaks off of the system and goes independent. Highly unlikely and I know that is a possible risk ( or at least I swear I read that it is a possible risk) with all resorts including SVV. Then resale values would plummet.... Not to mention Arizona is not somewhere we frequent. But I picked up my SVVs for basically closing costs. So even if I had to pay someone $500 to take off my hands what did it cost me? And worst case scenario we genuinely enjoy going to Orlando we have a 3 and 6 year old daughter so we will be going for a while. Orlando is expanding all over its truly unreal in the past 10 years what we have witnessed. I know its nothing compared to past 20-30 years but I have been going for 10 and I can honestly say we have a blast there even with out visiting the parks. My wife and I will shoot down (2 hour flight roughly) even for a long weekend in the Winter just to get away a bit. I even looked at buying a house in Champions Gate.

My point is this yes without questions WKV is the smartest purchase as far as ongoing fees. But I honestly think SVV Bella or Key West on certain scales are neck and neck with it as far as overall money allocation.
 

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I read through this whole thread and really enjoyed all the analysis. You guys are amazing! I have to say that for me the SVV Bella was the way to go. While yes the SOs are more expensive on a per $1000 basis per MF. The biggest benefit here was purchase price. While yes it is true if you invest prior to a recession in the stock market you are going to lose money but ONLY if you sell. I have funds that looked ugly as sin during the crash and the best thing I did was add to them and ride it out.... The way I look at it is this the money that I didn't tie up in a WKV purchase can stay invested and make up the difference for my SOs. Now this money is in conservative diversified funds not Bitcoin. So I am not worried about losing my initial investment. Over time I know I will eventually be able to pull it all out. But I can't guarantee that with a purchase of WKV. What happens if the resort breaks off of the system and goes independent. Highly unlikely and I know that is a possible risk ( or at least I swear I read that it is a possible risk) with all resorts including SVV. Then resale values would plummet.... Not to mention Arizona is not somewhere we frequent. But I picked up my SVVs for basically closing costs. So even if I had to pay someone $500 to take off my hands what did it cost me? And worst case scenario we genuinely enjoy going to Orlando we have a 3 and 6 year old daughter so we will be going for a while. Orlando is expanding all over its truly unreal in the past 10 years what we have witnessed. I know its nothing compared to past 20-30 years but I have been going for 10 and I can honestly say we have a blast there even with out visiting the parks. My wife and I will shoot down (2 hour flight roughly) even for a long weekend in the Winter just to get away a bit. I even looked at buying a house in Champions Gate.

My point is this yes without questions WKV is the smartest purchase as far as ongoing fees. But I honestly think SVV Bella or Key West on certain scales are neck and neck with it as far as overall money allocation.


What your analysis fails to mention is that you would likely have a much easier time selling WKV should you decide to sell at some point...
 

vacationtime1

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It also fails to mention that WKV can be rented for 2-3x MF's. It is one of the few timeshares that returns an investment rate ROI on capital if rented.
 

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But again that takes out of the equation the main purpose of my purchasing the SOs to begin with and thats to use them. If out of 52 weeks of the year if I cannot figure out a way to use 81k SOs every year and now 162k SOs every other year then I am focusing on the wrong things in life. Part of my reason for purchasing is to force me to annually take a family vacation in a setting a resort like the ones we have access to. The goal is to hopefully vacation 3 times a year but the other two will be in smaller areas like Cape Cod... To often work gets in the way of enjoying life and 2 years ago I made a choice to make sure that I focus on family more.

So again I am not saying WKV is a wrong choice as I said from an ongoing MF standpoint on that aspect it is clearly a winner. Im just saying for me a little more goes into it then that.
 

lizap

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Again, your ability to eventually sell your TS should factor into your decision. Keep in mind Orlando is oversaturated with TSs..

But again that takes out of the equation the main purpose of my purchasing the SOs to begin with and thats to use them. If out of 52 weeks of the year if I cannot figure out a way to use 81k SOs every year and now 162k SOs every other year then I am focusing on the wrong things in life. Part of my reason for purchasing is to force me to annually take a family vacation in a setting a resort like the ones we have access to. The goal is to hopefully vacation 3 times a year but the other two will be in smaller areas like Cape Cod... To often work gets in the way of enjoying life and 2 years ago I made a choice to make sure that I focus on family more.

So again I am not saying WKV is a wrong choice as I said from an ongoing MF standpoint on that aspect it is clearly a winner. Im just saying for me a little more goes into it then that.
 

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Correct Orlando is saturated with TSs and it's also one of the most traveled to vacation destinations in the world.

But again your also assuming that WKV will hold its value ( I am not saying it will not). However my assumption with all TSs is that the risk is to the down side. So with all that being said the only point I am trying to make is that SVV should not be the black sheep that it is of the system. Personally I think for a lot of young families its honestly the most prudent location for them to purchase into.
 

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Correct Orlando is saturated with TSs and it's also one of the most traveled to vacation destinations in the world.

But again your also assuming that WKV will hold its value ( I am not saying it will not). However my assumption with all TSs is that the risk is to the down side. So with all that being said the only point I am trying to make is that SVV should not be the black sheep that it is of the system. Personally I think for a lot of young families its honestly the most prudent location for them to purchase into.

Why buy Orlando (and tie yourself down with perpetual MFs) when you can choose to rent from multiple Orlando resorts for the cost of annual MF?
 

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First to get into SOs and possibly stay elsewhere ( even if its in offseason which is when I prefer to travel anyways)
Second it much smoother and much easier having it in my own name that I could care less about a few dollars in savings. I'm already saving a nice amount off rack rate not to mention many there higher priced options.
Third We genuinely love going to Orlando, enjoy the resort itself and its location. I have been twice this year and its starting to feel like a second home.

Why buy WKV if you never plan on going to Arizona? For cheaper MFs? Please I mean that with no offense again just trying to paint a picture here. I could have sworn the number one objective to buying TSs is to buy where you want to stay? I realize Orlando is not for everyone but I have run the numbers and for the convenience that owning there gives me along with some savings and the possibility to stay elsewhere to me its a home run!
 

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Regardig the prices of 257,700 StarOptions at St John Virgin Grand. I see them on RedWeek for $29,000 to $37,000. Other sites as high as $60,000.

The rental potential of WKV is quite good. Weeks go for $4,000 in Spring training season.

Markus

I assume the $4,000 Spring training season week would be for the full 2BR LO? Any idea how much for the 1BR premium or 1BR?
 

vacationtime1

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I assume the $4,000 Spring training season week would be for the full 2BR LO? Any idea how much for the 1BR premium or 1BR?

I've rented mine for between $2,200 and $2,400 each of the last three years.

I think $4,000 is a bit high for the entire 2bd lockout (except for a commercial renter with a real website, etc.); the small side is just not that popular. I would expect $3,700-$3,800 for the entire unit.
 

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2,224
Points
698
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Resorts Owned
WKORV OFD (Maui)
WPORV (Kauai)
WSJ-VGV (St. John)
WKV (Scottsdale)
I am not suggesting to buy WKV. Just that if your goal is Orlando - consider renting (not just VSE, but other resort systems). I stayed in Marriott Sabal (2Bd) for $225/nt from Marriott.
If you want to buy VSE Orlando - then buy Mandatory resale and get 81K SO.
 

DanTUG

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2017
Messages
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I've rented mine for between $2,200 and $2,400 each of the last three years.

I think $4,000 is a bit high for the entire 2bd lockout (except for a commercial renter with a real website, etc.); the small side is just not that popular. I would expect $3,700-$3,800 for the entire unit.

Got it. And if I have read the string correctly, you are renting a 1bd premium?

Also, if I understand things, you bought two 1bd premiums at WKV, right? Why that choice vs. a 2bd LO? Is it because you really don't want to stay in the 1bd or was there a compelling SO/MF reason?
 
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