[2014] Help! [HOA refusing to accept transfer to VSC LLC]

[rickandcindy23]

Sue, I am trying to figure out what point you are making. I read it through a few times, but it makes no sense. I think I should say hurrah for a management company that realizes the importance of transfer to a dues-paying member.

YES, we do have the right to deny the transfer of ownership to just anyone. It is our moral and ethical duty to the other owners. It just is. Whose rights are more important?

WE have the right to decide because WE are the owners stuck with weeks. So just because someone is stupid and doesn't have a clue what the heck they are doing, and they pay some scumbag company a large amount of money to take a timeshare, that doesn't mean that person transferred the week legally. We need to approve all transfers. It's becoming more and more important as a huge number of LLC's are being created every year to abandon timeshares.

Besides that, my own ownership at VC is RTU, so there is no deed. The transfer of ownership is signed by our president and our secretary. Our president will call an owner when the management company alerts him about an illegal transfer, and he will ask the owner why they are trying to transfer, and how did they find this person. We are not a cold, hard-hearted entity like Wyndham, Starwood or Marriott. I realize big company mentality is all some people know. We are different.

There are only six units, and we are on top of things. As a conscientious HOA board, we do provide an "out." If an owner pays $2,000 and dues are current, he/she can get out of the ownership. We are actually hoping we can get enough people to give back their weeks, so we can sell one of the townhouses for $500K, which is what they are worth as real estate, and we can consolidate owners into other units with a similar or better fixed rotating week. Then we will put that $500K into our reserves to pay for future roofs, decks and painting projects. It's a great plan. The ownership expires in 2032 anyway.

 

[rickandcindy23]

How did the disgruntled owner respond to that?

That is kind of ironic because he had just purchased a large WorldMark contract through a sales tour, so he said he is pretty bitter about timeshare right now. He's owned at Val Chatelle for 32 years and didn't learn a lesson on that purchase.

I find it hysterical when people from Denver get a mailing to attend a timeshare presentation in Breckenridge at the Hyatt, Hilton, or Grand Peak. $80K for a ski week and they sit there mulling it over. We cannot get $2,000 for our ski weeks. Our fees are lower, our units are larger, and we have valuable real estate to boot. It's how it is, and we know it, and we all just laugh. But we aren't on a mountain. We are in Frisco and about 15 minutes from the slopes.

 

[SueDonJ]

There are so many dynamics in play here, many folks focus on one or the other as it suits their argument (im not innocent in this regard either).

1. folks who think resorts should take units back no matter what.

2. folks who think owners should pay forever

3. folks who think its ok for folks to deed their timeshares to a bogus LLC for the purposes of abandoning it

4. folks who think its ok to just stop paying/declare bankrupcy and force the HOA to foreclose

5. folks who think there should be some grey area in which intervals are taken back on a per-case basis with various stipulations.



I believe that everyone out there falls into one or two of these camps. With owners looking to sell mostly in camp 1

and happy owners not the least bit interested in selling, along with resort developers/hoa's etc firmly in camp 2.

for those of you arguing that "llc's are a must because there arent any other options"....it is a bit misleading...because there is most certainly always an option to stop paying or declaring bankrupcy...but many gloss over this simply because this action actually has consequences for the owner who wants to break his or her financial obligation.

I don't know where I stand on your list but I know what I think about certain things.

The industry needs a "get-out" solution that is equally fair to owners and developers, which probably would likely be equally disliked by owners and developers. There should be some developer protection for owners who want out of a timeshare which can't even be given away for free. There shouldn't be an easy out for any and all owners that puts the financial responsibility solely back on the developers.

The Viking Ship model/mode is a nightmare so I'd like to see its purpose related to timeshares legislated out of existence. But as long as it exists, I'm not in favor of any timeshare entities refusing to allow ownership transfers to a VS unless the right to do that is protected by the specific t&c's or any state/federal regs.

Financial difficulty is such a demoralizing thing but I agree with you that bankruptcy exists as an option for a reason, and folks who find themselves in dire straits should use it despite the harm it will cause them, before causing harm to all the other owners at their timeshares.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I don't know where I stand on your list but I know what I think about certain things.

The industry needs a "get-out" solution that is equally fair to owners and developers, who cares about developers? which probably would likely be equally disliked by owners and developers. There should be some developer protection for owners who want out of a timeshare which can't even be given away for free. Developers cannot guarantee value, and how many go up in value? So how do you accomplish that? There shouldn't be an easy out for any and all owners that puts the financial responsibility solely back on the developers Seriously? Again I ask, who cares about the developers? They got theirs. It's the owners who are stuck with the problems later on. My Starwood bill has bad debt listed. That is people not paying.

The Viking Ship model/mode is a nightmare so I'd like to see its purpose related to timeshares legislated out of existence. But as long as it exists, I'm not in favor of any timeshare entities refusing to allow ownership transfers to a VS unless the right to do that is protected by the specific t&c's or any state/federal regs. Ridiculous statement. You don't care that your bill includes bad debt, and that a foreclosure process can be very costly to you personally to remove that week from the LLC that abandoned it?

Financial difficulty is such a demoralizing thing but I agree with you that bankruptcy exists as an option for a reason, and folks who find themselves in dire straits should use it despite the harm it will cause them, before causing harm to all the other owners at their timeshares.

One has to wonder how you would handle being on the BOD for an HOA dealing with these issues.

 

[e.bram]

Cindy:
Your ownership is essentially a coop situation with a lease and the management entity(not really an HOA)(no owners only lease holders) has more rights in restricting transfer of lease.
The case at hand is a condominium where the owner can transfer their ownership to a new owner except if a ROFR exists.

 

[daisy123]

I am so new to the whole timeshare thing! I did not understand what I was getting myself into -- I bought the Southwind management aka Spinnaker resorts back in 2005 (paid in full) and did not use it much. I got married in 2007 and my husband and I like the Summer Winds Resort so much better and decided to trade in my Southwind TS for it - which was part of the Summer Winds incentive for purchasing (they used the the Timeshare Trade-ins, LLC in Branson) which I assumed was legit since the Summer Winds were using them - and that trade-in paid part of the purchase price - our Summer Winds TS is paid in full. Now we both wish one of you were with us when we made that deal. Just received a bill today from Southwind - now asking for the 2014 MF and the 2015 MF and $100 late fee on top of that for a total of $1,287.00. From reading the forums and TUG - timeshares can be a joy if you know what you are doing. My husband and I at this time can't see the joy in it so far.

 

[DeniseM]

Hi Daisy - Thank you so much for coming back to update us.

We are curious about a few thing:

1) Did the resort (Southwind/Spinnaker) inform you that they would not accept the deed transfer to Timeshare Trade-ins?

2) Did you receive a maintenance fee bill for 2014, at the end of 2013 (the normal time)?

If so, what action did you take when either of these things happened?

 

[SueDonJ]

who cares about developers?

Developers cannot guarantee value, and how many go up in value? So how do you accomplish that?

Seriously? Again I ask, who cares about the developers? They got theirs. It's the owners who are stuck with the problems later on. My Starwood bill has bad debt listed. That is people not paying.

Ridiculous statement. You don't care that your bill includes bad debt, and that a foreclosure process can be very costly to you personally to remove that week from the LLC that abandoned it?

One has to wonder how you would handle being on the BOD for an HOA dealing with these issues.

Geeze, don't hold back the derision for those who might prefer a different timeshare model than you do.

It's like you say in your other post - we own completely different types of timeshares and so are coming at this from completely different perspectives. I like Marriott (and presumably, would like others similar to Marriott like Starwood and DVC etc) because I barely have to think about my timeshare beyond the rules for how/when to reserve it and whether or not I can afford it. They manage their resorts, they refurbish them on routine schedules according to an upheld standard, they offer amenities and activities that make visiting the resorts very pleasant, and when I don't want to deal with them anymore there are established resale markets, internal and external, that give me an out. Granted, I will never get for them an amount near to what Marriott charged for them, but they will never be worthless UNLESS Marriott stops managing them.

You don't have to wonder how I would deal with timeshare-related issues as a board member because it's my aim to never become one. It's why I bought at a developer-controlled resort and not an owner-controlled one, because I don't want any part of the responsibility for managing any aspect of the resorts and I also don't want to be at the mercy of an ownership group whose interests differ from mine. The POS that I previously mentioned stipulates all the ways that Marriott can manage the resorts, and outlines the protections and responsibilities of the developer, manager and owners. As long as I accept what's in the POS as the game plan, which I do, then things are good. If/when I don't like the game plan anymore, then I'm gone.

I do care that my Annual Budget includes a bad debt line item. It's inevitable, especially at a resort with +/- 200 units. But I would care more if owners were allowed unfettered deedbacks to the developer, Marriott, in numbers that would impact my ownership even more than what's happening now. I think it's unreasonable to ask that a developer would be expected to accept any and all deedbacks without either losing ridiculous amounts in their bottom line (which would lead to cuts in services or products, neither of which I want,) or, forcing owners to share with them in the bad debt. That's what happens now, after all, with bad debt expenses shared equally among all intervals. We're all responsible for the intervals we own, including Marriott for what they own. So no, I don't want it to be easier for bad debt expenses to be charged to the ownership at large, which is what I believe would happen if Marriott were forced to accept unfettered deedbacks.

It's like you say, Cindy, I'm not at all prepared to deal with this issue on a level that directly impacts my resorts, and it's quite obvious that you are. Thank goodness I bought what I did with the goal of not having any responsibility for the resort operations in mind, and thank goodness that your resort has you to perform up to the task. And I'm not being sarcastic or facetious or anything else that can be negatively interpreted - I truly think that you own and service exactly the type of timeshare that's right for you, and you do it well.

 

[SueDonJ]

Cindy:
Your ownership is essentially a coop situation with a lease and the management entity(not really an HOA)(no owners only lease holders) has more rights in restricting transfer of lease.
The case at hand is a condominium where the owner can transfer their ownership to a new owner except if a ROFR exists.

I think more than ROFR can be at play. If the t&c's say that the developer or HOA Board has the right to reject ownership transfers based on certain specific factors, then the assumption in this thread that the resort rejected the OP's resale could be true. The problem is that each resort has its own set of t&c's so there's no blanket "yes or no" answer that applies throughout the industry.

 

[daisy123]

DeniseM
1) Did the resort (Southwind/Spinnaker) inform you that they would not accept the deed transfer to Timeshare Trade-ins? Not at that time we transferred. Just when they started asking for their MF (about 2 months ago) is when they told us they would not accept.

2) Did you receive a maintenance fee bill for 2014, at the end of 2013 (the normal time)?
I can't remember if I did - I keep all paperwork that comes from both TS - I found the bill for the 2013 which I got at the end of 2012 - but do not see a paper bill for 2014 for the Southwind TS.

 

[DeniseM]

So the very first time you realized there was a problem was 2 mos. ago? You received no notice of any kind before that?

Do you know if they sent a 2014 maintenance fee bill to Timeshare Trade-ins, that was not paid?

 

[daisy123]

Yes, 2 months ago is when we were notified there was a problem.

I do not know if Southwind sent a MF bill to Timeshare Trade-ins - would either of them tell me if a bill was sent or a bill was received? I will asked both and see what answers they give.

 

[DeniseM]

Yes, 2 months ago is when we were notified there was a problem.

I do not know if Southwind sent a MF bill to Timeshare Trade-ins - would either of them tell me if a bill was sent or a bill was received? I will asked both and see what answers they give.

When you got the first notice 2 mos. ago - was it from a collection agency?

If Timeshare Trade-ins was the new owner, they should have received the 2014 maintenance fee bill. If it was sent to them, that would explain why it wasn't sent to you.

If it wasn't sent to them, why wasn't it sent to you at the normal time?

If it was sent to them, why didn't they pay it?

 

[CO skier]

Yes, 2 months ago is when we were notified there was a problem.

I do not know if Southwind sent a MF bill to Timeshare Trade-ins - would either of them tell me if a bill was sent or a bill was received? I will asked both and see what answers they give.

No 2014 maintenance fee bills?

No past due notices in the spring of 2014?

2 mo. ago is the first you heard of a problem (and, presumably, from the collection agency?)

It sounds as though the timeshare was transferred out of your name, but the first thing you need to do (on your own, or with the help of an attorney) is get a copy of the county recorded deed to determine who is listed as the current owner.

The last thing you want to do at this point is send the $800 to the collection agency or the HOA, if you are not the owner of record.

 

[DeniseM]

the first thing you need to do (on your own, or with the help of an attorney) is get a copy of the county recorded deed to determine who is listed as the current owner.

Why do you need an attorney for this? Deeds are public records and the OP should be able to get a copy of the deed from the County Records office website, or by calling them. There may be a fee, but it doesn't require an attorney.

Daisy: Please note that just because the deed has been filed at the County Records office in the name of Timeshare Trade-Ins, does not mean that the deed has been transferred out of your name at the resort - these are two separate steps.

However, to find out whose name the deed is in, you need to know what county it was registered in (usually the county where the resort is) and then you can google the county records office and find out if you can search deeds online, or if you need to call them, and get a hard copy. You would just tell them that you sold a timeshare, and you need to see if it was transferred out of your name. You will need to have your deed in hand, so you have the info. they will need to look it up.

 

[CO skier]

Why do you need an attorney for this? Deeds are public records and the OP should be able to get a copy of the deed from the County Records office website, or by calling them. There may be a fee, but it doesn't require an attorney.

Some people have no idea how to search for and obtain a deed.

At the same time, for a reasonable initial consultation fee (and maybe for free) they could get some idea where they stand.

The OP may be in a serious mess. The sooner they get some professional help, the better.

That's why.

 

[DeniseM]

I disagree - I am not going to pay an attorney to do simple things I can do for myself.

Even if the OP decides to goes to an attorney, it makes a lot more sense to go in with all the facts and documents, than to go see an attorney without the necessary info.

 

[daisy123]

When you got the first notice 2 mos. ago - was it from a collection agency? No it was from Southwinds by telephone. Told them on the phone we did not own the TS and who did - they said okay and hung up - then 2 months later received a letter from a collection agency.

First thing I will do is find out whose name the deed is in...I will keep you posted. Thank you all for your advice.

 

[CO skier]

I disagree - I am not going to pay an attorney to do simple things I can do for myself.

Even if the OP decides to goes to an attorney, it makes a lot more sense to go in with all the facts and documents, than to go see an attorney without the necessary info.

But you are not the OP.

"Seek legal advice" in post #2 is the best advice in this whole thread. The rest is just speculation and some dangerously bad advice that would make an attorney's job much more difficult, if that becomes necessary.

 

[DeniseM]

dangerously bad advice

Please tell me what "danger" the OP is in. She has already been turned over to collections - so what are you referring to?

 

[daisy123]

Many have asked -- The TS is Stormy Point in Branson, MO -- Summer Winds is the TS management company.

 

[DeniseM]

When you got the first notice 2 mos. ago - was it from a collection agency? No it was from Southwinds by telephone. Told them on the phone we did not own the TS and who did - they said okay and hung up - then 2 months later received a letter from a collection agency.

First thing I will do is find out whose name the deed is in...I will keep you posted. Thank you all for your advice.

But Southwind Management is saying they do not accept how Timeshare Trade-ins did the paperwork

When and how did you find out that Southwind/Summerwinds would not accept the deed, because of the way the paperwork was done? (As stated above.)

 

[daisy123]

By telephone - my husband returned a phone message -- we did not receive an official letter or anything like that. All by phone - then the collection agency letter.

 

[DeniseM]

By telephone - my husband returned a phone message -- we did not receive an official letter or anything like that. All by phone - then the collection agency letter.

So there were two different phone calls? When did you talk to them again?

Because you said:

Told them on the phone we did not own the TS and who did - they said okay and hung up - then 2 months later received a letter from a collection agency.

 

[daisy123]

They made the call, we were not home, they left a message and that was when my husband returned the call and told them we did not own the TS anymore, the person said okay BUT she did say "we will get back with you" - which turned out to be the collection agency letter I am assuming - they never did call again or if they did they did not leave a message.