[2014] Help! [HOA refusing to accept transfer to VSC LLC]

[rickandcindy23]

It's like you say in your other post - we own completely different types of timesharesReally? Have you looked at the list of timeshares I own? and so are coming at this from completely different perspectives. I like Marriott (and presumably, would like others similar to Marriott like Starwood and DVC etc) because I barely have to think about my timeshare beyond the rules for how/when to reserve it and whether or not I can afford it. They manage their resorts, they refurbish them on routine schedules according to an upheld standard, they offer amenities and activities that make visiting the resorts very pleasant, and when I don't want to deal with them anymore there are established resale markets, internal and external, that give me an out. Granted, I will never get for them an amount near to what Marriott charged for them, but they will never be worthless UNLESS Marriott stops managing them.

Starwood doesn't have an easy out, so you might stay away from SBP and SDO and the Vistana resorts. Those are being given away on eBay.

You think Val Chatelle is the only timeshare I own?

Have you looked at the list I own?

<-------------------------

I just paid my $5,000+ Marriott MF's yesterday and you don't even want to know how many Starwood weeks I own.

I bought worthless timeshares. Worthless to the people who bought and dumped them.

Also own Wyndham. We are Platinum. It's worthless.

Also own Worldmark. Liking it--not worthless at all.

Also own Shell. Got it free on eBay. Worthless.

So I guess I do have some of those timeshares run by the big companies that you trust to take care of everything without a peep from you as to why your fees go up every year. Apparently you just trust Marriott to run things and increase your fees to cover whatever they need to make for their stockholders in profit. I question those fees, no matter who runs it.

 

[DeniseM]

They made the call, we were not home, they left a message and that was when my husband returned the call and told them we did not own the TS anymore, the person said okay BUT she did say "we will get back with you" - which turned out to be the collection agency letter I am assuming - they never did call again or if they did they did not leave a message.

When did they tell you that they would not accept the deed because of the way the paperwork was written?

But Southwind Management is saying they do not accept how Timeshare Trade-ins did the paperwork

It would be a good idea for you to sit down with all the records you have, and a calendar, and your husband, and put together a timeline of everything that happened.

 

[rickandcindy23]

They made the call, we were not home, they left a message and that was when my husband returned the call and told them we did not own the TS anymore, the person said okay BUT she did say "we will get back with you" - which turned out to be the collection agency letter I am assuming - they never did call again or if they did they did not leave a message.

Spinnaker usually wants a $2,500 transfer fee. This has been the case for several years. Michael Coley is an owner of a few of those weeks, and he loves using them for exchange but was disappointed they were asking that much to transfer. I think some is future maintenance fees.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169648&highlight=spinnaker+transfer

 

[SueDonJ]

Starwood doesn't have an easy out, so you might stay away from SBP and SDO and the Vistana resorts. Those are being given away on eBay.

You think Val Chatelle is the only timeshare I own?

Have you looked at the list I own?

<-------------------------

I just paid my $5,000+ Marriott MF's yesterday and you don't even want to know how many Starwood weeks I own.

I bought worthless timeshares. Worthless to the people who bought and dumped them.

Also own Wyndham. We are Platinum. It's worthless.

Also own Worldmark. Liking it--not worthless at all.

Also own Shell. Got it free on eBay. Worthless.

So I guess I do have some of those timeshares run by the big companies that you trust to take care of everything without a peep from you as to why your fees go up every year. Apparently you just trust Marriott to run things and increase your fees to cover whatever they need to make for their stockholders in profit. I question those fees, no matter who runs it.

Yes, I know you own at both owner- and developer-controlled resorts but the example you gave in this thread of a resort which does prohibit transfers to certain entities is that of one of your owner-controlled resorts. Do you think that the owners/board members at the developer-controlled resorts would be able to wield as much power as what you apparently can do at Val Chatelle?

There's a difference between blindly accepting as correct the power that a developer wields or any actions that they take, and recognizing when it's probably an exercise in futility to challenge them on the rights they hold which allow that power or those actions. Marriott's certainly not perfect (I don't think any timeshare entity is) so it's correct to say that they shouldn't be blindly trusted or given free reign to do whatever they want with no consideration for anything but the stockholders. If you think that's my mindset I'm obviously not getting my point across to you, because I agree with you that owners need to keep tabs on the fees no matter how much or how little power they have to control them. In my case I'm resigned to the fact that if/when the fees are out of whack with what the resorts offer, unless there are glaringly obvious steps that Marriott has taken against the t&c's then I'll walk away rather than try to take on the big bad Marriott machine. Someone else might choose differently and that's okay by me.

 

[tschwa2]

In my case I'm resigned to the fact that if/when the fees are out of whack with what the resorts offer, I'll walk away rather than try to take on the big bad Marriott machine. Someone else might choose differently and that's okay by me.

...and that is what developers who make rules count on when they do things like adding large transfer fees and requiring pre-paid MF's for new resale purchasers but not developer purchasers by amending the owners guide instead of the by-laws (which would probably require a super majority)- that they won't be challenged in court. Just because a developer hasn't been challenged and lost doesn't mean that what it is doing is right or legal. And then there are developers like Westgate who walk the possibly illegal side of things by making major rule changes without amending original by-laws. The count on not being challenged or if challenged that they can win by stalling and throwing as many legal road blocks to the proceeding counting that the little owner will run out of money to pursue the matter before the developer does.

 

[TUGBrian]

thanks for coming back to confirm the resort name and a few other details.

I am curious if I can get someone to talk to tomorrow via phone (at southwynd)

 

[bogey21]

We are actually hoping we can get enough people to give back their weeks, so we can sell one of the townhouses for $500K, which is what they are worth as real estate, and we can consolidate owners into other units with a similar or better fixed rotating week.

In years past we traded into Val Chatelle a number of times and always looked at it as if we were staying in an expensive condo for very little money. I hope you can pull this off.

George

PS Personally we liked being domiciled in small town Frisco. It is a great little town.

 

[bogey21]

Some people have no idea how to search for and obtain a deed.

All it takes to find out what to do is a call to the County Courthouse. They will tell you what you have to do. It's lots cheaper than hiring a lawyer to make the call for you.

George

 

[e.bram]

It is good to hear TUGers encouraging self-help.
We are not dealing PI(personal injury) cases here.

 

[tschwa2]

thanks for coming back to confirm the resort name and a few other details.

I am curious if I can get someone to talk to tomorrow via phone (at southwynd)

I may have missed it or she may have PM"D it to you but I still didn't see where she named the resort. Southwinds is the management arm for Spinnaker Resorts. There are 3 Spinnaker Resorts in Branson. There may also be one or two additional resorts that weren't developed by Spinnaker but are paying to use Southwinds as their management company.

The 3 Spinnaker resorts in Branson are: Palace View, Palace View Heights, and French Quarter.

 

[ace2000]

I may have missed it or she may have PM"D it to you but I still didn't see where she named the resort.

See post #96

 

[CO skier]

All it takes to find out what to do is a call to the County Courthouse. They will tell you what you have to do. It's lots cheaper than hiring a lawyer to make the call for you.

George

Changing a battery or the wiper blades on a car is easy, too, and cheaper than a mechanic, but many people prefer to pay someone else to do it for them. That is why I phrased the suggestion as "on your own, or with the help of an attorney".

 

[tschwa2]

Stormy Point managed by SummerWinds is where she bought the second TS that used Timeshare Trade in to "dispose" of her original (un-named) Spinnaker Timeshare.

The fact that the disposal company was (sanctioned and encouraged as) part of another developers sell is in issue in and of itself but it isn't the issue of the original TS refusing to accept the transfer out of the OP's name.


As a side note much of what we see on ebay is from a third party companies that work with developers to accept trade in's and then they sell or pay the ebay sellers to take the blocks of timeshares. I am not sure if the ebay sellers get more this way or through PCC's these days.

 

[Rent_Share]

...and that is what developers who make rules count on when they do things like adding large transfer fees and requiring pre-paid MF's for new resale purchasers but not developer purchasers by amending the owners guide instead of the by-laws (which would probably require a super majority)- that they won't be challenged in court. Just because a developer hasn't been challenged and lost doesn't mean that what it is doing is right or legal. And then there are developers like Westgate who walk the possibly illegal side of things by making major rule changes without amending original by-laws. TheY count on not being challenged or if challenged that they can win by stalling and throwing as many legal road blocks to the proceeding counting that the little owner will run out of money to pursue the matter before the developer does.

Which is the point I was trying to make in post 18

Although I appreciate their desire to look out the remaining owners, I would have to question their authority on solely a board vote the right to discriminate on who they will accept as a new owner and/OR how much they will require as a prepayment from various legal persons. As a condition of transfer.

Legal Person [URL="http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/person"]http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/person[/URL]

Until challenged in court the beat goes on

 

[SueDonJ]

...and that is what developers who make rules count on when they do things like adding large transfer fees and requiring pre-paid MF's for new resale purchasers but not developer purchasers by amending the owners guide instead of the by-laws (which would probably require a super majority)- that they won't be challenged in court. Just because a developer hasn't been challenged and lost doesn't mean that what it is doing is right or legal. And then there are developers like Westgate who walk the possibly illegal side of things by making major rule changes without amending original by-laws. The count on not being challenged or if challenged that they can win by stalling and throwing as many legal road blocks to the proceeding counting that the little owner will run out of money to pursue the matter before the developer does.

I edited while you were typing to say, "... unless there are glaringly obvious steps ..." but otherwise, it won't be me challenging what my timeshare developer/managers do. Some have chosen differently but I'm not interested in spending the time, money or energy that would more than likely only lead to more frustration. That said, there are a few lawsuits currently ongoing filed by Ritz-Carlton owners against Marriott that if I were an owner in that class, I'd definitely put my support and resources into those because it appears Marriott has materially changed what they purchased. So it's not that I'm against fighting the good fight, it's that I think they're not all good fights.

Which is the point I was trying to make in post 18

Until challenged in court the beat goes on

Agreed. Oddly enough, though, in this thread I'm advocating that we at least help the OP figure how/where to learn if there's relief for this situation. Yet when the questions were posed that could, depending on the answers, put the onus on the HOA board (for wrongly denying an ownership transfer,) others seemed happy enough to advise the OP that the money's gone and the only option right now is to pay the fees/penalties and try to find a way to get rid of the timeshare once more.

So what I'm reading is that we're supposed to look for any and every possible reason to put the blame for everything that goes wrong with timeshares on the big developers and waste resources fighting even what can't be won, while at the same time we must shield the HOA's from any liability regardless if the HOA board might be actually performing wrong actions.

It's much simpler for me to just want everyone to play by the rules and if they're broken, put the blame squarely where it belongs.

 

[TUGBrian]

Stormy Point managed by SummerWinds is where she bought the second TS that used Timeshare Trade in to "dispose" of her original (un-named) Spinnaker Timeshare.

I dont follow this?

she clearly said the resort being discussed is stormy point on post 96 after being asked?

Either way, its summer winds I need to speak to, as they seem to be the ones blocking this transfer.

The fact that the disposal company was (sanctioned and encouraged as) part of another developers sell is in issue in and of itself but it isn't the issue of the original TS refusing to accept the transfer out of the OP's name.

I must have missed this as well? what other developer encouraged her to use this transfer company? It appears to me to be one of those "similar name" type gimmicks that made this company sound legitimate?

As a side note much of what we see on ebay is from a third party companies that work with developers to accept trade in's and then they sell or pay the ebay sellers to take the blocks of timeshares. I am not sure if the ebay sellers get more this way or through PCC's these days.

eh, you will find the majority of the big players on EBAY selling $1 timeshares get this inventory from PCCs and other transfer companies...and if you dug deep enough...youd find they are one in the same...or have DEEP ties to each other with the only difference between the PCC and the "ebay seller" being a name...and for all intents and purposes...the people in the background are the exact same.

 

[DeniseM]

From another post:

I bought the Southwind management aka Spinnaker resorts back in 2005 (paid in full) and did not use it much.

I got married in 2007 and my husband and I like the Summer Winds Resort so much better and decided to trade in my Southwind TS for it - which was part of the Summer Winds incentive for purchasing (they used the the Timeshare Trade-ins, LLC in Branson) which I assumed was legit since the Summer Winds were using them

 

[tschwa2]

I dont follow this?

she clearly said the resort being discussed is stormy point on post 96 after being asked?

Either way, its summer winds I need to speak to, as they seem to be the ones blocking this transfer.



I must have missed this as well? what other developer encouraged her to use this transfer company? It appears to me to be one of those "similar name" type gimmicks that made this company sound legitimate?




eh, you will find the majority of the big players on EBAY selling $1 timeshares get this inventory from PCCs and other transfer companies...and if you dug deep enough...youd find they are one in the same...or have DEEP ties to each other with the only difference between the PCC and the "ebay seller" being a name...and for all intents and purposes...the people in the background are the exact same.

She bought the new timeshare from Summerwinds (Stormy Point). At the sales presentation, they said sure we will take your (old) Southwinds/Spinnakker timeshare and you can trade it in with our partner or third party vendor "timeshare trade-ins" I am not sure of the relationship with Summerwinds sales and timeshare trade-ins LLC. The one who is not allowing the transfer to go through is Southwinds, the management company of the (un named) timeshare she thought she traded in when she bought from the developer at Southwinds.


Both Southwinds and Summerwinds are considered legitamate developer/management companies. They have similar names and both have resorts in Branson.

 

[TUGBrian]

I guess I read that as happening in 2007....and it was not related to the current timeshare she had disposed of. (surely a timeshare she "disposed of" in 2007 is not now 7 years later saying shes still the current owner)

guess we now need even more clarification. are they now saying you own BOTH the new and the old timeshare?

there is still no resort I can find called summer winds?

 

[DeniseM]

She got married in 2007 - not sure if that date is related to the transaction.

She traded one timeshare for another, in what she thought was a developer purchase.

However, she said they used Timeshare Trade-ins LLC, for the trade - which is odd - maybe it really WASN'T a developer purchase...

She thought the first timeshare was gone - but apparently not.

This is a frequent scenario on the Mexico forum, where posters think they traded on timeshare for another, and then end up owning two.

There are many confusing statements in her scenario - that's why I was suggested that she sit down and create a timeline. I suspect that this went bad much earlier than 2 mos. ago...

 

[TUGBrian]

I dont buy that the timeshare in question for this issue is the one she traded in in 2007....they would claim she owed a heckofa lot more than a few hundred bucks in fees if they hadnt been paid in 7 years.

It sounds to me (at least my guess) is that she tried to dump the resort she traded in for in 2007 (successfully) using the same company that was used in the 2007 trade in (assuming they were legitimate since the resort used them in the past)...but now that company is nothing more than PCC and the resort management company is refusing the transfer because they know it will be abandoned...as apparently a large number of owners at the resort have engaged in similar transactions.

 

[TUGBrian]

this quote here mentions this transaction happened just last year:

so now I am liable for the maintenance fees of the Southwind property that I traded in January 2013

 

[DeniseM]

She said she got married in 2007 - not that she traded a timeshare then.

I don't think we have all the facts here….

 

[TUGBrian]

ok...got off the phone with SUMMER WINDS a short time ago.

here are the facts from them:

1. they manage stormy point resort...which she is currently (as far as they are concerned) still the owner of. This leads me to believe the issue is focused around her trade in of the french quarter resort managed by SOUTHWINDS/spinnaker).

2. they did confirm she DID do a trade in for this resort last year (Trading in a french quarter resort, which fits because that is managed by spinnaker/SOUTHwinds).

3. they claim they have gotten zero paperwork from anyone regarding a change in ownership request/claim/etc of her stormy point interval...which is likely why she is getting the bill.

4. The individual did say he is happy to work with owners on a case by case basis to accept the property back vs having it end up in the hands of a PCC. (huge kudos to summer winds for this)

 

[Passepartout]

I don't think we have all the facts here….

At the very least, the timeline is unclear, as well as exactly who the players are, and what obligations the OP is liable for. Seems to me that my first post, way back at the beginning, was to get legal advice locally.

Still watching the developments.....