email just received - Important Updates to Your CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Program Guidelines

[Avislo]

Or, Last minutes dumps by Wyndham of inventory coming under their control last minute under the terms of their agreements with the Fairfield Trust.

 

[raygo123]

Well, I guess my new strategy is to book a studio and a one bedroom, since that's all we need, then, if there is an available one bedroom, book it at a discount, or if the one bedroom gets upgraded, take it, then maybe the one bedroom will upgrade the studio, then I can cancel the two bedroom, or rent it on tug.

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[am1]

There are currently owners who cancel without planning to rebook. Plans may have changed or a renter may get cold feet if not rented by day 15 prior. With the auto upgrade that inventory will be taken for upgrades without sitting for any new bookings.

Right that will give 0 chance to anyone that does not have a reservation any hope of getting getting anything but the smallest room size back. Less inventory for non VIPs not more.

 

[tschwa2]

But maybe there will be more inventory in the 90-60 days when members might cancel and the VIP's won't grab up with the intention of renting out the discounted unit.

 

[ilya]

The new rules affected my bid, and I assume some others as well.. and I dont care about shill bids.. I either get it at my price or I dont.. If the seller gets it back because he set a high reserve, or if someone else pays too much because a shill bid the thing up... I dont much care, and the winning bid is still an indication of current market value.

So I guess you are still in the market as well as other in light of all the changes with Wyndham. Big contracts must be the way to go.

 

[Sandy VDH]

Long post......sorry I got carried away with IT speak.

I am going to reserve opinions on predicting the how these Wyndham change impact future booking patterns.

The auto upgrade might change the way some people behave, but not all. Some will still try to game the system, some will not. It obviously depends on what you usually book and what inventory levels there are there. It also depends on exactly HOW wyndham implemented the feature in the new system. And Wyndham at this point for me is the UNKNOWN.

I think for those who usually play the cancel and rebook game, HOW and exactly WHEN the system processes cancellations AND automatic upgrades will determine what people do. If it is real-time, than that C/R game will NOT work if there is NO inventory available when you do your C/R, as your cancel will likely be someone else's upgrade, especially during high demand time. I think if Wyndham is going to cut off this C/R game, they would have to make it real-time (with business logic to figure out if an outstanding upgrade request exists), or at the very least NOT return canceled units back to inventory immediately and then in some regularly scheduled batch jobs, match canceled units with outstanding upgrade requests. Since the new system is suppose to be 24/7 there is NO overnight processing window. So its Realtime or it frequent batch jobs. So in either case the canceled inventory either NEVER returns (matches an outstanding upgrade request), or the inventory returns, but it is DELAYED (no outstanding requests matched, but inventory is returned once matching batch is run). Doesn't help those who use C/R as a general approach.

However Wyndham IT in the past has not been known to be the A team, so this new auto match feature might be a bit much for them to implement thoroughly (by my business rule and IT standards). They may implement something they think will work, and deliver on a promise, but we may find a work around it. To make system processing simpler, they may have just implemented a batch checker for upgrade processing, they schedule it at off hours to not impact overall system performance (because performance matters). And in Batch mode it checks outstanding upgrade requests against current available inventory, upgrading where matches align. Remember the nice brochure said upgrades IF AVAILABLE, it did not say it was delivering a VIP status based + booking number (they are generated sequentially, so lower is earlier) priority upgrade. So in is most simplistic terms, if Wyndham runs a batch once a day or hourly and checks available inventory against upgrade requests then they are delivering on what they advertised. Now this implementation is not as smart or as sophisticated, nor does it take inventory as it becomes available and offers it first to those who booked first, but it is easier to implement systematically. Less real time rules, or less pending cancel or pending upgrade status of inventory (like they need more states inventory can be in). So if they took the easy route, we may have a chance to still use C/R (that is until they hire me as a consultant or someone in IT reads this posting). If they implemented this latter approach, I suspect it may be a short term implementation which eventually they will remedy, but in the meantime C/R will still work, provided you do it in between batch jobs. I honest doubt that Wyndham is this stupid, but they have proven me wrong before.

Now since 90 % of my bookings are within 60 days and I do take advantage of WHAT is available in inventory and don't rely on a C/R approach, this will impact so little I likely will not care. I am using the VIP perk as intended for excess inventory. For the 1 or 2 bookings a year that I do a SRP, it would be a nice bonus to get a free upgrade on them, if it happens. So on the whole it doesn't bother me, as my approach to utilizing my points is not predicated on the use of the C/R approach.

I understand other have bought into that approach from sales. But I have always understood that all rules including VIP can be changed and altered and I suspect when we find the next work around they will change business rules to curtail that activity too. Remember not so long ago we could transfer points to another member, I have unlimited GCs at a VIP Platinum member, etc etc. All I know is change will happen, Most I can live with, some I don't like, but I work around it my just changing my behavior. As VIP Platinum we used to have unlimited GCs, so in that case, as soon as I make the booking I put on GC, because I didn't care if they canceled and it did not cost me. Then they implemented a limited number of GCs. So now by behavior is to wait until almost the 15 day mark before putting on the GC name, because if they DO cancel I don't want to burn a GC. If at the end of the year I have some left, I put them on as many as I have known bookings for in the next calendar year. So now with new change, multiple reservation must have a different name, I will just alter my approach again.

As Ron said, it is just a constant evolution and adaptation. You just figure out a new norm and new approach and then keep moving on. For some the answer might just be to bail, as the change is too significant or you just can't get over it. Up to you. Life is too short.

So we can hope for something but expect whatever we get, it will change.

 

[bnoble]

Right that will give 0 chance to anyone that does not have a reservation any hope of getting getting anything but the smallest room size back. Less inventory for non VIPs not more.

So? Anyone expecting to find anything of value in the 60-day window was already playing with fire---if only because Wyndham can take it all then per rules of the Trust. That it might have happened sometime is of no real importance.

 

[ronparise]

So I guess you are still in the market as well as other in light of all the changes with Wyndham. Big contracts must be the way to go.

I'm buying for someone else and with the assumption that the 10 contract limit is or will be a real thing. So yes, size matters

 

[uscav8r]

So? Anyone expecting to find anything of value in the 60-day window was already playing with fire---if only because Wyndham can take it all then per rules of the Trust. That it might have happened sometime is of no real importance.

In my experience, Wyndham does not take everything at 60 days and there are still some good/great bookings to be had. I think the Wyndham "rental snatch" at 60 days is slightly overblown. There must be a cost or disincentive for them to grab particular inventory, i.e. they are on the hook for the MF for the points they use on the bookings and need to have a sufficient expectation of getting a good rental fee back. This leaves inventory open for resorts/times for anything but the highest demand.


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[jhoug]

We don't know yet whether you will be able to or not. When I asked I was told you could request a unit with upgraded view. I am not sure what options if any will be offered when selecting the upgrade button. Obviously if you have a 2br pres you may not want an "upgrade" into a 3br deluxe for example.


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Especially if you wanted the deluxe because it has a higher occupancy rather than a presidential. i.e. the 2 BR deluxe (sleeps up to 8) and you got upgraded to a 2 BR presidential (sleeps 6) and you had 8 people, that wouldn't work, but an upgrade to a 3 BR deluxe (sleeps up to 10) would work.

 

[bnoble]

In my experience, Wyndham does not take everything at 60 days and there are still some good/great bookings to be had.

Sorry, I wasn't being clear. I'm not saying that there aren't good things there, or that Wyndham actually *does* grab everything good at 60 days. But, if you read the program guidelines, it is clear that they can, so counting on getting anything good in the 60-day window is probably not something one should be doing.

I've always gone into this assuming that the 60-day inventory is all truly the "leftovers." That way, I'm unlikely to be disappointed.

 

[am1]

Sorry, I wasn't being clear. I'm not saying that there aren't good things there, or that Wyndham actually *does* grab everything good at 60 days. But, if you read the program guidelines, it is clear that they can, so counting on getting anything good in the 60-day window is probably not something one should be doing.

I've always gone into this assuming that the 60-day inventory is all truly the "leftovers." That way, I'm unlikely to be disappointed.

Have to put more effort in if you want good rooms inside 60 days. A lot of room sizes wyndham cannot or do not take for rentals at any time. I am able to make my living because of that.

 

[ecwinch]

i am not moved by the argument that "this is a benefit we paid for" Its not. Its something we have been allowed to get away with. We have had a good run, but its over.

I think you are twisting the argument. I agree that it is not a benefit we paid for. However it is a representation that was made to induce us to buy. In a group "owners workshop" I was told that if I upgraded to Platinum VIP I could control 3x my pts level. And my sales rep provided the detail on how I could create my own inventory to ensure I could get 3 weeks at Kauai Beach Villas rather than 1.

That is a horse of different color.

 

[tschwa2]

I think you are twisting the argument. I agree that it is not a benefit we paid for. However it is a representation that was made to induce us to buy. In a group "owners workshop" I was told that if I upgraded to Platinum VIP I could control 3x my pts level. And my sales rep provided the detail on how I could create my own inventory to ensure I could get 3 weeks at Kauai Beach Villas rather than 1.

That is a horse of different color.

If i was on a jury deciding the case and you used those tricks even once to your benefit then neither sales or Wyndham did anything wrong. The salesperson showed you how to exploit the system as it currently operated and you benefited just as they told you that you would. As a fairly savvy owner I would think that you knew that changes could happen at anytime which could change the way the system operated but you gambled that they would not change or at least not until you had gotten what your perceived minimum payback from the system. If on the other hand you bought under those same assumptions 12-60 days ago and the change were made, I would be more inclined to let you out of your contract if you wanted out.

There have been a few cases against Marriott since the inception of the DC where owners bought based on the rental program offered to owners (renting out owners units on Marriott.com for significantly more than MF even with Marriott's commission), they bought or bought more because of the resale value and Marriott brokered resale program (some bought retail and made money with the brokered resales including the commission) and with the trading power through Interval based on large developer deposits with Marriott owners getting priority exchanges back into prime Marriott resorts well in advance to check in. The results of the case were that Marriott sold the program as it currently existed at the time- with incentive to buy into the program because of these programs which they later discontinued but as there were no guarantees that Marriott would not make changes and the deeded rights remained unaltered there was no fault on the part of Marriott. That's my BA interpretation of the results anyway.

 

[Avislo]

Wyndham Comment: "We will continue to add more features to the preview site over the next several months, so stay tuned for regular updates and additional information."

Anyone know what the new features are going to be over and above the Reservation Related issues?

I am trying to get a seat at the upcoming Owners Meeting for the Fairfield Trust, If I can get one and attend, I will post the highlights of what I hear. If anyone else actually gets a seat, maybe they can do the same.

 

[bogey21]

The results of the case were that Marriott sold the program as it currently existed at the time- with incentive to buy into the program because of these programs which they later discontinued but as there were no guarantees that Marriott would not make changes and the deeded rights remained unaltered there was no fault on the part of Marriott. That's my BA interpretation of the results anyway.

Understanding this is why I divested my 4 Marriott Weeks many years ago. It is also why I opted to acquire Weeks at HOA Controlled Independents rather than other majors. Although I gave up quality for location and certainty this worked out well for me.

George

 

[bnoble]

However it is a representation that was made to induce us to buy.

I don't think this is going to get you very far. As we all know, the purchase agreement specifically includes a clause, which the buyer must initial, that says verbal representations carry no weight, and only what is written matters.

 

[wjappraise]

I don't think this is going to get you very far. As we all know, the purchase agreement specifically includes a clause, which the buyer must initial, that says verbal representations carry no weight, and only what is written matters.

While that is true, Eric was simply stating the fact that a sales pitch was made to him (and many others) that worked. And now, that pitch is no longer true. While something may be contractually strong, does not mean that is ethically strong. And none of us will have cause to prevail in a legal case with the changes, but that doesn't mean that the stench will not follow Wyndham in their efforts to sell more points to current users. In this day of social media and google searches, this negative PR will impact Wyndham.

 

[bnoble]

that doesn't mean that the stench will not follow Wyndham in their efforts to sell more points to current users. In this day of social media and google searches, this negative PR will impact Wyndham.

Nonsense. Timeshare is a product that is sold, not bought. If people knew anything about the product at all before they bought, they wouldn't be buying from Wyndham in the first place. They'd be buying resale.

 

[wjappraise]

Nonsense. Timeshare is a product that is sold, not bought. If people knew anything about the product at all before they bought, they wouldn't be buying from Wyndham in the first place. They'd be buying resale.

That is partially true, but every day buyers think they got a "great deal," despite some being savvy enough to find this site. And some will argue with the experienced posters here and keep their deal that is so good they claim it "screws current Wyndham owners." And don't you think these changes will impact even resale purchases? I do. And at least for the time being, the market supports my assertion (see prior posts about declining resale values). So it is not nonsense. Just an opinion you don't share.

 

[bachmansofwc]

Again thank you to TUG! I went to into Glacier Canyon asking to go to the timeshare presentation, we wanted to buy. Luckily, we were told we were not eligible to attend the presentation (some non sense about our zip code being target by local marketing). That stroke of luck caused me to hit Google which lead me to you all. Thank you! You all saved my family so much money and headache with all these changes I am reminded of what your knowledge gave us. We would have most likely bought the sales pitch and probably would have been enticed by the "if you are VIP you cancel and rebook to rent and cover your MF's" business!

Kudos to you all and this site

 

[bnoble]

That is partially true, but every day buyers think they got a "great deal," despite some being savvy enough to find this site. And some will argue with the experienced posters here and keep their deal that is so good they claim it "screws current Wyndham owners." And don't you think these changes will impact even resale purchases? I do. And at least for the time being, the market supports my assertion (see prior posts about declining resale values). So it is not nonsense. Just an opinion you don't share.

A few points.

The issue of buyers not wanting to believe what they hear has as much to do with psychology as anything. Timeshare is an aspirational purchase for most. After having made that decision, very few people want to be told that that shiny new thing they are really proud of is smoke and mirrors---which is why most don't look in the first place---and even fewer are able to hear and act on that advice.

Resale prices have nothing to do with Wyndham's ability to sell. Resale prices were near zero (and negative for some deeds) for a while there, and Wyndham kept selling. Wyndham does not care about the resale market, and to the extend it does would prefer it be low. With Ovation the are acting as net buyers in the secondary market, and higher prices hurt that flow of inventory.

These changes are too new to have any impact on the resale market. They were announced just last week! A few of the larger players paused during the freeze; that's probably had a bigger impact than anything.

That said, I don't yet have an opinion about how the changes will impact the average owner. The loss of the pool is a clear negative. But, if the changes collectively drive a few large-scale renters off to greener pastures, that's going to make at least a little bit of high-demand inventory available for others. They've not even been implemented yet, though, so I'm wiling to wait and see.

 

[happyhopian]

so how is all this likely to affect the resale market place

a 1 million point Smokey mts just sold on ebay for $3500 all in $3.50/1000 points

Is that going to end up being too high or too low

The last couple of smokey sales have been depressed. I think because of all the media attention surrouding the fires though I truly have no idea why there was little interest on the few I've seen sell. Prices have remained in the $5/1000 range give or take $1 either direction for the last year. There are swings either way but that has been the average I've been tracking for a few years. We have a thread on this here at Tug if anyone wants to go back and look at the history.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/jump-in-resale-prices.250700/

 

[scootr5]

The last couple of smokey sales have been depressed. I think because of all the media attention surrouding the fires though I truly have no idea why there was little interest on the few I've seen sell. Prices have remained in the $5/1000 range give or take $1 either direction for the last year. There are swings either way but that has been the average I've been tracking for a few years. We have a thread on this here at Tug if anyone wants to go back and look at the history.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/jump-in-resale-prices.250700/

Not to be rude, but can we take the discussion of the effect on resale prices to one of the other couple of threads discussing that and keep this one discussing the changes themselves?

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...s-due-to-wyndham-changes.254768/#post-1996206

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/jump-in-resale-prices.250700/

 

[happyhopian]

That is partially true, but every day buyers think they got a "great deal," despite some being savvy enough to find this site. And some will argue with the experienced posters here and keep their deal that is so good they claim it "screws current Wyndham owners." And don't you think these changes will impact even resale purchases? I do. And at least for the time being, the market supports my assertion (see prior posts about declining resale values). So it is not nonsense. Just an opinion you don't share.

There is ZERO downward movement in the prices over the weekend after the wyndham announcement. That doesn mean there will not be but there isn't as of now. As many know I've been tracking CWA resales for two years. I just ran the weekend CWA sales on ebay and the number are exactly inline and in several cases much higher than the last year's average. Larger contracts generally sell for less per 1k with smaller contracts selling for more $$ per 1k (similar with square footage sales prices on homes).

To those who are buying I like what Ron said earlier (and it is my buying strategy too) bid what you are willing to pay, win some, lose some but never over pay. I bid $3/1000 on every one. I rarely bid more and I've never bid over $4. I've missed a lot but I've won enough to get 3 million points at an average around $3/1k.

Here are the auctions that closed this weekend and today (only annual CWA which I've been tracking)

105,000 $740 $7.04/1k http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-CLU...370997?hash=item489bca49f5:g:bi0AAOSw4A5YzCZU

805,000 $4,431 $5.50/1k (incl closing) http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-CLUB-ACCESS-805-000-ANNUAL-POINTS-TIMESHARE-FOR-SALE-/332163948412?hash=item4d56839f7c:g:-SUAAOSwdzVXtO-7&nma=true&si=0QtLb1O6zlp1SzJzvl8EcZ1NpyY%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

154,000 $760 $4.93/1k http://www.ebay.com/itm/154-000-CLU...638823?hash=item41c25b51a7:g:qTYAAOSwpkFY5S3Q

413,000 $2,551 $6,17/1k (incl fee) http://www.ebay.com/itm/413-000-Club-Wyndham-Access-Points-Club-Wyndham-Access-SV66399-51867-/272627242967?hash=item3f79d997d7:g:GHwAAOSw44BYK1XH&nma=true&si=0QtLb1O6zlp1SzJzvl8EcZ1NpyY%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

1,000,000 $4,325 (incl fee) $4.32/1k http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-000-000-C...177320?hash=item5b36309468:g:7R0AAOSwe7BW1Ig8


Feel free to review and please post anything I didn't see or corrections. I want us all to be well informed and help each other to NEVER over pay