Jump in resale prices

[CO skier]

Wyndham does not care about aftermarket contracts. Not their problem. As an aside, is Wyndham selling anything *other than* CWA at the moment? There are reasons to think they would not. Wyndham retains voting rights for all CWA inventory, and does not require a full-blown foreclosure process to claw back non-performing contracts/loans.

I also thought that it would only make sense for Wyndham to put whatever they could into Club Wyndham Access.

Then I remembered my "owner update" offer last year for 84,000 UDI points deeded at Steamboat Springs, CO (but a Club Wyndham Access resort) for the bargain price of about $18,000.

So I did a cursory look into the county records.

Add Steamboat Springs, CO to the list where deeded UDI is still being sold at a CWA resort.

The Fifth Supplemental Club Property Declaration for ClubWyndham Access Ownership Plan at the Village At Steamboat Condo Lot xxxxxx was recorded 12/13/2016. This was for an Undivided 4642000/454729000 interest and an Undivided 33155499/398143000 interest.

Steamboat Springs, CO is part of Club Wyndham Access, but CWA points with multiple resort ARP, may be sold anywhere.

There are multiple Steamboat Springs UDI sales to individual owners recently recorded, but no CWA sales recorded. This would make sense, though, because CWA is a Club membership, not a deeded property.

The question in my mind is why would Wyndham still sell UDI points at Steamboat Springs? Adding as much Steamboat Springs as possible to CWA would drive down the average MF for all of Club Access. CWA purchasers at Steamboat Springs or anywhere else would get the expanded 13-month Advance Reservation Priority of CWA. It seems like a win-win.

 

[BellaWyn]

I also thought that it would only make sense for Wyndham to put whatever they could into Club Wyndham Access.

Then I remembered my "owner update" offer last year for 84,000 UDI points deeded at Steamboat Springs, CO (but a Club Wyndham Access resort) for the bargain price of about $18,000.

So I did a cursory look into the county records.

Add Steamboat Springs, CO to the list where deeded UDI is still being sold at a CWA resort.

The Fifth Supplemental Club Property Declaration for ClubWyndham Access Ownership Plan at the Village At Steamboat Condo Lot xxxxxx was recorded 12/13/2016. This was for an Undivided 4642000/454729000 interest and an Undivided 33155499/398143000 interest.

Steamboat Springs, CO is part of Club Wyndham Access, but CWA points with multiple resort ARP, may be sold anywhere.

There are multiple Steamboat Springs UDI sales to individual owners recently recorded, but no CWA sales recorded. This would make sense, though, because CWA is a Club membership, not a deeded property.

The question in my mind is why would Wyndham still sell UDI points at Steamboat Springs? Adding as much Steamboat Springs as possible to CWA would drive down the average MF for all of Club Access. CWA purchasers at Steamboat Springs or anywhere else would get the expanded 13-month Advance Reservation Priority of CWA. It seems like a win-win.

Perhaps Steamboat is a location where deeds taken back through Ovation (or some other equity exchange via developer) can still be flipped UDI CWP for decent $$ to Wyn vs putting the deeds into CWA (aka "buy 84K points for only $18K!").

Or, could have something to do with the strength of the HOA's in that location and their agreements with Wyn?

Spectulating... don't really have any idea. But usually Wyn's actions are primarily motivated by profitability.

 

[CO skier]

Perhaps Steamboat is a location where deeds taken back through Ovation (or some other equity exchange via developer) can still be flipped UDI CWP for decent $$ to Wyn vs putting the deeds into CWA (aka "buy 84K points for only $18K!").

Most of what Wyndham is selling as Steamboat Springs - Club Wyndham UDI is the result of the Wixon extraction from WorldMark. Wyndham could have dumped all of the Steamboat Springs extracted inventory into Club Wyndham Access, but (apparently) they did not do that. The answer to the question, "Why not?" would be most interesting to know.

Whether a UDI or CWA contract at Steamboat Springs or a different resort, I am sure that $18K for 84,000 points is the "starting point rate (MSRP)" for developer offers. When is comes to developer sales, "points are points".

 

[BellaWyn]

Most of what Wyndham is selling as Steamboat Springs - Club Wyndham UDI is the result of the Wixon extraction from WorldMark. Wyndham could have dumped all of the Steamboat Springs extracted inventory into Club Wyndham Access, but (apparently) they did not do that. The answer to the question, "Why not?" would be most interesting to know.

Whether a UDI or CWA contract at Steamboat Springs or a different resort, I am sure that $18K for 84,000 points is the "starting point rate (MSRP)" for developer offers. When is comes to developer sales, "points are points".

Does it consume more resource for Title to get UDI deeds into CWA? Usually those are done in batches via agreements with the HOAs. A straight flip might be faster.

Flag still flips deeds and then resells via Wyn sales force also. They are not the first contracts offered at a sit down however but they are still happeneing. Have been watching Flag deeds in county records for years.

Agree sales will sell anything as long as they sell something. But if they have options would they prioritize the offers? Have had that happen at a sit down where one contract type is offered and the conversation evolves to other options.

 

[nicemann]

Just because I was a little bored while the kid was still sleeping, figured I would do a quick search on the Clark County Website to see property transfers for Wyndham here in Vegas. Now keep in mind they have a few properties here but just from 1/1/16 to 12/31/16 there was 4,377 in deed transfers. Looking at some of the dollar amounts it gets scary. Now I can see why the sales people can feed their families.

 

[Braindead]

Just because I was a little bored while the kid was still sleeping, figured I would do a quick search on the Clark County Website to see property transfers for Wyndham here in Vegas. Now keep in mind they have a few properties here but just from 1/1/16 to 12/31/16 there was 4,377 in deed transfers. Looking at some of the dollar amounts it gets scary. Now I can see why the sales people can feed their families.

At a quick glance . Was most of the deeds for Desert Blue ?

 

[nicemann]

At a quick glance . Was most of the deeds for Desert Blue ?

It just says "WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC" for all of them. I don't see a way to see what property it is issued from. Of course that number won't include CWA contracts since they are not recorded as deeds with the county.

Update: I see they list a parcel number when I go into each one. No way I am going to check them all but looking at over 75, the parcel numbers come back to the address of the Grand Desert. I checked random months. Really weird none of the other properties addresses were listed. Maybe the other locations are only selling CWA or at least a majority.

 

[ronparise]

It just says "WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC" for all of them. I don't see a way to see what property it is issued from. Of course that number won't include CWA contracts since they are not recorded as deeds with the county.

Update: I see they list a parcel number when I go into each one. No way I am going to check them all but looking at over 75, the parcel numbers come back to the address of the Grand Desert. I checked random months. Really weird none of the other properties addresses were listed. Maybe the other locations are only selling CWA or at least a majority.

Whats in CWA is deeds. I would expect transfers into CWA to be recorded as the deed goes into CWA


Desert Blue ought to have UDI but Im not sure. What I am sure about is that all of wyndham Tropicana is in CWA as whole condo deeds

 

[wjappraise]

Sure. I didn't say they were taking none of them. But they have turned down some.

What have they been turning down? I have a couple of dogs i would like to divest.


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[nicemann]

Whats in CWA is deeds. I would expect transfers into CWA to be recorded as the deed goes into CWA


Desert Blue ought to have UDI but Im not sure. What I amd sure about is that all of wyndham Tropicana is in CWA as whole condo deeds

I see what you mean about the CWA being recorded as deeds.

Modify Date: 1/21/2016
Record Date: 1/5/2016 8:56 AM
Number of Pages: 7
Book Type: OR
Document Type: (D) DEED
Remarks: TOP MARGIN PAGE 3
Grantor 3200 WEST TWAIN LLC
Grantee WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC
Total Value: $13,611,352.22
Parcel #: 162-17-312-262

So looking up that parcel # that is Desert Blue.

Modify Date: 7/28/2016
Record Date: 7/6/2016 11:29 AM
Number of Pages: 9
Book Type: OR
Document Type: (D) DEED
Grantor 3200 WEST TWAIN LLC
Grantee WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC
Total Value: $13,329,713.71
Parcel #: 162-17-312-136

6 Months later Desert Blue again. So good chance that is them moving the the deeds to CWA?

Largest ones for the Grand Desert that did not have an individual name on it.

Modify Date: 2/2/2016
Record Date: 1/20/2016 9:57 AM
Number of Pages: 10
Book Type: OR
Document Type: (D) DEED
Grantor GRAND DESERT RESORT VACATION OWNERS ASSOCIATION INC
Grantee WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC
Total Value: $300,684.38
Parcel #: 162-21-701-004

Modify Date: 6/13/2016
Record Date: 6/13/2016 12:24 PM
Number of Pages: 6
Book Type: OR
Document Type: (D) DEED
Grantor GRAND DESERT RESORT VACATION OWNERS ASSOCIATION INC
Grantee WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC
Total Value: $274,272.02
Parcel #: 162-21-701-004

 

[ronparise]

What have they been turning down? I have a couple of dogs i would like to divest.


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I didnt think you were permitted to do any buying or selling yet

 

[Ty1on]

I see what you mean about the CWA being recorded as deeds.

Modify Date: 1/21/2016
Record Date: 1/5/2016 8:56 AM
Number of Pages: 7
Book Type: OR
Document Type: (D) DEED
Remarks: TOP MARGIN PAGE 3
Grantor 3200 WEST TWAIN LLC
Grantee WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC
Total Value: $13,611,352.22
Parcel #: 162-17-312-262

So looking up that parcel # that is Desert Blue.

Modify Date: 7/28/2016
Record Date: 7/6/2016 11:29 AM
Number of Pages: 9
Book Type: OR
Document Type: (D) DEED
Grantor 3200 WEST TWAIN LLC
Grantee WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC
Total Value: $13,329,713.71
Parcel #: 162-17-312-136

6 Months later Desert Blue again. So good chance that is them moving the the deeds to CWA?

Largest ones for the Grand Desert that did not have an individual name on it.

Modify Date: 2/2/2016
Record Date: 1/20/2016 9:57 AM
Number of Pages: 10
Book Type: OR
Document Type: (D) DEED
Grantor GRAND DESERT RESORT VACATION OWNERS ASSOCIATION INC
Grantee WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC
Total Value: $300,684.38
Parcel #: 162-21-701-004

Modify Date: 6/13/2016
Record Date: 6/13/2016 12:24 PM
Number of Pages: 6
Book Type: OR
Document Type: (D) DEED
Grantor GRAND DESERT RESORT VACATION OWNERS ASSOCIATION INC
Grantee WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC
Total Value: $274,272.02
Parcel #: 162-21-701-004

A deedback from the HOA of a foreclosure would look the same, so this is no guarantee they are going into CWA.

 

[CO skier]

I did a spreadsheet that I update frequently and I agree in looking back that there is a seasonal trend over the last two years I did not notice. Right now inventory is also down so that likely has an impact. I bought 800k points @ 2.25 average in November and now those same contracts are north of $5 as much as $10...just crazy right now.

1,136,000 Club Wyndham Access points -- No one interested at $6.60/1000

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wyndham-Poi...810073?hash=item25cf7c26d9:g:msIAAOSwV0RXsiT5

Starting bid reduced to $6.15/1000, if anyone is interested.

I have not seen much CWA sell for below $5/1000 on EBay, but for the "points are points" crowd there are a number of eoy contracts with good maintenance fees and annual contracts selling for $500 and next to nothing, plus closing and transfer.

It is EBay, where Wyndham pricing is all over the map, but there is still a lot of inventory and plenty of bargains. Do not wait until this summer to buy.

 

[Roger830]

I have bought and sold numerous model railroad items on ebay over the past 17 years in the $15-$300 range.
Pricing can vary by 50% in the same time period for the exact same items such as railroad freight cars when two bidders fight each other, then a week later there is just one different bidder at the opening bid.

Perhaps CWA pricing for large contracts was high in the past because of perceived low mf and demand by renters that abused the system by stripping the points.

 

[vacationhopeful]

edited ... bad math.

 

[ronparise]

there was a time, when for a couple of months, cwa contracts were selling for nearly $20/1000. That didnt last long; just a couple of months one summer, By that winter prices dropped back down. I was willing to pay more for CWA because I wanted to make arp reservations at La Belle Maison and Avenue Plaza. I was having trouble finding La Belle Maison UDI and there are no Avenue Plaza UDI. Others sought out CWA for ARP at the Dells. UDI contracts deeded there have a mf much higher than CWA so cwa was the preferred purchase.. If I was bidding against a Dells guy, the bidding could go quite high.

And yes I was willing to pay more because I stripped contracts, (but I was paying all my mf, so wheres the abuse?) and Im sure others were doing the same thing. So we were bidding against each other. Even guys that didnt strip contracts wanted to grow.. so we were all competing with each other. I firmly believe that there were only a handful of us that pushed the market way up. Recently however we have pretty much dropped out of the market because of the uncertainty going forward. None of us know just how aggressive Wyndham is going to be going after the mega renters. so the market is left to the little guy buying to take his family on vacation

In the time Ive been involved with wyndham, (just over 6 years) Ive seen CWA go in and out of style. 6 years ago no one wanted one of these, because it was new and anything wyndhan does is viewed as a bad thing for the simple fact that wyndham did it. Now it seems CWA is the thing to do because (say what you will about mf) its still about average

As to what wyndham is putting in there and why?.... who cares. Wyndham has their reasons. Perhaps its as simple that the salesmen at National Harbor or Canterbury (both sold out or nearly sold out resorts) need product to sell. so to build up inventory they dump as much as they can into CWA. Conversely, perhaps the salesmen at another resort see a high demand for their udi deeds. I dont know why but folks seem to like owning Bonnet Creek and would buy a udi, but not a CWA Bottom line I think Wyndham wants to maintain some of each kind of inventory... UDI and CWA. And dont forget Worldmark. I know for a fact that at least for a while, Wyndham was putting foreclosed weeks from some of the shared resorts into Worldmark

Yes ovation is probably feeding more higher priced contracts into CWA than lower ones. but the lower ones are still getting in. I wouldnt compare a seller that get zero for his National Harbor contract , through Ovation to the guy that knows he can get $10/1000 on ebay. Rather Id compare him to the guy that dosent know about the secondary market and who pays a relief company thousands of dollars... Ovation looks pretty good to him.. Ive even offered folks money for their National Harbor or Panama City contracts and been turned down, in favor of ovation because they believe everybody in the timeshare business (including good guys like me) is a crook.


So back to the ops observation... I see prices ticking up too. I blame it on the over correction after the suspensions happened 6 months ago. when the big buyers dropped out. The market is commig back and looking for the right price where supply and demand balance out,

 

[CO skier]

So back to the ops observation... I see prices ticking up too. I blame it on the over correction after the suspensions happened 6 months ago. when the big buyers dropped out. The market is commig back and looking for the right price where supply and demand balance out,

Echoes from 2013.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...ay-sale-up-tick-in-value.198191/#post-1521687


Here are some comparisons between 2013 and 2017 to show how much of a scatter plot these EBay auctions are, and how some bidders might get sucked into a bidding war that drives up the price.

It is also worth noting the the 2013 prices are from before the introduction of Ovation, which was thought would possibly drive up resale prices.


2013


500,000 Smoky Mt … 2175 ($4.35/1000)

1,000,000 Club Wyndham Access … 6228 ($6.23)

301,000 Panama City Beach … $3335 ($11.07/1000)



2017

308,000 Smoky Mt … $1675 ($3.35/1000) 2 bids

769,000 Club Wyndham Access …$ 6228 ($5.79/1000) 1 bid

1,136,000 Club Wyndham Access …$ 6996 ($6.15/1000) reduced listing price, not yet sold

644,000 Club Wyndham Access … $5150 ($8.00/1000) 61 bids, was someone shilling the auction?

405,000 Club Wyndham Access … $2850 ($7.04/1000) 41 bids

320,000 Panama City Beach … $2500 ($7.81/1000) 1 bid, includes free closing

 

[MichaelS]

I'm new to this but trying to sort through what you guys are saying here. What was the freeze on accounts in August mentioned referring to, and is now a good time to buy? Also, are my chances high that if I get a lower MF resell will it get snatched up by Wyndham instead?

I'm looking towards the lower end of maybe 154k points

 

[ronparise]

To my knowledge Wyndham doesn't buy off the secondary market so I wouldn't worry about that

Regarding the freeze on accounts. Don't worry about that either but you can read the 70 page thread on the topic if you want. I brought it up on this thread because I think enough of us formerly big buyers are out of the market because of it And that should keep prices down. Less demand ought to mean lower prices

 

[vacationhopeful]

Really ... 154K contract? Plus the extra cost for the minimum CWA/CWP club fee ($127) add another $54 yearly on top of the MFs. That is only 2 RTs for the entire year (reservation transaction .. what do each additional RT cost now $59 each?)

I would still look at the unit sizes you need in 3+ years ... kids grow and as they get OLDER, kids want to bring friends. You might want to bring an au pair or grandma on some trips. And as they grow, should they be staying in the LR or in their own private bedroom?

 

[wjappraise]

I didnt think you were permitted to do any buying or selling yet

You are correct. No change on this front, but planning to divest some if this issue ever gets resolved. I've grown a bit weary from the experience.


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[cayman01]

Do we have 100% confirmation that ALL Ovation turnbacks ONLY go into CWA? Is it conceivable that some are getting turned back simply because the owner has aged out of wanting to pay MF's on a decent UDI/points contract and then WYN flips it for a devloper sale without putting it into CWA?

I would think not as Bali Hai is not part of CWA.

 

[ronparise]

Just because I was a little bored while the kid was still sleeping, .

Don't you know when the kid is asleep that's probably the only time you get to sleep.

 

[Richelle]

Really ... 154K contract? Plus the extra cost for the minimum CWA/CWP club fee ($127) add another $54 yearly on top of the MFs. That is only 2 RTs for the entire year (reservation transaction .. what do each additional RT cost now $59 each?)

I would still look at the unit sizes you need in 3+ years ... kids grow and as they get OLDER, kids want to bring friends. You might want to bring an au pair or grandma on some trips. And as they grow, should they be staying in the LR or in their own private bedroom?

Depending on what they buy, 154k might be good for them. Obviously if they get a resort with high MF, it's not a good deal at all. I think 154k is a good start. We had our 182k contract for about 8 years before I bought my resale, because we were taking extended family with us on vacations. Plus, 154k contract is easier to get rid of then a 77k or 84k. Probably easier then a 500k contract (unless it's a low MF resort which will cost more upfront). I think it's just big enough to be usable depending on how often they travel, where, and what room type they need. If they need more points later on down the road, they can buy another resale contract. Since they are new, they may not know how much they will end up needing in the future. Why buy a large contract that cost more in maintenance fees, just because they might need it in the future? If they don't need it now, why buy it now? Why not save the money on MF and get a 154k resale contract that will give them enough to get started? If it's not for them, they can dump it here or on eBay, or Ovation if they will take it.


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[Ty1on]

I would think not as Bali Hai is not part of CWA.

Bali Hai is sales gold for Wyndham and will never be in CWA.