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Jump in resale prices

dagger1

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The $2.25/1000 points sales price was great; but according to my math, which has been faulty in the past, as you know Ron, it would make the annual MF of this WBC contract $454/year higher than CWA's MF for the same amount of points... It really brings home what you have been saying about high and low MF properties...
 

CO skier

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I like to include closing costs and transfer fees in my calculations so I get $2.25/1000 but the point is the same.
The closing costs and transfer fees were not included in the 2013 prices that were linked, so I wanted to maintain some kind of apples to apples comparison. There would also be the complicating factor of trying to cost-out how many currently available points transfer versus when the new owner starts paying the maintenance fees for the current use year.

Using only the sale price makes sense, because the closing costs and transfer fees disproportionately skew $/1000 higher for smaller contracts compared to larger contracts. It is a similar dilemma when considering whether or not to include the program fee when calculating $/points for maintenance fee comparisons across multiple resorts. Although the program fee is paid by all Club Wyndham members, it makes for a better comparison to exclude the program fee costs.


You say things might be different over the next 6 months. What are you predicting?
I think past is prologue and resale prices will edge up a little through the summer, as they have the last 6 years, then drop back again by October. As recently as 2 years ago, Bonnet Creek was regularly selling on EBay for $15-20/1000, but I do not think summer pricing will recover to that level. Great Smokies Lodge contracts are also selling at attractive prices versus a few years ago. These contracts might see a few $/1000 increase when prices peak in August. If that happens and adds a few hundred dollars to the resale prices, buyers can decide if it is the perfect contract for them, and pay a little extra, or wait until prices retreat again in the fall.
 

CO skier

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The MF's at WBC (per this recent eBay sale) seem high, over 9 percent higher than CWA MF's...
According to the TUG 2017 Wyndham Maintenance Fee Sticky, the 2017 MF for Bonnet Creek is $5.63/1000 and the 2017 Club Wyndham Access MF is $5.60 -- a 0.5% difference.

I do not know what the MF is for CWA or Bonnet Cr, but given conflicting information from EBay versus what is posted in TUG, my trust would be in the TUG information.

Maybe it is the multiple resort ARP, including the Bonnet Creek resort, that gives Club Wyndham Access a resale premium over a deeded Bonnet Creek contract.[/QUOTE]
 

ronparise

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The closing costs and transfer fees were not included in the 2013 prices that were linked, so I wanted to maintain some kind of apples to apples comparison. There would also be the complicating factor of trying to cost-out how many currently available points transfer versus when the new owner starts paying the maintenance fees for the current use year.

Using only the sale price makes sense, because the closing costs and transfer fees disproportionately skew $/1000 higher for smaller contracts compared to larger contracts. It is a similar dilemma when considering whether or not to include the program fee when calculating $/points for maintenance fee comparisons across multiple resorts. Although the program fee is paid by all Club Wyndham members, it makes for a better comparison to exclude the program fee costs.



I think past is prologue and resale prices will edge up a little through the summer, as they have the last 6 years, then drop back again by October. As recently as 2 years ago, Bonnet Creek was regularly selling on EBay for $15-20/1000, but I do not think summer pricing will recover to that level. Great Smokies Lodge contracts are also selling at attractive prices versus a few years ago. These contracts might see a few $/1000 increase when prices peak in August. If that happens and adds a few hundred dollars to the resale prices, buyers can decide if it is the perfect contract for them, and pay a little extra, or wait until prices retreat again in the fall.


my reason for including costs is that they are part of my upfront costs. It dosent really make a difference s long as we are consistent.. Perhaps the reason I always include them is that the bill I got for my very first purchase 6 years ago, was not the $1 I bid plus $249 closing costs, but rather $750 I didnt read the ad close enough to realize that I was buying 3 converted fixed weeks, and that I had to pay the $99 transfer fee and the $150 closing costs for each one.. even so 385000 points and a surprise VIP ownership for $750 turned out to be a pretty good deal


The important thing is that buyers and sellers know that these fees have to be paid by someone for every contract. and when comparing one sale to another, its important to compare apples to apples. a $1000 purchase from Sumday. is a whole lot different that a $1000 purchase from Discount timeshares.


Regarding the summer "bump" in prices; I know that prices fluctuate and prices have always (at least for the last several years) gone up in the summer and down in the winter. My question is : why?
 

bnoble

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I know that prices fluctuate and prices have always (at least for the last several years) gone up in the summer and down in the winter.
This seems to be true of nearly every timeshare system, not just Wyndham, and so I suspect there is some seasonal tie either to (a) the decision process people make to say "We should finally dump this thing." and/or (b) the decision process that causes someone to say "Maybe it's time to finally pull the trigger on buying a timeshare."

For weeks paid annually, the Winter drop makes sense: getting that MF bill is a reminder that you've not used the week in years and maybe it is time to sell. that probably doesn't happen for those of us who pay monthly, though. The spring/summer uptick may well be due to the fact that people are starting to think seriously about their vacation habits.
 

dagger1

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According to the TUG 2017 Wyndham Maintenance Fee Sticky, the 2017 MF for Bonnet Creek is $5.63/1000 and the 2017 Club Wyndham Access MF is $5.60 -- a 0.5% difference.

I do not know what the MF is for CWA or Bonnet Cr, but given conflicting information from EBay versus what is posted in TUG, my trust would be in the TUG information.

Maybe it is the multiple resort ARP, including the Bonnet Creek resort, that gives Club Wyndham Access a resale premium over a deeded Bonnet Creek contract.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree. CWA MF's are $6.15 per thousand all in (what I pay), and I used the $441.78/month MF quoted by the eBay seller ($6.65/1000). But, as you pointed out, actual MF's quoted here on TUG are probably more accurate.
 

CO skier

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my reason for including costs is that they are part of my upfront costs. It dosent really make a difference s long as we are consistent..
Well, ... if we want to be consistent, then any contract offered for "free" with two years of future years points missing, but the new owner would be obligated to pay for those missing years of maintenance fees, should be considered on the same basis. Right?

And the new owner should consider that liability when purchasing.
 
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Avislo

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Well, ... if we want to be consistent, then any contract offered for "free" with two years of future years points missing, but the new owner would be obligated to pay for those missing years, should be considered on the same basis. Right?...

Absolutely. Hidden costs such as striping a contract of future points then dump are real costs of the purchase.. This would also include other hidden costs that can occur such as problems with title etc. along with a fair market value of the time spent attempting to resolve the issues. Other threads talk of these types of problems.
 
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paxsarah

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Well, ... if we want to be consistent, then any contract offered for "free" with two years of future years points missing, but the new owner would be obligated to pay for those missing years of maintenance fees, should be considered on the same basis. Right?

And the new owner should consider that liability when purchasing.

Absolutely, and Ron has specifically stated in other threads that if he's sold a stripped contract he's fully disclosed that information. He's been consistent. What's your point?
 

whitewater

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Absolutely, and Ron has specifically stated in other threads that if he's sold a stripped contract he's fully disclosed that information. He's been consistent. What's your point?

exactly...

who cares if he/someone sells a stripped contract so long as its fully disclosed. Then its up to buyer/taker to determine cost/benefit.
 

Avislo

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Well, ... if we want to be consistent, then any contract offered for "free" with two years of future years points missing, but the new owner would be obligated to pay for those missing years of maintenance fees, should be considered on the same basis. Right?

And the new owner should consider that liability when purchasing.

Do not think CO skier was referring to people that disclosed how many points were being transferred with the contract and what years and types of points they were. He used the term "missing points" this implies that points not being transferred were not disclosed. These people were not given the opportunity to determine a cost/benefit analysis based on better facts.
 
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uscav8r

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Do not think CO skier was referring to people that disclosed how many points were being transferred with the contract and what years and types of points they were. He used the term "missing points" this implies that points not being transferred were not disclosed. These people were not given the opportunity to determine a cost/benefit analysis based on better facts.

You are stepping into a "conversation" that has some long, deep roots regarding TUG Bargain Bin ads. Speculation (yours is wrong) is not your friend in this case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Great Smokies Lodge contracts are also selling at attractive prices versus a few years ago. These contracts might see a few $/1000 increase when prices peak in August. If that happens and adds a few hundred dollars to the resale prices, buyers can decide if it is the perfect contract for them, and pay a little extra, or wait until prices retreat again in the fall.

Great Smokies is depressed due to the fires there. I've passed on several good opportunities there but for someone looking for 10 month points it would be an opportunity.

Having started this thread let me jump back in on two points - cost comparisons (apples to apples) and missing points.

Cost comparisons should ALWAYS include the closing cost. I have a spreadsheet I've used for several years detailing every ebay ad I've ever recorded. It has points, auction price, closing costs, transfer fee and published maint fees. Price, transfer and closing are added together and divided against the points, AND then divided by 1,000 to get a base cost per 1,000.

IMPORTANT THAT one MUST include closing/transfer fees to get an actual cost.

Yes a 200k contract looks great at $400 but when you add in $799 in t&c that $1,200 isn't such a great price anymore. I've been tracking these for over 3 years on a weekly basis. I would strongly suggest including t&c or your missing the whole point of estimating. This is why I have no problem walking away from contracts. I know what they sell for and I walk when they get higher than the 12 month average.

As to missing points. I had never experienced this until lately and I ran upon two different instances. I walked on both.

1. Seller listed 700k points. When the auction closed I asked for the Estoppel (always do this before transfering funds regardless of what seller says or demands).. This showed that there were zero points for 2017. Knowing that current transfers are taking about 4 months on cwa, I knew that I could be paying 6 months of fees for no points. The seller kept replying - "well you can use points from 2018" but I could never get them to agree that I would be borrowing what I should own on both years. In the end we all agreed it was just a cost of purchase. I recalculated the cost based on the maint fees paind for no points and it came out at $9.50/1000. I walked obviously.

2. Seller listed 430k points but I was to take over maint fee immediately upon the auction close by prepaying maint fees. This was not disclosed - though it did say buyer would be responsible it did not say upon auction close (until I got the purchase agreement). There were points on the 2017 year available and they argued that I would only be paying for what was going to be mine anyway. I recalculated and my great $3.5/1000 CWA went up another $2/1000. I walked and here's why. There are too many contracts in which the seller covers the maint fees until closing and in fact this is what Wyndham requires. The most important factor here - time. Requiring the seller to pay maint fees until closing ensures a speedy transaction. What I didn't say is that I did this once before when it made sense (and when Wyndham was running about 2 months on cwa transfers). Unfortunately the seller took THREE MONTHS to get the documents to Wyndham. Guess who paid :)

To that point. The last contract I purchased was 546 CWA for $2.65/1000. It has all points from 2016 renewing in March/17 and all for 2017. Seller paid closing, transfer and maint. When I signed the purchase agreement I asked the seller to have the remaining 2016 points transferred to rci - and then to MY rci, before they expired. This was done and completed in less than 2 days. As a matter of fact the wholesaler just sent me their log in information and I did it myself. The contract hasn't finished transferring yet, but when it does I will have all of the 2017 points having only paid 9-10 months of fees PLUS 546 into RCI at no cost to me. AND the seller because of a problem with their documents took a full month to get the documents to Wyndham -- guess who had to pay that extra month of maint fees.

I share this because I want everyone to be a winner. There are LOTS of options. Wyndham contracts will continue to be sold. People will continue to get out and while I know that ovation offers many another alternative, everyone wants to get SOMETHING for their asset, even if its only $1,000 cash in their pocket. That is better than nothing to many. Ovation has reduced the inventory, but not by much in my opinion. Smart buyers can still get below $5/1000 on CWA and if you search hard you can get below $3 but that is hard to find. Just watch the fees - that is critical and blows the whole deal because some sellers place with no cost and get a higher sales price but some list with fees and get a lower sales price...this has to be calculated along with when the points convert, whats available and who's paying maint fee until closing.

Good luck shopping ;)
 
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ronparise

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Well, ... if we want to be consistent, then any contract offered for "free" with two years of future years points missing, but the new owner would be obligated to pay for those missing years of maintenance fees, should be considered on the same basis. Right?

And the new owner should consider that liability when purchasing.


a buyer should consider everything when analyzing a potential purchase, or comparing one potential purchase against another (at least this buyer does): upfront costs, deferred costs, financing costs, and the ongoing future maintenance fees.





For those that dont know. I offered contracts "for free with two years of future years points missing", on the TUG bargain deals forum. . I disclosed the details in my offering, and in fact refused to sell to a couple of folks that I thought didnt understand exactly what they were getting into. But that wasnt enough for CoSkier. He did his best to interfere with my sale, and was successful. Tug redefined "bargain" Now "bargain" means "free" and ads like mine cant be part of the bargain deals forum.

Good Job You won...let it go already
 

comicbookman

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Sorry this is off topic, but is a question on something you said. how do you transfer points from one RCI account to another? Feel free to PM me if you want to not muddy this thread.
 

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Sorry this is off topic, but is a question on something you said. how do you transfer points from one RCI account to another? Feel free to PM me if you want to not muddy this thread.

There is no secret. There is no charge for Wyndham owners to transfer points to RCI. Then simply call RCI and transfer points from one account to another and again no charge. It's been this way for three years. As a platinum owner I can credit pool at 90 days but when I purchase contracts too often they come in at the last minute and I have to do something with the point or lose them. I've only used RCI once but I give away the points to friends who want to use them.

Just call RCI's Wyndham owner desk at 800-572-0931
 
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comicbookman

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There is no secret. There is no charge for Wyndham owners to transfer points to RCI. Then simply call RCI and transfer points from one account to another and again no charge. It's been this way for three years. As a platinum owner I can credit pool at 90 days but when I purchase contracts too often they come in at the last minute and I have to do something with the point or lose them. I've only used RCI once but I give away the points to friends who want to use them.

Just call RCI's Wyndham owner desk at 800-572-0931

Thank you.
 

happyhopian

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Well, ... if we want to be consistent, then any contract offered for "free" with two years of future years points missing, but the new owner would be obligated to pay for those missing years of maintenance fees, should be considered on the same basis. Right?

And the new owner should consider that liability when purchasing.

Fella you gotta let this go.

I love reading your comments and seeing your helpful input on pricing and what is selling for what / where, but this thing between you and Ron has got to stop coming up on every thread. If Ron said black, you'd say white. It's just old and no one cares. As the guy who started this thread for the purpose of giving us 'buyers' a place to come talk about the current market I'm gonna ask you to stop. It's distracting and I'm going to report it as off topic. You two don't like each other but don't piss in my yard please.
 
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happyhopian

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Do not think CO skier was referring to people that disclosed how many points were being transferred with the contract and what years and types of points they were. He used the term "missing points" this implies that points not being transferred were not disclosed. These people were not given the opportunity to determine a cost/benefit analysis based on better facts.

According to the guy who offered the deal, he said it was in fact disclosed. I wasn't there and don't care. This thread is about current resales TODAY and what is going on with the prices, a thread I started to help each other out in how the resale market was reacting. If there is a current issue in someone doing this that's awesome to talk about, but kicking someone's arse for something that happened years ago, and for which has been rectified and for which none of the buyers have complained about here, needs to be in another thread :). The confusion you are addressing is exactly why I am asking COSkier to stop. People don't get it.
 
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ronparise

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Back to the topic at hand

Regarding the prices go up in the spring and down in the fall dynamic we have observed in the past; I believe that there is something different this year and it has to do with the suspensions that happened last August

For the last three years I bought 20 million points a year and I was competing with other big buyers for every purchase. Our bidding, no doubt drove prices up. Since the suspensions I haven bought anything and I know several others that haven't either. I believe that since we are out of the market, prices may not go up as much this year as they have in the past

My opinion only
 
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TUGBrian

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please dont derail the thread with off topic arguing...take it to PM.
 

happyhopian

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Back to the topic at hand

Regarding the prices go up in the spring and down in the fall dynamic we have observed in the past; I believe that there is something different this year and it has to do with the suspensions that happened last August

Prices are up strong since November December. They haven't crossed $10/1k but they are hovering in the $7 on solid CWA. There are some buy it now priced at $10 but they don't sell. When summer comes everyone wants to buy a time share but in the 4th quarter I think we see wholesalers dumping inventory they haven't been able to sell previously. Just my opinion in what I have witnessed and purchased. I talk with Sumday and other sellers to keep in touch. They also call to offer things when they need to sell but that tends to be more in the 4th quarter than the rest of the year and right now they are inventory low according to my last two calls. I'm a small buyer compared to Ton at 3 million but I've been buying in 200- 400 increments all the way up through resale.
 

CO skier

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Great Smokies is depressed due to the fires there. I've passed on several good opportunities there but for someone looking for 10 month points it would be an opportunity.
Great Smokies was depressed before the fires, just like previously overpriced Bonnet Creek.

That is the beauty of points-based systems. Wyndham Great Smokies was miles away from the fires and not affected, but contracts there can be purchased at a deep discount, used there for ARP or anywhere within Club Wyndham at 10 months for relatively low maintenance fees.

The relatively low maintenance fees at Great Smokies does little to support the resale price, at this point in time. There were no fires at Bonnet Creek, but prices there declined, despite relatively low maintenance fees and the cachet of Disney.
 
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CO skier

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Prices are up strong since November December. They haven't crossed $10/1k but they are hovering in the $7 on solid CWA.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/345-000-Clu...107179?hash=item4b108b3aab:g:rX0AAOSwopRYhiaH
$5.14/1000 including all closing and transfer costs.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/340-000-Clu...100043?hash=item4b108b1ecb:g:86MAAOSwNnRYhiP7
$5.29/1000
including all closing and transfer costs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Club-Wyndha...037978?hash=item33c5b0ea5a:g:md0AAOSwZQRYZCj3
$3.91/1000 including all closing and transfer costs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Club-Wyndha...990834?hash=item4b0fa49272:g:4OIAAOSw9GhYc6QU
$5.45/1000 including all closing and transfer costs.

... just a few of examples hovering in the $5/1000 range where they have been for the past couple of years, at this time of year, and down from $10/1000 for CWA four years ago.
 
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I just bought a fixed week, can you help me determine my cost?

I paid $25.00

MF's are $755 and some change due 2018

I received a $500.00 gift card.

First use is 2017-they put me on as a guest.
 
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