POINTS VS TRADITIONAL TIMESHARE

[sue1947]

We have a points system at Ridge Tahoe Resort, but we haven't been able to get any availability since we bought it a year ago. We have been to France, Poland, Pennsylvania, Chicago, San Francisco, Arizona last year and had to pay out of pocket for hotels because there wasn't any availability. On top of paying for maintenance fees and mortgage. The salesman showed us the resorts in Paris, but when we got our password for the exchange International, those locations weren't part of the trade, but for a discounted rate. Also, we found out, the higher points package get preferential status for reservations, which we didn't have. So, no, I don't think points are a good system so far.

Did you put in an ongoing search for those trades? If you listen to the timeshare salesman, he likely told you or implied it was easy to get into any location in the exchange system at any time. A classic timeshare salesperson lie. There are a lot of timeshare owners that want Chicago and San Francisco etc. There are also a limited number of timeshares available. Ongoing searches get filled first and then the leftovers go into the online pool where they get snatched up immediately.
As far as exchanging goes, point systems and fixed week aren't that much different. You just have to know how to use your system to the best advantage.
Sue

 

[Tigerjohn]

My experience is with DRI European collection. Yes it is a complex question and best broken down.
Fees - With fixed weeks you will be assessed in the country where the resort is but if you are a UK owner and the resort is in Eurozone if it has a negative effect like in 2016 then fee increases will be higher for that fixed week than points owner in EU collection who are assessed on a combo of UK and EU resorts.
Exchange - Points gives access to lots of resorts globally within DRI with no exchange fees payable. Unlike fixed week.
Points gives access to part week, discounted, upgraded choice of apartments, facility to book any week of the year (subject to availability), Fixed weeks have access to that week and strict check in days which may have more expensive flights.
Resale - Fixed week owners are likely to be able to sell their weeks (albeit for a low price) whereas there is no real secondary market for points with DRI in Europe only allowing members to sell/give away points to existing members and DRI restrict the use of points to home collection resorts only and do not qualify for any club benefits (such as upgrades).
Points can be banked and brought forward from the next year (may be subject to a deposit payable on following years fees).
Points members can pay their fees by either one off payment or by 6 or 12 monthly interest free payments.
Fixed week owners have guaranteed access to their apartment on their specified week. Points members in home collection can book 13 months in advance subject to availability. Difficulty is booking into USA collections where you only have a 10 month window.
Points members have access to upgrade apartments, free internet,facility to use their points to book hotels, cottages, cruises, etc.
DRI have now introduced Luxury cruises and members can redeem up to 30% of the cost of tthe cruise in points and redeem this in value at 30p/point whereas a member may only pay 10p/point maintenance fees.
Points members can exchange via Interval International and points members Interval fees are included in their management fees.
Points members have also access to book resorts outside of the DRI portfolio of resorts via Instant getaways and Club Select (club combinations).
Growing points holding - Members can acquire points for free from other members and then add these to their tier level of Club qualifying points by purchasing 50% of the total quantity of those resale points to convert them all to Club points.
Another note on comparison of fees - I recently took an 18 day vacation in a 2 bed apartment at Sunset Bay club in Tenerife and after paying to upgrade this from a one bedroom to a two bedroom apartment I paid £822 total. The weekly maintenance fee for a fixed week owner for a 2 bed apartment is £500/week. This represents a saving for the 18 days of £463.71.

For more independent information on all opinion on DRI for fixed and points owners (or looking to buy or sell resale weeks/points) then why not join the current 7400 members currently registered on the following Facebook group - Diamond Resorts International members. DRI have no control over the content on the group - It is totally run with the members interests at heart.

 

[JohnPaul]

We have a fixed week and haven't tried points. Stratgically, with a points system, IMO using points allow the management to oversell.

If your points company is legitimate, the property underlying the points is in a trust or similar instrument owned by the points owners, and can't sell more points than are in the trust.

Worldmark did cause some problems about 10 years ago when they put resorts in places people didn't really want to go so the points chasing the popular resorts made for availability issues. With the resorts the have since added I think this problem has eased.

Personally I'm a big planner so this was never really an issue for me.

A similar issue can happen at an independent resort with floating weeks. If a bunch of weeks go unused because no one reserves them, then there are too many people going for the remaining weeks even though they technically don't have more sold weeks than available weeks.

So, once again it all comes back to what works for you. If you are happy going to the same place at the same time every year and don't like having to plan ahead then a fixed week may be perfect for you.

On the other hand, if you are willing to do some planning then the flexibility of points can be amazing.

 

[Wahootom]

If your points company is legitimate, the property underlying the points is in a trust or similar instrument owned by the points owners, and can't sell more points than are in the trust.

Worldmark did cause some problems about 10 years ago when they put resorts in places people didn't really want to go so the points chasing the popular resorts made for availability issues. With the resorts the have since added I think this problem has eased.

Personally I'm a big planner so this was never really an issue for me.

A similar issue can happen at an independent resort with floating weeks. If a bunch of weeks go unused because no one reserves them, then there are too many people going for the remaining weeks even though they technically don't have more sold weeks than available weeks.

So, once again it all comes back to what works for you. If you are happy going to the same place at the same time every year and don't like having to plan ahead then a fixed week may be perfect for you.

On the other hand, if you are willing to do some planning then the flexibility of points can be amazing.

JohnPaul and others

Thank you and others for their response.
A week or so ago my wife and I sat through a Royal Timeshare presentation in Cancun. It was a points presentation. We did not buy points. I failed to ask a couple of questions and wondered whether you or others could comment.

1.Under a points system, what happens to your points if you die? We have a timeshare in NC and deed to Week 44; so it becomes part of our estate...maybe more hassle than its worth, but nonetheless a recorded property interest.

2."If your points company is legitimate, the property underlying the points is in a true or similar instrument owned by the points owners and can't sell more points than are in the trust". The Royal's presentation (the Royal Hacienda et. al.) we attended indicated that we could purchase week six (mid February) for unit XXXX for about 4200 points; correspondingly, week 23 for unit XXXX was valued at about 2100 points. Correspondingly, you could convert those points to RCI at a rate of 12 to 1. While the legal rights of the parties depends upon the contract (every resorts contract varies) your general thoughts and comments on the following questions is welcome:

(a) Based on a discussion with the TUG member/owner we rented from (By the way TUG's guidelines were helpful and the TUG member/owner superb in our transaction), the Royal H is substantially traditional Timeshares. I asked during the presentation what would happen if we wanted week 6 in unit XXXX (or similar) at the Royal H and nothing was available: Answer: they would go out and buy the week from the owner. Sounded to good to be true. I think they would transfer us to one of the other Royal resorts in Cancun. Also it struck me that they were selling points in a resort (the Royal H) that was fully (80%- my guess) sold to traditional timeshare owners. Of course the 4200 points could be converted to RCI at a 12 to one ratio--not sure what that would buy us.

(b) I failed to ask this, but does the Resort have the right to change the value of the points per unit and per week. Can the resort re-value week 6 and unit XXXX by increasing in future years the points necessary for week. By way of example, in 2023 will unit XXXX (or similar unit) still be valued at 4200 points or are they unilaterally able to increase (maybe decrease??) the price of the unit for week 6. Would I have to buy more points in 2023 to occupy unit XXXX in 2023.

So....while I have been a member of TUG for years, this is my first post (I think) and view myself as "new" to this field. thanks in advance for your/others response.

TS

 

[theo]

Some great questions, to which I personally cannot provide informed answers.
I will note however that whatever those answers might be here in the U.S., they may not be the same or applicable south of the border.

Here in the U.S., Hyatt is currently in the process of forming and adopting a "points only" program going forward. Deeded owners within Hyatt have indeed already seen changes in the allocated points value of their deeded weeks. This observation is perhaps irrelevant to your questions however, maybe comparing apples to oranges, since you are asking about a RTU operation in Mexico, not about points associated with deeded weeks here in the USA.

 

[qwerty]

THIS IS A VERY OPEN ENDED QUESTION, WHICH IS GENERALLY A BETTER VALUE, POINTS OR A TRADITIONAL TIMESHARE.

If you can acquire a traditional T/S that you would like to use every year and at a reasonable cost that would be the very best option. Other than your owner M/F, no extra annual exchange or membership cost, etc.
If you want flexibility to travel and can acquire a "point" T/S at a reasonable cost, that would be the best option.
Of course, choosing which "point" system to acquire is very complicated and I have no advice which would work best for you.
I own RCI "weeks" and "points". For the most part, my "weeks" T/S are basically worthless for exchanging are currently in the "deed back" process.
After I no longer own at that "weeks" resort, I can actually use points to stay there at less cost than my current M/F.
Having both, I have seen that using points would get me into a "weeks" resort more easily.

 

[scooterge558]

Randy, first of all I'd like to welcome you to TUG, and say what a good idea, getting some insight to how different Timeshare companies before your purchase, this is a very good idea in order to determine maybe which would be better. Like a lot of others have already stated it really truly depends on how you want to use it, and how you intend to use it.

For instance if you like flexibility of going to different resorts, different times of year, different lengths of stay, then you may like a points based ownership. I think also someone else mentioned looking or knowing which brand you prefer, I'm not sure this matters much, as being a member of a points based system, can sometimes allow for access to one of the trading systems (II, or RCI) and allows transfer from Wyndham (for instance) to Marriott (for instance), or from Marriott (for instance) to Disney (for instance).

All of this said the which is better is as others have said, it's a personal preference thing. We (family and I) personally really like the flexibility that the points systems we're in and would not be able to get as much from a fixed week, fixed unit system. Again, though, that's our personal preference, and the way we use our timeshare.

As Sue stated you do have to work a bit for the planning within the points based systems and there is none of that in the fixed week, fixed unit systems, however for us, the flexibility it offers is greater than the guarantee that we're going to the same place again this year we went last year, at the same exact time of year.

 

[JohnPaul]

Points systems come in at least two flavors.

We own West 57th St in NYC by Hilton. Technically we own a specific week in a specific unit and pay property taxes on it. However, we do not own a fixed week and do not have the right to use that specific unit on that specific week. Our ownership equals XXX points that can be used to reserve space according to the system rules. So, this is a point system backed by a specific deeded ownership.

We also own Vacation Internationale and Worldmark. These are systems where all of the properties are owned by the trust or similar instrument and we own a small portion of that trust with the ability to reserve units according to the system rules. In these two systems, I can reserve any property that is part of the program to the extent that I have enough points.

In a third variation, we also own Shell Vacations Club. Like many other systems, before there was SVC with the points system they sold deeded weeks. As such, any inventory in their properties that is still owned by an individual deeded owner is not a part of SVC and is not available to me for use. I've never had problems with this but in some systems it might seem like you have tons of choices but in reality maybe only 20% of some properties are available to use with points.

Recap, look into programs that seem like they would meet your needs and learn as much as you can about that specific program so that you understand exactly what you are getting. Important factors include, what exactly is in the program to reserve, what are the rules about when you can make reservations and any length of stay or check in day rules, how do housekeeping fees work, can I borrow and bank points, what fees are involved (for reservations, banking, etc) as well as the obvious like cost to buy in and Maintenance Fees.

 

[JohnPaul]

Day of the week impact with points.

With most point systems, you can start your stay any day of the week and stay for as long or as short as you want. This makes it important to understand that different days typically have different point costs.

A typical approach is that Friday and Saturday are the most expensive (anywhere from 50% more than a week day to 3 times as much), with Sunday and Thursday the next most expensive and Monday to Wednesday as cheapest.

Other impacts to your point cost are season and unit size.

Let me give you a crazy example from Shell Vacations Club. One of their properties in San Francisco is the Donatello. They are very large studio units in a very popular big city location. To stay a Friday night costs 1050 to 1150 shell points depending on season.

We stayed at their very nice property in New Hampshire in a lovely one bedroom unit for three nights midweek in off off season. It cost us a total of 300 shell points for the whole stay.

That's why it is so hard to answer the question "How much time do you own?" when you own points. It's all in how you use the points.

 

[JohnPaul]

Cash Options with Worldmark Point System

Also, most points system have bonus time which let's you just pay $$ for near term (typically within 15 days) use.

Worldmark has two other programs that I find extremely useful. I don't think either is guaranteed to be around forever as my belief it is a way for the Developer to rent unsold points.

Inventory specials have been around as long as we have owned (since 2001). Inventory specials are for space that is not expected to be reserved through the normal processes (slow times). They show three months out of inventory specials and you can book 60 days before your stay. It is offered as either anytime or mid-week only (Sunday to Thursday). The rate is 6.3 cents a credit/point and includes housekeeping. That is the same rate as bonus time.

A few years ago (maybe more - as we know time flies), they started Monday Madness. Each Monday the offer a group of properties to book during that week. They are typically themed (SW, golf, cities, coastal, Washington, etc). A couple of times a year they open the program to every property for a few weeks. The cost is 7 cents a credit/point and it includes housekeeping. With Monday Madness you can book as far out as 11 month.

In both programs, the minimum is $50 a night even if the points times rate are less than that.

I use bonus time, inventory specials and Monday Madness a lot. In the last year I used 15 nights at variety of properties. They were one and two bedroom units and a mix of weekends and weekdays. Including the taxes that some municipalities require, I paid an average of under $100 per night. A number of those nights were in Seattle where downtown hotel rates start at around $300 a night before a ton of taxes. I consider that to be a very good deal.

 

[irandy1948]

You all have a ton of knowledge on "Time Shares" of all varieties. I appreciate the time you all took to give me guidance.
I need to go back and reread these post to try and get a handle on this info as we go forward in choosing what to buy. Again
thank you very much for your responses.

 

[irandy1948]

Here are my answers for the "beginner" questions. Can you folks tell any thing from this?

1) Where do you want your home resort to be? Gatlinburg TN. area

2) Do you want to visit your home resort at least half the time, or do you want to trade more than half the time? 1/2 the time

3) What are your 5 top trade destinations? Hilton Head, SC, Myrtle Beach, SC, Williamsburg, Orlando, Edisto SC

4) How many people do you usually travel with? 2

5) Can you travel any time, or are you locked into the school schedule? any time

6) Can you make firm plans 12 or more mos. in advance? yes

7) Can you vacation for a full week at a time? yes

8) What level of accommodations do you prefer on a scale of 1 to 5 stars? 4

9) How much can you afford to spend upfront, without financing? $2000.00

10) How much can you afford to spend every year for a maintenance fee that will come due right after Christmas, and increase each year? $1200

11) Are you a detail oriented planner? yes

12) Do you understand that once you buy a timeshare, it may be very difficult to sell or give away, and you are responsible for all fees, until you do? yes

 

[Braindead]

With where you want to go and your initial purchase target. I would look into Wyndham points contract

 

[vacationhopeful]

And those points should be deeded to the resort YOUR family wants to stay at. ARP is 13 months til 10months plus 1 day before checkin. Can always cancel the reservation up to 15 days before checkin to use the points later.

But as a resale buyer ... you have to figure in on 'rebooking' something later is ANOTHER Reservation Transaction used (and if you have used all your RTs for the year, dollars need to be paid to make another RT).

 

[irandy1948]

For give me but what is ARP and RT? I don't know.....nothing.

 

[vacationhopeful]

Advance Reservation Priority and Reservation Transaction.

ARP is your home resort window which you can book but the vast masses on non-owners of deeds at the resort can't ... 13, 12, and 11 months before checkin date.

Reservation Transactions (RT) is a token each owner gets for each full 77,000 Wyndham points that they own. Back in the early years of the Wyndham points systems ... most weeks were multiples of 77K to book. ie 77K, 154K, 231K, 308K etc. It was just an easy way to say ... most of the time you did not need to buy extra RTs ... just don't be wishy-washy with deciding were to go. HKs (housekeeping credits) are issued for each 1,000 Wyndham points under your member number. Both HKs and RTs are given out yearly per Use Year (Jan, Apr, Jul or Oct are the possible Use Years).

 

[bruceskis]

A couple of your assumptions are incorrect. I just know my own system (Worldmark) but I assume the basics are the same in other systems. There is not an unlimited number of points. The number of points is determined at the time the resort is transferred from the developer. That number of points can't be increased in the future. The number of points per unit has to remain the same. However, the seasons can be shifted around as long as the total points remain the same.
However, the issue of too many points chasing too few weeks is a real problem. They can develop a resort in a place nobody wants to go or someplace they don't have a sales center and sell those points generated by that resort at a more popular spot. As a result, there are more points chasing the fewer popular weeks. This means: if you want to be guaranteed a holiday week at a popular spot, you are probably better off buying a fixed week. If you want the flexibility of a points system to book different places each year, you need to plan your vacations a year+ in advance. There is more work involved in the latter, especially if you want a school holiday week. If you travel off season, then you can likely get your spot, but you need to pay attention as booking patterns change.

Personally, I like the points option. I would never buy a fixed week just because it's too restricting. I want the flexibility to go different places for different lengths of time. I travel off season but have also seen the booking patterns change. Places I used to be able to book a few months in advance, now book up a year in advance so I need to pay more attention now than before. However, the vacations I can take are worth the extra effort.

Sue

After some more research in my un-named point system, I believe that your assumption about all point based systems being the same is in error.

 

[sue1947]

After some more research in my un-named point system, I believe that your assumption about all point based systems being the same is in error.

Huh? In what way? My statement was in response to the statement that systems can oversell points to have more owners than available units. If your 'un-named system' has more owners than available units someplace (note not available in a specific time or place), then you should stop being coy and inform others so they can avoid that system.
Sue

 

[taterhed]

After some more research in my un-named point system, I believe that your assumption about all point based systems being the same is in error.

Huh? In what way? My statement was in response to the statement that systems can oversell points to have more owners than available units. If your 'un-named system' has more owners than available units someplace (note not available in a specific time or place), then you should stop being coy and inform others so they can avoid that system.
Sue

Well... I think you're both right in some ways.

If you buy into some 'South of the Border' timeshare offer with 'points' being sold, there is absolutely no guarantee what will happen. That, unfortunately, goes for fixed weeks as well. And, good luck getting rid of it when you decide that government sanctioned/sponsored/tolerated violence and vacations just don't seem to go together. Also, IMHO, points traded or based on RCI or Interval 'points' are far more likely to morph into something 'less useful' than some other systems. Again, IMHO. The exchange companies always seem to have a scheme to increase the cost of trading or exchanging ownership.......in my short but painful memory of such events. Just to be clear, I'm not slamming RCI or Interval, just those rare systems designed to convert points. I'm not sure that either company is actively promoting those systems any more????


But, on the other hand.... I do think that the major timeshare systems which utilize points for some portion of the ownership have far more in common than they differ. While they may alter the system to equalize private use vs commercial (rental) use or re-value certain regions or resorts to make it advantageous to buy more points or trade-up, they certainly aren't in the business of making the business model fail.....they appear, in fact, to be constantly inventing new ways to recycle or recover points (for free) and continue to profit on new (used) point sales! Maybe PT Barnum had it right (or D.H.)

I own weeks and points. I love my Marriotts (boy do I!) but I just built a last-minute week in Vancouver and Victoria (including a Penthouse) and really appreciate my Worldmark right now.

Again, just my 2c worth.

 

[taterhed]

Here are my answers for the "beginner" questions. Can you folks tell any thing from this?

1) Where do you want your home resort to be? Gatlinburg TN. area

2) Do you want to visit your home resort at least half the time, or do you want to trade more than half the time? 1/2 the time

3) What are your 5 top trade destinations? Hilton Head, SC, Myrtle Beach, SC, Williamsburg, Orlando, Edisto SC

4) How many people do you usually travel with? 2

5) Can you travel any time, or are you locked into the school schedule? any time

6) Can you make firm plans 12 or more mos. in advance? yes

7) Can you vacation for a full week at a time? yes

8) What level of accommodations do you prefer on a scale of 1 to 5 stars? 4

9) How much can you afford to spend upfront, without financing? $2000.00

10) How much can you afford to spend every year for a maintenance fee that will come due right after Christmas, and increase each year? $1200

11) Are you a detail oriented planner? yes

12) Do you understand that once you buy a timeshare, it may be very difficult to sell or give away, and you are responsible for all fees, until you do? yes

I said I'd get back to you....so I will. Sorry it' taken so long.
Your area's (Gat, MB, Hilton, et al) certain favor Wyndham. Wyndham is large, affordable and flexible. Point's buy and sell pretty easily. There are many pitfalls to buying a W. contract though....don't try and do it on your own. You'll regret it. Use the experts here at TUG (not me) to get some answers and guidance.
Your buy-in and budget would allow a reasonable number of points. Just keep in mind: MF's are for life (or until you sell/give-away the resort).. MF's go up every year. Don't jump in too quickly...think once (and long) and buy once.

A final thought: EVERYBODY want's a peak beach-week at MB or HHI during the summer. There are not enough peak-week 2br's to satisfy everyone that wants one.... Study and ask questions (and have realistic expectations) before leaping into the pool.....and finding there's no pool to reserve at HHI or Myrtle when you want it!

Good luck.