searching for a legit postcard company - what would convince you?

[Carolinian]

That 12% figure has been quoted by ARDA over a recent five year period, across all timeshares. Like it or not, that's the reality of what's been happening. Everyone can bury their head in the sand if they'd like.

HOAs running timeshares are like socialized government, where is the incentive to run a tight ship?

ARDA represents developers, and maybe that is true for developer controlled resorts. And you are right about developers not having an incentive to hold down costs. In fact they often pad their own fees. That is one reason that I would not even think about owning at a developer controlled resort.

That is not at all what I am seeing at the member controlled resort where I own or others that I am familiar with. If it was, I would be rattling the cages of some directors.

 

[Carolinian]

There is no solution! People can keep talking about it on here. Some people will find a way to make money off of it. With fraud or not.

Like I have said earlier timeshares are a very efficient market.

How many times will people be paying the same mf for a dog week as a super prime week? Does anyone really expect them to be able to rent those weeks? Is that not scamming the people that are renting the unit?

How many owners do not even know what they are buying? When they find out they overpaid they just want out any way possible and be done with it.

There will always be turnover of ownership.

People will always default. Even those with prime weeks.
There is no real consequence of default.

People believe it is easy to sell a week but it is not. How many times do owners sell weeks on ebay? Have you looked at their listings?

A lot of people are in denial about what they week is actually worth.

How about some of the locations of resorts? The age of the resort. The number of timeshares in an area. There are always going to be some that fail.


The closest solution is a points based timeshare system.

If something starts as a points based timeshare system, that is fine, but trying to retrofit that on to something else is only going to create a mess.

Hapimag, the world's first timeshare developer has been a points based system from the beginning, but that is not the reason that you do not find its product going for peanuts on the secondary market. The reason is that they have always had a buyback plan if you owned for a certain number of years.

As to how easy it is to sell a week, I have experience from two angles. I have sold 16 of my own weeks over the years as I changed my ownership, on three continents plus the Caribbean. I have only given one week away, and that was mostly because of the logistics of trying to sell it from where I am now located, and the fact that I had gotten it free myself. All but one of the rest, I have sold for a bit more than I paid for them, and usually rather quickly. Two of those sales were on eBay in the old days before the PCC's arrived in force and ruined it. The other perspective was in holding the HOA resale portfolio when I was 1st VP of my HOA. There we sold through a variety of sales streams including eBay up unitl the PCC's changed it so that it no longer was reliable on sales. Granted in the last five years that I have worked in eastern Europe, I have largely been away from such things, but prior to that time, selling a timeshare week was no huge sweat.

 

[timeos2]

ARDA represents developers, and maybe that is true for developer controlled resorts. And you are right about developers not having an incentive to hold down costs. In fact they often pad their own fees. That is one reason that I would not even think about owning at a developer controlled resort.

That is not at all what I am seeing at the member controlled resort where I own or others that I am familiar with. If it was, I would be rattling the cages of some directors.

Steve - You took the words right out of my keyboard. You nailed it. It is the (usually huge) developer controlled resorts which have, from every post I've seen, had sky rocketing increases that push the 15% limit over the past few years. Often without adequate reserves even being collected (the majority of the increases go to management fee's- strange, huh?). Meanwhile owner controlled resorts that we know of have been in the 3% or less range and often even those small increases are for the much needed reserves or taxes they don't control. It is a huge disparity and one easily spotted if one takes the time to look.

There really are two HOA types. One can and should be blamed for not properly protecting owners. The Developer controlled ones. The other are what was supposed to be in place at virtually every timeshare Association after the initial sales period - individual owner control. While those can be corrupted as well, or just poorly run, it is far less likely than when a Developer remains the operator. That is almost a guarantee of owner abuse and out of line fees.

 

[ampaholic]

There is no solution! People can keep talking about it on here. Some people will find a way to make money off of it. With fraud or not.

Like I have said earlier timeshares are a very efficient market.

How many times will people be paying the same mf for a dog week as a super prime week? Does anyone really expect them to be able to rent those weeks? Is that not scamming the people that are renting the unit?

How many owners do not even know what they are buying? When they find out they overpaid they just want out any way possible and be done with it.

There will always be turnover of ownership.

People will always default. Even those with prime weeks.
There is no real consequence of default.

People believe it is easy to sell a week but it is not. How many times do owners sell weeks on ebay? Have you looked at their listings?

A lot of people are in denial about what they week is actually worth.

How about some of the locations of resorts? The age of the resort. The number of timeshares in an area. There are always going to be some that fail.


The closest solution is a points based timeshare system.

So, you're saying the glass is half empty?

 

[timeos2]

For me, it's all relative to the rental market. If the HOAs can't manage and sustain a product that won't produce a higher rental return than the fees, it is time to close it down.

I can go with a rental market rate comparison as the basis for maintenance fee valuation, but only if you and others who preach it agree that we have to compare apples to apples. The value of a motel/hotel room or a mini - suite or even a one bedroom w/partial kitchen is not a fair comparison. You need to find a one bedroom, full kitchen condo - and the associated resort amenities. Or a two bedroom, 2 bath w/full kitchen and common features condo/home and then make the comparison. In most cases I'll bet the fees you wail about are in fact well below a COMPARABLE unit at market rental rate.

Anything else is not a true comparison of equal accommodations and thus has no value in the argument. Except for developer controlled resorts were owners get treated as ATM's with the fees if you compare equal units/features I'll bet most timeshares and fees are good to great values in a true test of equals.

 

[timeos2]

There is no solution! People can keep talking about it on here. Some people will find a way to make money off of it. With fraud or not.

Like I have said earlier timeshares are a very efficient market.

How many times will people be paying the same mf for a dog week as a super prime week? Does anyone really expect them to be able to rent those weeks? Is that not scamming the people that are renting the unit?

How many owners do not even know what they are buying? When they find out they overpaid they just want out any way possible and be done with it.

There will always be turnover of ownership.

People will always default. Even those with prime weeks.
There is no real consequence of default.

People believe it is easy to sell a week but it is not. How many times do owners sell weeks on ebay? Have you looked at their listings?

A lot of people are in denial about what they week is actually worth.

How about some of the locations of resorts? The age of the resort. The number of timeshares in an area. There are always going to be some that fail.


The closest solution is a points based timeshare system.

A properly implemented points based system that allows for the fees to be based on use/trade/rental value rather than a fixed cost for each week regardless of those values can be a very effective answer. It is especially true at the highly seasonal resorts (which most resorts are). Of course the long subsidized high value week owners don't like it as their fees would likely rise to reflect the higher use/trade/rental value they have but it levels the cost for all owners and makes the otherwise "worthless" off times an equal thus increasing the marketability. Of course the high value weeks can't be forced to join in but they can, over time, be brought into the plan as they under go natural turnover to new owners with time.

This is one area that even older resorts can use to make all weeks a more viable way to be an owner. Others include RTU leases of time rather than outright sale - that means even ownerships with clouded titles can be used to back the inventory needed without costing the resort the time or money to actually foreclose (this will help if they have been stung by the PCC's/Viking ship plans and short circuits that problem too).

There are plenty of benefits to a good points plan that no fixed week only option can ever offer. Holding on to the weeks only / all pay one price model in many cases is a very poor road to take.

 

[am1]

Timeshare is an uphill battle right from the start. Very few people decide one day they want to buy a timeshare. It is either forced upon them by the sales presentation or the sales presentation sparks their interest and they research further. People who attend presentations can easily be turned off timeshares forever.

The HOA documents are set up by a developer who does not do it in the best interest of the owners.

There will always be people who just want a place to sleep while others want attractions like Atlantis has. That is an expensive place to stay if you are not interested in using the waterpark multiple days.

Yes it can be very easy to sell weeks if you know what you are doing. But when trying to sell a week for a few hundred dollars people will be less motivated to learn.

The average timeshare owner should not expect to get more than maintenance fees when they rent their unit.

All of these problems have magnified by the recession.

 

[ronparise]

I can go with a rental market rate comparison as the basis for maintenance fee valuation, but only if you and others who preach it agree that we have to compare apples to apples. The value of a motel/hotel room or a mini - suite or even a one bedroom w/partial kitchen is not a fair comparison. You need to find a one bedroom, full kitchen condo - and the associated resort amenities. Or a two bedroom, 2 bath w/full kitchen and common features condo/home and then make the comparison. In most cases I'll bet the fees you wail about are in fact well below a COMPARABLE unit at market rental rate.

Anything else is not a true comparison of equal accommodations and thus has no value in the argument. Except for developer controlled resorts were owners get treated as ATM's with the fees if you compare equal units/features I'll bet most timeshares and fees are good to great values in a true test of equals.

I havent done a real search, but I know a gal that rents her 2 bedroom 2 bath condos in Ft Myers in season for $2000 a month...off season she takes what she can get. about $1000 a month....She is not on the beach, so I wont compare to beach front timeshares, but how about the Lehigh Acres club...It is much cheaper to rent my friends 2 bedroom condo than the maintenance fees on a studio in Lehigh

or in Orlando. This from VRBO a 2 bed 2 bath condo in Celebration

Mid Season .. Jun Jul Aug Oct Nov-Dec 15 .. $495.00/week
Cleaning is to be added per week or weekend of $60

Looks like its a lot less than my Vacation Village at Parkway


When rental prices are less than maintenance fees, the value of the timeshare is less than zero

 

[ace2000]

When rental prices are less than maintenance fees, the value of the timeshare is less than zero

Exactly. You can throw all kinds of other variables into the equation, but this is the bottom line.

 

[timeos2]

I havent done a real search, but I know a gal that rents her 2 bedroom 2 bath condos in Ft Myers in season for $2000 a month...off season she takes what she can get. about $1000 a month....She is not on the beach, so I wont compare to beach front timeshares, but how about the Lehigh Acres club...It is much cheaper to rent my friends 2 bedroom condo than the maintenance fees on a studio in Lehigh

or in Orlando. This from VRBO a 2 bed 2 bath condo in Celebration

Mid Season .. Jun Jul Aug Oct Nov-Dec 15 .. $495.00/week
Cleaning is to be added per week or weekend of $60

Looks like its a lot less than my Vacation Village at Parkway


When rental prices are less than maintenance fees, the value of the timeshare is less than zero

Average Daily rate not a hand selected one of example. The ADR for a mere motel room in Orland is over $95. A suite is over $145. They don't list condos but I'm sure there is data somewhere on them as well.

It's easy to find an example or two of cheap rentals - I use plenty myself and enjoy them when renting Bluegreen/Marriott/DVC/Hilton type units for way below annual fees - but if you need that for every trip or have specific dates/unit sizes/views/resorts you want then the costs you'll find are at ADR or higher most of the time. Apples to apples. If you're willing to make an honest, verified comparison and not just pull numbers from the air or on a one or two limited availability basis you'll see where timeshare holds it's own. Why do you think so many can be persuaded to buy RETAIL? Because they are getting such great deals without being an owner? Because the places are so beautiful, large and well featured? Of course not - it is because they are paying way more to get less.

Sometimes the negativity of those that use the timeshare system is incredible. They want to seem to find the flaws & inflate them way beyond reason. The fact remains that people buy in because of a all too often false dream painted for them by slick talking sales. When they discover they could have had much more for far less (resale) or that what they got isn't what was promised (anytime-anywhere easily as a hotel reservation) they go to the other extreme and bail out at fire sale or less prices. There is a value there somewhere in the middle and if we could somehow make that the norm while developing a real and stable resale market things will improve greatly. Those working to see that happen have my respect. Those looking to cash in, to undermine the system or make sweeping proclamations of great understanding and alleged wisdom tend not to. Again there is a middle ground of knowing the reality and trying to make it the best it can be. I'll go for that.

 

[Timeshare Von]

WOW 16 pages in just three weeks? I thought surely this was a 2010 thread or something. Who'd have thunk it ?!?!

 

[csxjohn]

. ....If you're willing to make an honest, verified comparison and not just pull numbers from the air or on a one or two limited availability basis you'll see where timeshare holds it's own.....

Sometimes the negativity of those that use the timeshare system is incredible. They want to seem to find the flaws & inflate them way beyond reason.

There is a value there somewhere in the middle and if we could somehow make that the norm while developing a real and stable resale market things will improve greatly.

Pulling one or two limited examples is all that matters to the OP. He believes his timeshare does not hold its own. What does he care about the outer banks or Hawaii, or the average performance?

It is the people on the bottom end of this curve that are having the problems and looking for solutions.

He has found a flaw in the value of his unit and is not inflating it beyond reason.

He doesn't care about the "averages." He cares about what is happening to him.

If people like him can't find relief for what is a real problem to them, and something isn't done to rectify the situation, all timeshare owners will suffer and eventually be dragged down with them.

For someone to say that they don't have a problem because their unit has retained value, trades well and re sells easily, is sticking his head in the sand. What affects one timeshare owner eventually affects us all.

 

[csxjohn]

WOW 16 pages in just three weeks? I thought surely this was a 2010 thread or something. Who'd have thunk it ?!?!

And 6,000 views. Do you think the OP hit on a hot topic or what?

 

[ampaholic]

-snip-

For someone to say that they don't have a problem because their unit has retained value, trades well and re sells easily, is sticking his head in the sand. What affects one timeshare owner eventually affects us all.

What? Our society is built on the people who are doing well walking right past those who are doing poorly. Just watch a beggar on the street to see how many help and how many walk by.

Just because some buck this trend by helping others doesn't mean you can force all to - or that you or I can change the trend.

 

[csxjohn]

What? Our society is built on the people who are doing well walking right past those who are doing poorly. Just watch a beggar on the street to see how many help and how many walk by.

Just because some buck this trend by helping others doesn't mean you can force all to - or that you or I can change the trend.

I didn't mean to imply that anyone should be forced to help anyone else but how long can you push dirt under the rug before you start to see the lump?

When it starts to affect more and more owners in the form of higher and higher MFs something will have to give.



I will continue to buck the trend and help others when I can but that's another story.

 

[timeos2]

Some would argue that higher fees for the more valuable times are just the fair outcome. There is a case to be made that those are subsidized by the lower value times when all have equal assessments.

 

[ampaholic]

Some would argue that higher fees for the more valuable times are just the fair outcome. There is a case to be made that those are subsidized by the lower value times when all have equal assessments.

That case has been argued to a standstill, it is what it is. Most timeshares will continue to charge all owners an equal share of the Maintenance Budget.

A points program is the only way I see to equalize the usability so all owners get equal access to the feed trough.

 

[bnoble]

And 6,000 views. Do you think the OP hit on a hot topic or what?

Well, some of us just can't resist a good old fashioned tire fire.

 

[ace2000]

Well, some of us just can't resist a good old fashioned tire fire.

Tire fire? Kind of reminded me of an exciting fun-filled sumo wrestling match.

 

[wawacito]

I the OP have decided to give up on this thread and unsubscribe because I can no longer keep up and the majority of the posts are arguing back and forth with no real progress being made on my original question.

Why are you guys posting here on a holiday? Go to the beach, go watch a movie, catch up on some sleep...

For those of you that have been helpful to me and my original question - I thank you.
To those of you that criticize me for wanting to get rid of my timeshare - you're just not in my shoes and you don't understand.
To those of you that criticize the methods I am considering for getting rid of my timeshare - you're just not in my shoes.

I'll leave you with some final words and let you argue away. I won't be reading your replies.

I did not buy the timeshare - my family did - so it was not my decision to get into this.
When my family bought it - it was about 20 years ago - the MF's were not anywhere near what they cost now.
Now I'm grown up and I have to pay the MFs. They don't fall within my budget. Last year I had to pull money out of savings to pay for the MFs. I don't want to just stop paying and ruin my father's credit.

As for screwing other owners at the resort - frankly I'm not really concerned about that because I/we whoever is left at the resort is already being screwed by the many many many others who have already jumped ship (we receive a list of units available for auction - that list is long - and I'm assuming its the list of abandoned units - either through non-payment-foreclosure or whatever other way it gets abandoned).

Here is what I want: I want out - before having to pay another MF.
Because: I don't have the money.

In my quest to find a way out, I have looked
(1) selling - no go - its a green week at an old resort
(2) abandonment - no go - ruins credit
(3) pcc

I found a PCC called TimeshareRefuge.com and came to this site to ask about them or any other PCC as an option.
I winded up getting a lot of people arguing.
Here's what I was able to gather so far:
(1) The company is located in Missouri - BBB listed - address, phone number and all
(2) A guy there named Ray Hinkle works with a guy named Steve at Sumday Vacations
(3) They do actually transfer the deed to a PERSON (so please - enough about viking ships)
(4) 3 users on this forum have used them - all of them have had their deed recorded and one of them has confirmation from the resort (so please - enough about deed vs resort debate)
(5) They charge $699 for me - every case is different (so please - enough about "why spend thousands when you can do it for free yourself if you spend some time and effort" - yea like 1000 hours of your time)

argue away
bye bye

 

[Carolinian]

That case has been argued to a standstill, it is what it is. Most timeshares will continue to charge all owners an equal share of the Maintenance Budget.

A points program is the only way I see to equalize the usability so all owners get equal access to the feed trough.

If you give everybody equal points, not everyone can have the best weeks, so you end up with a train wreck. If you divide points based on the value of underlying weeks, you end up with the small points package problem which is what led to the massive pushback against Sunterra in Europe, starting with the Sunterror website, and then the Scottish Action Group Against Sunterra with the Sunterrafied website and their Scambulance, the repainted ambulance they took to protests at Sunterra sales sites.

If I were developing a new timeshare and it was legal in the jurisdiction, I would set it up as a fixed week system with the prime weeks paying more on m/f, but as a practical matter, you are not going to be able to retrofit that on an existing timeshares, and in some states, as has been pointed out for years on TUG, it would not even be legal to have differing m/f's for different seasons.

 

[am1]

If you give everybody equal points, not everyone can have the best weeks, so you end up with a train wreck. If you divide points based on the value of underlying weeks, you end up with the small points package problem which is what led to the massive pushback against Sunterra in Europe, starting with the Sunterror website, and then the Scottish Action Group Against Sunterra with the Sunterrafied website and their Scambulance, the repainted ambulance they took to protests at Sunterra sales sites.

If I were developing a new timeshare and it was legal in the jurisdiction, I would set it up as a fixed week system with the prime weeks paying more on m/f, but as a practical matter, you are not going to be able to retrofit that on an existing timeshares, and in some states, as has been pointed out for years on TUG, it would not even be legal to have differing m/f's for different seasons.

The counter is that the prime week owners or prime view location owners paid more for their unit upfront. This is in regards to original owners. It should hold the same for resale owners as well.

 

[rrlongwell]

... I the OP have decided to give up on this thread and unsubscribe because I can no longer keep up and the majority of the posts are arguing back and forth with no real progress being made on my original question ...

Best of luck no matter which way you go. You laid out your options very well.

 

[bnoble]

Tire fire? Kind of reminded me of an exciting fun-filled sumo wrestling match.

Sumo matches end, often quickly. Tire fires burn...and burn...and burn...

 

[rickandcindy23]

Sure, go ahead and get rid of the week, OP. :rofl: $699 is not a terrible price to pay.

Sumday is pretty reputable, so if they say that company is good, then pay 'em. I like Sumday.

The problem with us is we all know the product, and most of us love timeshare, with just a few exceptions. We also know the scams.

I don't think you ever said which resort? Maybe I missed it, but I remember asking.

Please excuse all of the conversation about HOA's and viking ships, and the legal issues associated with dumping a timeshare. You can take or leave any of it, of course. Sounds like you are done with the thread, and I hope it dies a slow death myself. Your question was not an easy one, that's the truth of it. You hit a sore spot for a lot of people.

It's really an old argument, and a lot of threads get out of control on topics similar to yours, but most of it was still about your situation, even if you have tunnel vision and don't see it. So glad you aren't going to bore yourself with it anymore. We are not you, you are right about that. All of the people here are coming at it from a different perspective. It's actually very complicated. It's about the future of older timeshares as a viable, saleable product.