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TPU Arbitrage - Buy it or Avoid it?

Ridewithme38

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BTW I have posted that the OBX came out okay compared to southern England. That is a week, however, that is easy for me to rent for 2-3 times m/f if I do not use it, so that is what I do with it. Oh, and BTW, the OBX is only a couple hours drive or so from Williamsburg. A lot of OBX timeshare owners live in the Williamsburg area.

:shrug: Myrtle Beach, hilton head, Virgina Beach, Ocean City, Etc. i've heard of...and alot of people i know have traveled to...I don't know a single person who's ever gone to the OBX. Why would they when they could go to any of those other 4 more popular places :shrug:

OBX has atleast 13 resorts(according to RCI) on that little strip of land, that no one has heard of...talk about overbuilt! :eek:
 
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am1

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:shrug: Myrtle Beach, hilton head, Virgina Beach, Ocean City, Etc. i've heard of...and alot of people i know have traveled to...I don't know a single person who's ever gone to the OBX. Why would they when they could go to any of those other 4 more popular places :shrug:

OBX has atleast 13 resorts(according to RCI) on that little strip of land, that no one has heard of...talk about overbuilt! :eek:

You should exchange your week in there for a summer week. Then you can judge for yourself. Just because you never heard of anyone that has stayed there means nothing.
 

glypnirsgirl

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Carolinian
...Actually, it appears to me that these crazy looking numbers may have more to do with RCI's rental program than its exchange mechanism. The high demand weeks that it rents it artificially depresses the numbers for while those places they get lots of developer weeks they can swap out for those to justify their rentals, they overpoint. This whole business of a public numbers system and some of the deliberate overpointing and underpointing is an effort to create a defense for the next lawsuit.

In analyzing the points assigned to various deposits, this explanation is the only one that makes any sense to me.

I am not a RCI hater nor am I an RCI apologist. But in looking at wny RCI would assign points as they have, this is the only thing that makes any sense --- and possibly being in bed with the developers in some instances.

I also believe that if you know what RCI is doing, regardless of why they are doing it, it only makes sense to use that knowledge to your own advantage.

elaine
 

tombo

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MS has the lowest literacy rate and per capita income in the USA.

But we own the most guns. I personally own about 30.

We gots sum bueteefull sites and lotts of veery seenic outofdorrs aktivitys. Mostest things r cheep round hear cents we have no jobbs. I am bear feeted and in overhauls as I tipe this on the libary puter. Don't got no spell check. I di gradeate the 3rd grade beefor you akuse me of bein uneducamted.


Come down for a visit and let me show your ignorant bigotted a$$ around personally. Please drop me a line anytime you are in the area. I promise that I will give you a tour you will never forget. It will probably end with a grand finale tour where you get to see how antiquated and backwards our emergency rooms are. ;)

P.S. I am a male, 6'2'', 250 pounds. I assure you that your smart a$$ put downs of Mississippi will not occur but once if we ever meet face to face. I do someday hope that we can discuss my lack of income and education in person.
 
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glypnirsgirl

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Originally posted by e.bram
Tombo probably can't understand Carolinian writing so he(she)cut it off.
No wonder:
MS has the lowest literacy rate and per capita income in the USA.

This comment is way over the top. I find it offensive and ridiculous.

I found Carolinian's statement about Michael Coley calling the Civil War the Civil War ridiculous as well. Being from Texas, I know that Texans call the Civil War, the Civil War. The only people that I have heard call the Civil War the War Between the States are more from the Southeast rather than the Southwest. So to use it as an example of not knowing what you are talking about is absurd. It just shows that Carolinian did not know what he is talking about in this instance.

But we own the most guns.

We gots sum bueteefull sites and lotts of veery seenic outofdorrs aktivitys. Mostest things r cheep round hear cents we have no jobbs. I am beareeted and in overhauls as I tipe this on the lbary puter. Don't got no spell check.

Come down for a visit and let me show your ignorant bigotted a$$ around personally. Please drop me a line anytime you are in the area. I promise that I will give you a tour you will never forget. It will probably end with a grand finale tour where you get to see how antiquated and backwards our emergency rooms are. ;)

P.S.I am a male, 6'2'', 250 pounds, and I assure you that your smart a$$ put downs of Mississippi will not occur but once if we ever meet face to face. I look forward to meeting you in person.

And this response was hilarious.

As a practical matter, when I was looking to take my husband to Alabama to go to Talladega, (yeah, I know. What a redneck thing to do. What can I say, I am a native Texan. My husband who is an Pennsylvanian 9th generation birth-right Quaker - about as far from redneck as you can get - LOVED this trip) Tombo helped my planning by letting me know the beautiful things to see in Alabama. Thanks, Tombo!

elaine
 

DavidnJudy

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You should exchange your week in there for a summer week. Then you can judge for yourself. Just because you never heard of anyone that has stayed there means nothing.

I exchanged there in the summer (OBX that is) it was nice once but I wouldn't go back again and again like MB or Ocean City or even VB. But I wouldn't attack the place it has its nice points and when our kids were real small it was nice laid back.

We personally like them in this order:

MB - great family place, water is warm and fantastic
OC - lots to do but kind of trashy and water is colder and rougher
VB - kind of like OC but smaller
OBX - nice, but not much to do, probably won't go back for 10 years or so

(never been to HHI but would like to).

they are all different but I could visit MB, OC every year. VB maybe. OBX no.

Cape Cod we have been to once as well. Would visit maybe once every 3 years or so if it was closer.

But I am a sampling size of 1 ... lol
 

ampaholic

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Tombo probably can't understand Carolinian writing so he(she)cut it off.
No wonder:
MS has the lowest literacy rate and per capita income in the USA.

No shortage of Dum:ignore: As:ignore: in NJ is there?

Welcome to my ignore list you benighted boor.
 

tombo

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. . . and since Tombo asked about laws, it might be added that this behavior by RCI violated the consumer protection laws of just about every state which generally use language like North Carolina's, providing that ''unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce are unlawful''.

Please show me the cases and states where RCI was convicted of wrongdoing, or the states where a case against RCI is pending, or even just one single state where a case against RCI has been filed. Waiting for you for once to come up with facts rather than opinion................ Still waiting.

This is America where one is innocent until proven guilty. You want to call RCI guilty without them being convicted in court? As an attorney you should know better. In fact calling them guilty of something they have not been convicted of could be a case against you for libel and slander.

Your legal expertise is becoming somewhat suspect.
 

e.bram

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Tombo:
No shortage of guns in Newark and in some parts of NYC.
Just kidding. I have been the Ms on my way from Mobile to NOLA. Had some the best meals ever in small MS cities. Enjoyed the museum in Jackson. The Civil War(excuse me Carolinian) was probably fought to inhibit the industrial development on the South, which it did for 100 years.
 

DavidnJudy

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This thread has gotten ridiculous. It is supposed to be about whether or not to get in to the TPU game that RCI has started. If your post isn't about that, then don't post. JMHO. I am sure I have probably contributed to all this back and forth, but we all sound like little kids now, so let's stop and get back to the subject.

If there is nothing left to say on the subject - which there probably isn't then it can be over. I think we said most of it - RCI might move the goal posts, RCI is in with rentals and developers, blah blah blah.

Enough said.
 

Carolinian

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RCI has a choice of venue provision in its T&C and or contract which pretty much means any member lawsuit has to be filed in the state of New Jersey, whose consumer protection law reads essentially the same as NC. At least three have been filed, one in State court over Weeks, one in federal court over Weeks, and one in Federal Court over Points. The first two were consolidated into the case that resulted in the lawyers selling the plaintiffs down the river. Not owning Points, I frankly have not followed the third case.

In addition to the individual civil remedy provided in those statutes, there is also a remedy that may be pursued by the Attorney General of each state, who presumably would file under thier own state's law in their state's courts, and RCI would then try to remove it to federal court in New Jersey. The Attorney General has a lot more tools than are availible in the individual actions. The path to forcing RCI to walk the straight and narrow runs through an Attorney General action, as class action lawyers tend to be unethical weasels as we saw in the last case. The trick is having the access to talk to the right people to interest one of them in pursuing this.

I am not surprised by your defending RCI as you usually do, although you seem to drift with the breeze on whether to take them to court or not. You also do not seem to understand the difference between civil and criminal court. Criminal court is where you would likely end up if you carried out your threats of physical violence to e.bram above. Civil court is where an action under the consumer protection laws would play out whether filed by an individual or a state AG, and in civil court the standard of proof is the greater weight of the evidence not proof beyond a reasonable doubt as in criminal court.



Please show me the cases and states where RCI was convicted of wrongdoing, or the states where a case against RCI is pending, or even just one single state where a case against RCI has been filed. Waiting for you for once to come up with facts rather than opinion................ Still waiting.

This is America where one is innocent until proven guilty. You want to call RCI guilty without them being convicted in court? As an attorney you should know better. In fact calling them guilty of something they have not been convicted of could be a case against you for libel and slander.

Your legal expertise is becoming somewhat suspect.
 
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Carolinian

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In analyzing the points assigned to various deposits, this explanation is the only one that makes any sense to me.

I am not a RCI hater nor am I an RCI apologist. But in looking at wny RCI would assign points as they have, this is the only thing that makes any sense --- and possibly being in bed with the developers in some instances.

I also believe that if you know what RCI is doing, regardless of why they are doing it, it only makes sense to use that knowledge to your own advantage.

elaine

There are several practical difficulties with doing what you suggest in the last sentence. The first is that many of us beleive in the TUG mantra of owning where you want to vacation. That limits things. I enjoy going to the OBX, although that is a long trip for me these days. I enjoy going to England (actually my next trip there is in about a month). I would like to go back to South Africa as I enjoyed my three weeks there some years ago. Looking at overbuilt places in the US, I like a long weekend in Williamsburg but a week would be far too long, so that is out. I like Florida and lived there for a year, but to stay a week I would want to be within walking distance of a beach which rules out the Points Lite capital of Orlando. Branson I dont have any interest in even if I was given a free week. So for some of us we could not both own where we want to vacation and play the current version of RCI's Points Lite shell game.

Second RCI moves the goal posts regularly, so any time you think you have exchanging with RCI figured out, they play 52 card pickup. In fact, I suspect that their next big move in a few years will be to merge their two different points systems into one, and that is likely to have some massive changes.

So to me the best bet is using a mix of independent exchange companies for trading, supplemented by some RCI rentals. I have a lot more confidence in the system stability of the the indepenents and using a mix I can get most of what I am interested in.
 

Carolinian

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Agreed. I don't ever think I have seen a challenge to personal combat on these boards before. The issues are complex enough without making it quite that personal.

This thread has gotten ridiculous. It is supposed to be about whether or not to get in to the TPU game that RCI has started. If your post isn't about that, then don't post. JMHO. I am sure I have probably contributed to all this back and forth, but we all sound like little kids now, so let's stop and get back to the subject.

If there is nothing left to say on the subject - which there probably isn't then it can be over. I think we said most of it - RCI might move the goal posts, RCI is in with rentals and developers, blah blah blah.

Enough said.
 

bnoble

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This thread has gotten ridiculous. It is supposed to be about whether or not to get in to the TPU game that RCI has started. If your post isn't about that, then don't post.
Every RCI thread (and many non-RCI threads) eventually become The Same Thread, just with different titles. It's like the timeshare community's version of Godwin's Law.
 

glypnirsgirl

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I also believe that if you know what RCI is doing, regardless of why they are doing it, it only makes sense to use that knowledge to your own advantage.

There are several practical difficulties with doing what you suggest in the last sentence. The first is that many of us beleive in the TUG mantra of owning where you want to vacation. That limits things.

So to me the best bet is using a mix of independent exchange companies for trading, supplemented by some RCI rentals. I have a lot more confidence in the system stability of the the indepenents and using a mix I can get most of what I am interested in.

Finally, I understand what the controversy is and it is both basic and two-fold.

First, there is the controversy for the TS user. Some people buy to use and those people may be disadvantaged when it comes to trading. So those highly desirable OBX and London timeshares do not receive the TPUs that they "should" be entitled to ... because seldom they are traded, they are normally "used."

And there seems to be a disparate upgrade in TPU value for those people that have purchased specifically to exchange.

In the past, there may not have been a conflict in "owning to use" vs. "owning to exchange." In the past, those who "own to use," on the limited occasions when they chose to exchange, were given sufficient trading power to get something similar to what they were giving up. And now those who "own to use" are not being treated fairly because they are underpointed with the TPUs?

Right now, I have a mix of "own to use" my DVC points, my "own to exchange" Dikhololo and Rayburn Country Club, and purchased for both "own to use" and "own to exchange," Sheraton Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach.

And my satisfaction with each of these purchases is commensurate with the purpose for which I purchased them: I am still happy with my DVC points. I will be using points for May, 2012 at my home resort at WDW. I am less happy than I was intitially with RCC and Dik - I am no longer getting the trades that I once did. I am still happy with SBP, I got great trades this past year, I have one good trade that I will use this fall (Hyatt Wild Oak - which I can drive to) and I have a request in for a Curacao resort. If I do not get the trade into Curacao, I will use my SBP for a summer vacation next year. And I will still be happy.

If people know that the goal posts can be moved and choose to purchase based on the present goalpost position, what is the problem with them purchasing to trade?

Second, and really unrelated to the first, is the "fairness" of RCI overpointing resorts. And in this, I believe that you are correct, that the ONLY reason that RCI would overpoint is a defense to the next lawsuit over renting deposits. If they overpoint VV@P for deposits, and underpoint the highly desirable deposits (desirable based on supply and demand - that is more demand than there is supply), when they rent the highly desirable deposits, they will be able to claim a "like for like" based on their own (RCI's) assignment of points. And their assignment of points is artificial so that it benefits RCI, not the owners. So the pointing is not based on market factors, it is based on defensive strategy for the future lawsuits. So RCI is "wrong," "bad" and possibly illegally assigning points.

So the philosophical question becomes, "If RCI is wrong in assigning too many points to certain deposits, is it wrong for those that know what the assignment of points is, to take advantage of it?" And I believe that the answer to that question is, "If the user understands that they are making a decision to purchase an over-pointed resort based on the current assignment of points, and the user understands that the assignment of points is likely to change in the future, then the user is taking the risk of purchasing points that may be worth less, much less, in the future, and it is not wrong for them to make that decision." But no one is telling the developer purchaser that the points are overvalued, so they do not have that critical piece of information (this resort is overvalued on points) when making their decision to purchase.*

Which brings me to a second reason to overpoint a resort, and that is that the overpointing creates an artificial demand. That is, the demand for the VV@P is based on the value of the points rather than the intrinsic value of the resort. Or IOW, the desirability of owning at VV@P is based on the value of the points rather than the actual desirability of the resort. This benefits the resort because it becomes a selling point, "Our resort is highly desirable, look, RCI assigns 50 points to it, and the HGVC Parc Soleil is only worth 25points (or whatever) so we must be great." Hand the potential buyer the RCI book, "Look and see how many wonderful trades that you can make." And then RCI benefits because those buyers don't want to stay in their own resort, they would much rather stay in the nicer resort that is intrinsically worth more points but artificially costs less points, so that drives demand for exchanges.

Does the problem then becomes one of legality because both the resort and RCI are making false representations of the "value" of the resort?

If a resort is being sold based on a point value that it does not deserve, (if analyzed on a true market model of supply and demand), is this a fraudulent representation of "value?" And what a proof problem that will be for anyone making the claim of misrepresentation. "I bought this resort because it is worth 50 TPUs, but I find that I like this resort only half as much as I like the resort that is worth 25 TPUs. And over on Ebay, my resort sells for $1 and I have to pay people to take it off my hands, but the 25 TPU resort that I like better is worth $5,000. If I had known that the TPU value was artificial, I would not have bought this resort, i would have bought that other resort." And the defense to that, "You knew that you were buying this resort where the rooms are small, the buildings are high, the buildings are crammed together, the parking is difficult. And all of that was there for you to see. You freely and voluntarily chose to make this purchase. We did not misrepresent anything. You chose based on the TPUs assigned. And the TPUs were really assigned that way. We don't make the RCI rules. We have no control over the RCI rules changing."

If RCI can demonstrate some rational basis for the assignment of points, is that a good defense to the "mis-pointing" of resorts? In our capitalist system, do they have an obligation to their stockholders to make their best profit that overrides their obligation to the depositors for "fairness"? :shrug:

I don't know the answer. I do know that the people that take the time to learn the rules will benefit from the rules and those that do not learn the rules will be disadvantaged. And the rules can change so that the decision one makes today to take advantage of the rules, can become a bad decision, in the event that the rules change.

Contrast that with the purchaser that makes their decision to purchase strictly based on their perceived value of their purchase without any additional incentives - that person is the "own to use" purchaser. As long as the resort is maintained, the purchaser for "own to use" is unlikely to be "hoodwinked." The goalposts cannot be moved for this purchaser.
 

ampaholic

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-Snip-

If people know that the goal posts can be moved and choose to purchase based on the present goalpost position, what is the problem with them purchasing to trade?

Exactly.

Which brings me to a second reason to overpoint a resort, and that is that the overpointing creates an artificial demand. That is, the demand for the VV@P is based on the value of the points rather than the intrinsic value of the resort. Or IOW, the desirability of owning at VV@P is based on the value of the points rather than the actual desirability of the resort. This benefits the resort because it becomes a selling point, "Our resort is highly desirable, look, RCI assigns 50 points to it, and the HGVC Parc Soleil is only worth 25points (or whatever) so we must be great." Hand the potential buyer the RCI book, "Look and see how many wonderful trades that you can make." And then RCI benefits because those buyers don't want to stay in their own resort, they would much rather stay in the nicer resort that is intrinsically worth more points but artificially costs less points, so that drives demand for exchanges.

Does the problem then becomes one of legality because both the resort and RCI are making false representations of the "value" of the resort?

-Snip-

This is my theory - and I think it will take some very sharp lawyers to convince a court that RCI shouldn't be allowed to assign the TPU values based on RCI's own internal calculations - however they are calculated.

If RCI's using of its own calculations is illegal, what about a car dealers calculations on your trade in? Should the car dealer be forced to use only the NADA book and never mind local supply and demand?

Like I said - RCI is in it for the $179's
 

MichaelColey

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I'm not even going to dignify the recent insulting and off-topic comments in this thread. But here's an on-topic post that didn't get the attention it deserved:

i'm still hoping for a thread on Cheapest MF per TPU....or at the very least...Most TPU's deposit/Least TPU's to Exchange back in Resorts
If you find some timeshares that meet that criteria, I would strongly suggest avoiding them. The first part is fine - you definitely want the best value if you're exchanging. The second part is where you're going to get into trouble. If there's a huge inefficiency between supply and demand (which is exactly what you're describing), that inefficiency will likely be eliminated in the future (and probably not in your favor). MUCH better would be to find something where there's a good balance between trading power issued for deposits and trading power required for exchanges. That would indicate a healthy demand, fair valuation, and a likelyhood that the TPUs you earn will continue at the same level for a longer time.
 

MuranoJo

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Excellent summary, Glypnirsgirl.
 

tombo

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At least three have been filed, one in State court over Weeks, one in federal court over Weeks, and one in Federal Court over Points. The first two were consolidated into the case that resulted in the lawyers selling the plaintiffs down the river. Not owning Points, I frankly have not followed the third case.

In addition to the individual civil remedy provided in those statutes, there is also a remedy that may be pursued by the Attorney General of each state, who presumably would file under thier own state's law in their state's courts, and RCI would then try to remove it to federal court in New Jersey. The Attorney General has a lot more tools than are availible in the individual actions. The path to forcing RCI to walk the straight and narrow runs through an Attorney General action,

I am not surprised by your defending RCI as you usually do, although you seem to drift with the breeze on whether to take them to court or not. You also do not seem to understand the difference between civil and criminal court. Criminal court is where you would likely end up if you carried out your threats of physical violence to e.bram above. Civil court is where an action under the consumer protection laws would play out whether filed by an individual or a state AG, and in civil court the standard of proof is the greater weight of the evidence not proof beyond a reasonable doubt as in criminal court.

Not one state Attorney general has filed suit against RCI. According to you they have broken the law in almost every state, yet no attorney general has prosecuted them. Perhaps the attorney generals in virtually every state in the US don't understand the law, only you do.

The one law suit which we all know about was settled with no admission of wrong doing and with RCI still renting out deposited weeks. The other law suit no one has heard about. No guilty verdicts, no indictments by any state, and no pending trial against RCI by ANY state in the US.

I do wish someone could/would sue RCI to stop them from renting out our deposited weeks, but I don't beliieve it will ever happen. They have them selves covered legally with the term of membership. It says that they can rent out our weeks. So basically join RCI and accept their terms, or quit and don't. I do not like them renting out weeks but I don' think it is illegal, and apparently neither does any State Attorney General. As I said before if you sue them to stop them from renting deposited weeks, I am on your side.

As far as threats of physical violence, I think you need to read my post again. Not once did I overtly threaten anyone with physical violence. No one reading my post could feel that it was a threat of physical violence "beyond any reasonable doubt" which is what you told me it would take to convict me in criminal court. Of course both myself and RCI are guilty without a trial in the court of Carolinian's opinion.
 
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Carolinian

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Attorney Generals do not have the resources to pursue every possbile case of violation of consumer protection laws. They pursue them selectively, and in the real world often for the ones with the most media appeal. AG, after all, is said to really stand for ''Aspiring Governor''. The key is having the access to convince the decision makers that this is one they need to make a serious move on.


Not one state Attorney general has filed suit against RCI. According to you they have broken the law in almost every state, yet no attorney general has prosecuted them. Perhaps the attorney generals in virtually every state in the US don't understand the law, only you do.

The one law suit which we all know about was settled with no admission of wrong doing and with RCI still renting out deposited weeks. The other law suit no one has heard about. No guilty verdicts, no indictments by any state, and no pending trial against RCI by ANY state in the US.

I do wish someone could/would sue RCI to stop them from renting out our deposited weeks, but I don't beliieve it will ever happen. They have them selves covered legally with the term of membership. It says that they can rent out our weeks. So basically join RCI and accept their terms, or quit and don't. I do not like them renting out weeks but I don' think it is illegal, and apparently neither does any State Attorney General. As I said before if you sue them to stop them from renting deposited weeks, I am on your side.

As far as threats of physical violence, I think you need to read my post again. Not once did I overtly threaten anyone with physical violence. No one reading my post could feel that it was a threat of physical violence "beyond any reasonable doubt" which is what you told me it would take to convict me in criminal court. Of course both myself and RCI are guilty without a trial in the court of Carolinian's opinion.
 

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I found Carolinian's statement about Michael Coley calling the Civil War the Civil War ridiculous as well. Being from Texas, I know that Texans call the Civil War, the Civil War. The only people that I have heard call the Civil War the War Between the States are more from the Southeast rather than the Southwest. So to use it as an example of not knowing what you are talking about is absurd.


elaine

Sorry you feel that way, but the War Between the States was just too good a target as it is an area of history that tends to have as much spin and myth as it does fact, much of that spin originating in period but some added on later. The name of the war was right there in his post, and thus an easy target, and one that should not stir the emotion that some of the myths about the causes of the war would (one of the best non-spun accounts of that are in Sir Winston Churchill's book The Great Republic BTW).

An example of the spin / myth versus fact in the war that should not hit too many emotional nerves is the subject of ironclads. I once asked in the TUG lounge if anyone could name the first two navies with ironclads and the names of the ships. Several who had been through American history in school came back with what one would probably expect, the Monitor and Merrimack, both launched in early 1862. One or two were sharp enough to give the correct name of the second ship as the CSS Virginia, but they were all wrong. Four European navies launched earlier ironclads beginning with French Emporer Napolean III's navy (La Gloire, 1859) followed by the British Royal Navy (HMS Warrior, 1860, HMS Black Prince, 1861), the Imperial Austrian Navy (SMS Salamander, 1861) and Italy (Re d'Italia, 1861). Alas the Monitor and Virginia were not even the first ironclads in service in the War Between the States. That distinction belongs to CSS Manassas launched in New Orleans in 1861. Ericson's alleged invention of the revolving armoured naval turret is another myth (Captain Cowper Coles of the British Royal navy received a patent for it in 1858), and the alleged invulnerability of ironclads and inherent extreme surperiority over wooden warships was disproved at the Battle of Lissa in the Austro-Prussian War in 1866. In one sub-battle at Lissa, the Austrian second squadron consisting of seven wooden warships fought the four ironclads of Italy's third squadron to a draw until the Italians withdrew, and in the other sub-battle between the seven ironclads of Austria's first squadron and the seven ironclads of Italy's first and second squadrons, the Austrian flagship SMS Archduke Ferdinand Max rammed and sank the erstwhile Italian flagship Re d'Italia and subsequently sank a second Italian ironclad. The American history spin also is that the Battle of Hampton Roads between the Monitor and Virginia was what led the world's navies to change from wooden warships to ironclads. Nope. That was the Battle of Kinburn in 1855 in the Crimean War when the devastation of Russian shore fortifications by four French self-propelled ironclad floating batteries led the leading world navies to start developing and building ironclad warships. Kinburn and the subsequent development of ironclad warships in Europe is what got the Confederate States interested in ironclads, and then the north had to play catchup.

Using the name of the war was a whole lot easier than trying to draw Michael out on what he really knew and what would just have been repeating myths.

And BTW the term ''Civil War'' for the 1861-1865 conflict is incorrect by definition. A civil war is fought between two sides which both want to control the whole of a country. The south never wanted to conquer or control the north, so by definition it was not a civil war. In the English Civil War, both the Royalists and the Roundheads wanted to control the whole of the country, as did the Whites and the Reds in the Russian Civil War. Those were true civil wars that fit the definition of the term. The American conflict on the otherhand was a war of independence.
 
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Carolinian

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RCI has indeed made a number of changes to try to improve its position for defense of another similar lawsuit. In the settlement hearings, one of the questions raised by the judge was that since the only substanitive relief was time limited, what was to prevent someone else just picking up with another lawsuit on the same issues when that time period ran out.

RCI also made a change to limit the inconvenience to them of the one element of substantive relief in the ''settlement'', the requirement that for a time limited period RCI had to offer any deposit made a year in advance first for exchange before putting it in the rental pool. In the old system, to maximize trading power, one had to deposit over a year out. Now that has been altered so that trading power can be maximized well short of a year out. That encourages later deposits, so RCI can put them straight into the rental pool.

The problem for those purely wanting to exchange is that when conditions change for RCI, they will just move the goalposts again. If they get confident that there will not be another lawsuit, that might do it. So would their likely merger of their two points systems in a few years. So might the end of the period of restriction on putting weeks directly into the rental pool. So could any number of other things that might change RCI's theory of doing business. RCI has indeed lost the relative stability and reliability of previous times.

One disagreement I might have with you is over dividing people into those who purely exchange and those who mostly use. Some do both. Indeed, even those who exchange sometimes have loyalties to their home resort and do not want to throw them over to pursue the latest RCI favorite. Many Tuggers follow the comment recommendation to own where you would like to go. Even the weeks I exchange are in resorts where I like to go, and resorts that I have developed a loyalty to.

On the issue of artificial demand for purchases of weeks created by overpointing in collusion between developers and an exchange company, I think this would fall under the term ''unfair or deceptive trade practice'' as used in the consumer protection laws of just about every state.

There was also a lot of discussion on the old TimeshareBeat / Street Talk sites, used mainly by people in the industry about the argument that an exchange company, using the bank analogy that RCI used to commonly use, has a fiduciary duty or at least a quasi-fiduciary duty to its depositors / members. Many there felt that such a duty existed and that it was being breached by RCI's rental to the public programs. Overpointing could present a similar breach.

Finally, I understand what the controversy is and it is both basic and two-fold.

First, there is the controversy for the TS user. Some people buy to use and those people may be disadvantaged when it comes to trading. So those highly desirable OBX and London timeshares do not receive the TPUs that they "should" be entitled to ... because seldom they are traded, they are normally "used."

And there seems to be a disparate upgrade in TPU value for those people that have purchased specifically to exchange.

In the past, there may not have been a conflict in "owning to use" vs. "owning to exchange." In the past, those who "own to use," on the limited occasions when they chose to exchange, were given sufficient trading power to get something similar to what they were giving up. And now those who "own to use" are not being treated fairly because they are underpointed with the TPUs?

Right now, I have a mix of "own to use" my DVC points, my "own to exchange" Dikhololo and Rayburn Country Club, and purchased for both "own to use" and "own to exchange," Sheraton Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach.

And my satisfaction with each of these purchases is commensurate with the purpose for which I purchased them: I am still happy with my DVC points. I will be using points for May, 2012 at my home resort at WDW. I am less happy than I was intitially with RCC and Dik - I am no longer getting the trades that I once did. I am still happy with SBP, I got great trades this past year, I have one good trade that I will use this fall (Hyatt Wild Oak - which I can drive to) and I have a request in for a Curacao resort. If I do not get the trade into Curacao, I will use my SBP for a summer vacation next year. And I will still be happy.

If people know that the goal posts can be moved and choose to purchase based on the present goalpost position, what is the problem with them purchasing to trade?

Second, and really unrelated to the first, is the "fairness" of RCI overpointing resorts. And in this, I believe that you are correct, that the ONLY reason that RCI would overpoint is a defense to the next lawsuit over renting deposits. If they overpoint VV@P for deposits, and underpoint the highly desirable deposits (desirable based on supply and demand - that is more demand than there is supply), when they rent the highly desirable deposits, they will be able to claim a "like for like" based on their own (RCI's) assignment of points. And their assignment of points is artificial so that it benefits RCI, not the owners. So the pointing is not based on market factors, it is based on defensive strategy for the future lawsuits. So RCI is "wrong," "bad" and possibly illegally assigning points.

So the philosophical question becomes, "If RCI is wrong in assigning too many points to certain deposits, is it wrong for those that know what the assignment of points is, to take advantage of it?" And I believe that the answer to that question is, "If the user understands that they are making a decision to purchase an over-pointed resort based on the current assignment of points, and the user understands that the assignment of points is likely to change in the future, then the user is taking the risk of purchasing points that may be worth less, much less, in the future, and it is not wrong for them to make that decision." But no one is telling the developer purchaser that the points are overvalued, so they do not have that critical piece of information (this resort is overvalued on points) when making their decision to purchase.*

Which brings me to a second reason to overpoint a resort, and that is that the overpointing creates an artificial demand. That is, the demand for the VV@P is based on the value of the points rather than the intrinsic value of the resort. Or IOW, the desirability of owning at VV@P is based on the value of the points rather than the actual desirability of the resort. This benefits the resort because it becomes a selling point, "Our resort is highly desirable, look, RCI assigns 50 points to it, and the HGVC Parc Soleil is only worth 25points (or whatever) so we must be great." Hand the potential buyer the RCI book, "Look and see how many wonderful trades that you can make." And then RCI benefits because those buyers don't want to stay in their own resort, they would much rather stay in the nicer resort that is intrinsically worth more points but artificially costs less points, so that drives demand for exchanges.

Does the problem then becomes one of legality because both the resort and RCI are making false representations of the "value" of the resort?

If a resort is being sold based on a point value that it does not deserve, (if analyzed on a true market model of supply and demand), is this a fraudulent representation of "value?" And what a proof problem that will be for anyone making the claim of misrepresentation. "I bought this resort because it is worth 50 TPUs, but I find that I like this resort only half as much as I like the resort that is worth 25 TPUs. And over on Ebay, my resort sells for $1 and I have to pay people to take it off my hands, but the 25 TPU resort that I like better is worth $5,000. If I had known that the TPU value was artificial, I would not have bought this resort, i would have bought that other resort." And the defense to that, "You knew that you were buying this resort where the rooms are small, the buildings are high, the buildings are crammed together, the parking is difficult. And all of that was there for you to see. You freely and voluntarily chose to make this purchase. We did not misrepresent anything. You chose based on the TPUs assigned. And the TPUs were really assigned that way. We don't make the RCI rules. We have no control over the RCI rules changing."

If RCI can demonstrate some rational basis for the assignment of points, is that a good defense to the "mis-pointing" of resorts? In our capitalist system, do they have an obligation to their stockholders to make their best profit that overrides their obligation to the depositors for "fairness"? :shrug:

I don't know the answer. I do know that the people that take the time to learn the rules will benefit from the rules and those that do not learn the rules will be disadvantaged. And the rules can change so that the decision one makes today to take advantage of the rules, can become a bad decision, in the event that the rules change.

Contrast that with the purchaser that makes their decision to purchase strictly based on their perceived value of their purchase without any additional incentives - that person is the "own to use" purchaser. As long as the resort is maintained, the purchaser for "own to use" is unlikely to be "hoodwinked." The goalposts cannot be moved for this purchaser.
 
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Mooper

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Another thing I have learned at Flyertalk is that sometimes the seemingly unofficial cheerleaders for management have more ties to management than one would have thought. For example, Delta biggest defender, by far, on any issue over there is Mooper, and Mooper finally outed himself as a major Delta shareholder. A fellow Delta skeptic over there as well as former NW elite also pointed out in an email that certain other Delta apologists on that board were spouses of Delta executives.

I have no ties to DL management. I didn't "finally out" myself - I've been open about being a shareholder from the first time it became relevant. And, most importantly, you miss the point that some people want to own companies because they love them, not the other way around. If you've heard of Warren Buffet, you probably know that he recommends companies you know, understand, and like. Nothing wrong with doing that, and it doesn't invalidate logical arguments made in favor of a company.

Now carry on. :p
 
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