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United drags passenger off the plane because of overbooking.

Talent312

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In an old post I suggested that the airline could make $$ by using the lavatory for an extra seat. Just install a seat-belt on the toilet, an O2 mask and other amenities. Here, they could've offered it as a free upgrade.

More seriously, I liked the part of the NPR story where they said that the before someone has possession of something, they're willing to trade or sell it for peanuts (like it's someone else's), but once they've taken possession, they develop a its-mine attitude and their price goes up -- maybe double.

So, perhaps the better plan would have been to use some excuse to get everyone out of their seats or off the plane and start the bumping process over again.

.
 

pedro47

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The end results of this story; there is going to be a very huge settlement for this person paid by United Airlines, the City of Chicago tax payers and the City of Chicago insurance carriers.
 

ace2000

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The end results of this story; there is going to be a very huge settlement for this person paid by United Airlines, the City of Chicago tax payers and the City of Chicago insurance carriers.

You left out all of us. I'm sure there will be rule changes which will mean less profits for the airlines and in turn higher prices for us.
 

geist1223

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I did not go back and reread all the Posts. But what almost everyone is missing is this Flight was not technically over booked. The Flight was fully booked. There was not a problem until 4 UA Employees presented themselves at the Gate after Boarding had been completed. Also UA's rights are vastlously different in an overbooked flight and preventing someone from Boarding but once you present your ticket, the Gate accepts it, and you are permitted to Board the AC UA's ability/legal right to remove a passenger are severely limited. Overbooking or need to move Flight Crews are not reasons a passenger can be removed after Boarding.
 

geoand

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Consolidation in the airline industry things (ie., poor service, no food, higher fares, paying for extra legroom in coach


Why NOT find a way to get the four crew to Louisville? You're a large airline with a lot of resources, surely they could have found a way. Heck, they could have rented a car and driven; its not that far. Even UA frequent flyers (on FlyerTalk) are upset with the way UA handled this..

I don't know if this is truly an overbooked situation. Didn't they need to get 4 crew members to a location and that caused the problem? If this is true, than United screwed up with their scheduling of having the proper crew at a location other than Chicago. They screwed up and than decided to use the tactics that caused this PR fiasco. If airlines paid more attention to their schedules and to the flight crews availability, this situation would not happen. The airlines choose to use the "Oh my gosh, we need to get a crew to a location and we don't know how this happened. We will just bump passengers, they will understand." Bad scheduling and bad management caused this problem.
 

geoand

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Exactly right. Only in the airline business is this tolerated. If someone does not show up for, let's say, a ball game that they have tickets for, it is not allowed for their seats to be resold! This is all part of doing business. I find this whole thing of bumping passengers despicable.
I have never been bumped from a bus, train, taxi, etc.
 

davidvel

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This thread about United is great. Its even better because: this flight was not operated by United, but by its regional carrier Republic Airline; no one at United (or Republic) was involved in the altercation between the authorities and the passenger; the crew being shuttled were Republic employees, not United. Yes, it is branded as United Express, but Republic also flies for Delta and American.

I also really like the argument that because the Republic agents called the authorities to remove the passenger, they are responsible for the conduct of those thugs. So, remember, if you call the police because your neighbor has a loud party or someone is racing up and down your street, you will be held liable if the cops wrongfully beat your neighbor or shoot the driver.
 

geoand

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well it was a primary flight crew for another plane at the destination...since it was the last plane out (according to the news story)...its certainly reasonable to need to get that crew to the destination to avoid an entire flight being cancelled.

(but that also goes back to the point where the gate attendant should have offered more money)
Bad management. Why wait until the last flight out to take care of this situation? On the other hand, why did they have a flight scheduled without a crew? Bad Management.
 

davidvel

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Dao: No, I am not going, I am not going!
Cop: We'll have to drag you.
Dao: You can drag me but I'm not going.
Cop: I'm telling you this is going to be a lot harder.
Dao: I would rather go to jail.
Cop: You'd rather go to jail than just getting off?
Dao: Yeah.
 

Marathoner

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I also really like the argument that because the Republic agents called the authorities to remove the passenger, they are responsible for the conduct of those thugs. So, remember, if you call the police because your neighbor has a loud party or someone is racing up and down your street, you will be held liable if the cops wrongfully beat your neighbor or shoot the driver.

False analogy. What happened is that United did not have legal basis to remove the passenger after he took his seat because they entered a contract with him by taking his money and agreeing to fly him to his destination. All airlines can remove passengers for certain reasons such as safety but none of those issues applies in this situation.

Moreover, the Chicago Aviation officers were not police and were not empowered to be on the plane and remove the passenger as they did.

Bottom line is that airline passengers have certain legal rights because we are a nation of laws. Be glad that you cannot be thrown off planes and that you do not have to comply with unlawful orders by safety officers.

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Ken555

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https://www.inc.com/cynthia-than/th...-was-not-overbooked-and-why-that-matters.html

The fact that the flight was not overbooked may seem trivial, or pedantic, but there is very important legal distinction to be made. There may not be a difference in how an airline (typically) responds when it needs additional seats, such as asking for volunteers who wish to give up their seat for a voucher or cash. But there is a legal difference between bumping a passenger in the instance of overselling a flight versus bumping a passenger to give priority to another passenger. Any thoughtful person can see the problem that arises if an airline were allowed to legally remove one fare-paying passenger to allow for another passenger it prefers.

Since the flight was not actually overbooked, but instead only fully booked, with the exact number of passengers as seats available, United Airlines had no legal right to force any passengers to give up their seats to prioritize others. What United did was give preference to their employees over people who had reserved confirmed seats, in violation of 14 CFR 250.2a. Since Dr. Dao was already seated, it was clear that his seat had already been "reserved" and "confirmed" to accommodate him specifically.


14 CFR 250.2a - Policy regarding denied boarding.

§ 250.2a Policy regarding denied boarding.
In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall ensure that the smallest practicable number of persons holding confirmed reserved space on that flight are denied boarding involuntarily.


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davidvel

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False analogy. What happened is that United did not have legal basis to remove the passenger after he took his seat because they entered a contract with him by taking his money and agreeing to fly him to his destination. All airlines can remove passengers for certain reasons such as safety but none of those issues applies in this situation.
Whether they had the "legal" right to bump the passenger for its flight crew is still up for debate. Not at all settled. I for one do not want to leave that decision up to weary passengers at the time of flight who decide they don't want to follow the instructions of the airlines, who clearly believed they had the right to bump him.

So if a flight crew (wrongfully) tells someone that their suitcase is too big and must be checked (when technically it complies), that person should refuse to give up the bag or leave until the issue can be decided by a judge? I do not think there should have been a judge, jury, and appellate court all convened to finally settle the legal rights of the parties when Mr. Dao refused to leave. Whether contractually allowed or not, Republic Airline decided it had a need and right to remove the passenger from its aircraft, and he refused. If they were wrong he could sue of breach of the contract.
Moreover, the Chicago Aviation officers were not police and were not empowered to be on the plane and remove the passenger as they did.
I don't know where you are getting this. What does "empowered to be on the plane" mean? According to the City of Chicago, aviation officers can "temporarily detain and take people into custody until Chicago police arrive," and they are in fact off-duty police officers.
Bottom line is that airline passengers have certain legal rights because we are a nation of laws. Be glad that you cannot be thrown off planes and that you do not have to comply with unlawful orders by safety officers.
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And its not a false analogy at all. The airline and airport has policies and procedures in place, which is to defer to airport security when a passenger is not compliant with instructions. The airline contacted security and asked that the passenger be told to leave the plane. No one at the airline told the officers to bash his face in, and drag him off the plane on his back. There are no facts supporting a claim that the gate agents expected (or could conceivably have imagined) that security would rough the doctor up. Their experience is likely that passengers always get off when security arrives.
 

IngridN

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I did not go back and reread all the Posts. But what almost everyone is missing is this Flight was not technically over booked. The Flight was fully booked. There was not a problem until 4 UA Employees presented themselves at the Gate after Boarding had been completed. Also UA's rights are vastlously different in an overbooked flight and preventing someone from Boarding but once you present your ticket, the Gate accepts it, and you are permitted to Board the AC UA's ability/legal right to remove a passenger are severely limited. Overbooking or need to move Flight Crews are not reasons a passenger can be removed after Boarding.

I thought so too until I read an article in yesterday's WSJ. There's a loophole that allows this because if a passenger refused to follow flight crew's instructions (depart plane because you're bumped), the airline can then remove the passenger for not following crew's instructions!
 

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Bad management. Why wait until the last flight out to take care of this situation? On the other hand, why did they have a flight scheduled without a crew? Bad Management.

happens every single day as flights get delayed/cancelled/etc...flight crews and aircraft get re-arranged on a constant basis.
 

lvhmbh

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What no one has mentioned was that the pilots were on VACATION but instead of getting to the airport earlier to standby for flights they wait til the last one. Don't want to ruin their vacation I guess. Gate Agent apparently made the decision to accommodate them.
 

Elan

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happens every single day as flights get delayed/cancelled/etc...flight crews and aircraft get re-arranged on a constant basis.

Perhaps. But what happens every day doesn't really matter. What matters is what happened in this particular instance. Might have been avoidable, might not. I haven't been reading up on the specifics, but even if I had, going by this thread, there's a lot of mis-information circulating. Will just have to see what ultimately comes out. Even then, the facts will likely get distorted so much by the attorneys we might never know the truth.
 

Tank

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I wish I was the one dragged out - just saying :)
 

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as with all polarizing stories...the actual truth comes out long after everyone has already formed an opinion one way or another.....and noone will care by then.
 

Tank

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The money will be in the bank , hope we hear.

speculations ? I think it will be HUGE !! Broken nose, concussion , teeth, blood.

Who knows what else they will come up with public embarrassment / humiliation
 

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The end results of this story; there is going to be a very huge settlement for this person paid by United Airlines, the City of Chicago tax payers and the City of Chicago insurance carriers.

The doctor will probably die before he sees any money out of the City of Chicago. The tort liability fund in Chicago is years behind on payouts. They have to pay out tons of other settlements before he will see a cent. Since it is joint and several liability they better hope United comes up with a big paycheck.

In the highly unlikely event that this would be a jury trial, it could well be 5 years before it came to trial. Once a judgement is taken it will be years after that before he will get anything. The doctor is 69 years old. Do the math!
 
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LannyPC

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happens every single day as flights get delayed/cancelled/etc...flight crews and aircraft get re-arranged on a constant basis.

Exactly. There are many other things beyond the control of the airlines that can put a crimp in their scheduling. I guess there are a number of unknown and undisclosed facts that must be considered before quickly blaming the airline(s) for poor scheduling.
 

Ken555

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If this is accurate, then it seems the passenger was within his rights not to give up his seat. Expect the airline contract to change in the near future to accommodate this issue to the detriment of the passenger.

http://flyingwithfish.boardingarea....ublic-airline-legality-deboarding-passengers/

Passengers must obey the rules when instructed to, we should all agree on that, but must we blindly follow the rules when instructed if those aren’t the rules? The law must apply equally and airline staff cannot make up and enforce rules on the fly. Specific language exists for a reason, and it may very well change the Contract of Carriage’s language in the near future, but for now the rules are the rules and Republic Airline failed to follow the rules, leading to a chain of events that negatively impacted Dr. Dao as well as United Airlines.



Which leads to this question … how do gate agents enforcing such rules not know the rules?


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Talent312

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...I also really like the argument that because the Republic agents called the authorities to remove the passenger, they are responsible for the conduct of those thugs. So, remember, if you call the police because your neighbor has a loud party or someone is racing up and down your street, you will be held liable if the cops wrongfully beat your neighbor or shoot the driver.

What if you also showed the police a photo of your neighbor with an assault rifle, told them that he was heading for a school with guns, you knew quite well he was just going to pick up his kid? You might be liable for his injuries. A lot depends on what info the rent-a-cops were relying upon.
.
 

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Delta approves allowing almost $10000 for compensation per seat if needed. How long will it take for that to be abused? Book up a plane with a group and have a few hold out for 10k a seat.
 

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I think it is Delta. They have just increased a Gate Agent's Authority to offer up to $2,000 for over booked flights to be voluntarily bumped. Supervisors can now offer up to $9,500. Remember you want a Check and not a Travel Voucher that might have a lot of restrictions.
 
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