Untruthful Tactic Used

[LCR133]

Hello. New question: when a sale was offered and purchase made under the guise that the deeded week doesn't mean anything, it's the points that matter; the deed just needs to have a dedicated week listed for filing purposes. What do you now do after the sale? Truth part, the 100,000 points gives me many options and choices of weeks to use; however, now that I want to sell the timeshare with points, I learn that the points are not transferable, except to immediate family. Without the points there is no more flexibility. Who wants to be stuck with week 2 every odd year? The company (Holiday Inn Club Vacations Orange Lake Resort) will not buy back the timeshare even though they were not truthful about the points being all I needed to be concerned with and that the deeded week meant nothing. Any advice on how to handle or proceed?

 

[Makai Guy]

Not a post about the TUGBBS. Moving to BUYING, SELLING, RENTING.

 

[LCR133]

Ok. Thank you.

 

[davidvel]

The difficulty in seeking any recourse is (at least) two-fold: 1.) Proving that such mis-representations were made, and they were material to your purchase and reasonably relied upon; 2.) getting around the fact that the contact likely says you did not rely on statements/information provided outside of the contract.

 

[LCR133]

The difficulty in seeking any recourse is (at least) two-fold: 1.) Proving that such mis-representations were made, and they were material to your purchase and reasonably relied upon; 2.) getting around the fact that the contact likely says you did not rely on statements/information provided outside of the contract.

The difficulty in seeking any recourse is (at least) two-fold: 1.) Proving that such mis-representations were made, and they were material to your purchase and reasonably relied upon; 2.) getting around the fact that the contact likely says you did not rely on statements/information provided outside of the contract.

Thank you for the response. I agree, it is difficult to prove as it is more of a hearsay testimonial than tangible. However, I'm sure it's their practice and my incident probably is not an isolated incident. Did I intend on purchasing a timeshare unit with Holiday Inn Club Vacations at Orange Lake, yes, but I did not intend on agreeing or buying the week that I did. I only agreed to buy the week I did because they so heavily pushed that the deeded week didn't matter and that it was the points that mattered. They never advised that the points would not be transferable if I was to eventually sell my timeshare. The fact of a possible resell wasn't even a part of their sale pitch, other than the fact that it was an investment that I could pass down to my children. Now that I know and reflect back (everything is 20/20 in hindsight) I realize how coy and sneaky they were not to mention or bring that fact up. So, no, I would not have made the purchase for the week that I did if I in fact knew that the points would not have been transferable in a resale and the week I was deeded was in fact a factor and the only week a future buyer could stay or trade. Again, who would want week 2; and please don't respond me, because I didn't want week 2, I only agreed because the points offered the opportunity to choose any week. Again, thank you Davidvel for your response and the possibility to elicit further responses.

 

[dominidude]

It seems to me that what you are asking is if you have legal recourse.
I'm no lawyer.
From the little legal experience I've had, i believe that in contracts there's a thing called meeting of the minds. If a buyer and a seller agree on what's being exchanged, then there's a meeting of the minds, and the contract is valid, the corollary being that if one of the parties does not know what they are giving up or getting, then the contract can be broken BY A JUDGE.
You seem to be alleging that you didn't know what you were getting, that the seller was much more prepared than you were, and that in short, you got a raw deal. Based on that allegation, you can very well hire a lawyer and try to have a judge break your contract.
However, again, based on my limited legal experience, in contracts there's the concept of "buyer be ware". The judge might look at whether you should have known what you were getting into, and may rule that in fact the contract is valid.
To my knowledge, those are your options, other than having the resort take the deed back. All of your options involve you spending time and money.

 

[LCR133]

It seems to me that what you are asking is if you have legal recourse.
I'm no lawyer.
From the little legal experience I've had, i believe that in contracts there's a thing called meeting of the minds. If a buyer and a seller agree on what's being exchanged, then there's a meeting of the minds, and the contract is valid, the corollary being that if one of the parties does not know what they are giving up or getting, then the contract can be broken BY A JUDGE.
You seem to be alleging that you didn't know what you were getting, that the seller was much more prepared than you were, and that in short, you got a raw deal. Based on that allegation, you can very well hire a lawyer and try to have a judge break your contract.
However, again, based on my limited legal experience, in contracts there's the concept of "buyer be ware". The judge might look at whether you should have known what you were getting into, and may rule that in fact the contract is valid.
To my knowledge, those are your options, other than having the resort take the deed back. All of your options involve you spending time and money.

Thank you for your time and feedback dominidude.

 

[VegasBella]

Your options:
- give it away for free (here on TUG is a good place)
- try to sell it on Redweek, TUG, eBay, etc and just play up all the pros and downplay the cons
- abandon it and let it go into foreclosure
- try to negotiate a deed-back
- get a family member to take it

 

[davidvel]

I don't know much about this particular system, jurisdiction of purchase and buyer, etc. But as a general rule, omission of a material fact by seller who has reason to know buyer is unaware of said fact, is an actionable tort. Assuming that the contract and any disclosures do not advise the buyer that the points are non transferable, and the only right being conveyed and transferable is the right to the underlying deeded week, there is potentially a claim or grounds to get out of the deal.
BUT, the above is a significant assumption.
Are you past rescission period?

 

[LCR133]

I don't know much about this particular system, jurisdiction of purchase and buyer, etc. But as a general rule, omission of a material fact by seller who has reason to know buyer is unaware of said fact, is an actionable tort. Assuming that the contract and any disclosures do not advise the buyer that the points are non transferable, and the only right being conveyed and transferable is the right to the underlying deeded week, there is potentially a claim or grounds to get out of the deal.
BUT, the above is a significant assumption.
Are you past rescission period?

Yes

 

[TUGBrian]

I really get torn up reading these...becase on one hand I fully believe the salesman used creative and specific words/phrases to make you think you were getting something he knew full well you werent. yet on the other hand most owners in this situation did absolutely zero research before making a multi thousand dollar purchase and are now regretting it. there has to be some responsibility on the buyers side for signing a contract that wasnt fully read or understood!

the problem is when it comes down to it...these resorts stand on two very important things. the first being the contract that you signed (that I also fully believe doesnt mention any of the stuff you were "sold" on)...and somewhere in that contract is legalese that says things like:

"I am signing this after reading it completely and understand the contents fully and am not being coerced in any way and absolutely nothing said verbally during the sales pitch applies here...blah blah blah"...so in the eyes of the law...you are entitled to exactly what you signed in the contract.

the second item that is regularly used to defend the sleazy salesman is "you must have just misunderstood him" or a similar statement. rest assured they know exactly how to phrase something so that its lined with truth...but delivered in such a way that you will understand it a completely different way (and that way is of course positive to you as the owner as you understand it, and more often than not...not mentioned anywhere in the contract...nor part of what you are buying).

so as summarized above, you can choose to remain an owner, or discontinue your ownership....both of these choices come with a few options each ranging from "hard to swallow" to "downright crappy"....but it is what it is.

personally for me, if I have been wronged by a company as an individual...I do my best to make that company as miserable as possible on attorney general sites/social media/email/regular mail/complaint sites/etc until they have righted the wrong.


the squeaky wheel always gets the grease!

 

[LCR133]

Your options:
- give it away for free (here on TUG is a good place)
- try to sell it on Redweek, TUG, eBay, etc and just play up all the pros and downplay the cons
- abandon it and let it go into foreclosure
- try to negotiate a deed-back
- get a family member to take it

If I do not have a good viable option, taking an absurd financial loss or staining my credit (I have very good credit & plan on keeping it that way) is not an option, I will suck it up and just keep it and keep using the points. I will probably list it and perhaps offer one of my sons for a quick vegas wedding (not really) so that the buyer can get the points via immediate family transfer (again, just kidding, but that is the ridiculousness of such limitation). I will look into the particulars of a deed-back and explore that option. Thank you for the input VegasBella.

 

[Talent312]

The real impediment to a claim in your case is the parol evidence rule:
"if there is evidence in writing (such as a signed contract) the terms of the contract cannot be altered by evidence of oral (parol) agreements purporting to change, explain or contradict the written document."

Thus, courts are left to interpret the intent of the parties from within the 4 corners of the contract which means that, the determination of whether or not a party has fulfilled their obligations under a contract is from the contract itself.

.

 

[LCR133]

I really get torn up reading these...becase on one hand I fully believe the salesman used creative and specific words/phrases to make you think you were getting something he knew full well you werent. yet on the other hand most owners in this situation did absolutely zero research before making a multi thousand dollar purchase and are now regretting it. there has to be some responsibility on the buyers side for signing a contract that wasnt fully read or understood!

the problem is when it comes down to it...these resorts stand on two very important things. the first being the contract that you signed (that I also fully believe doesnt mention any of the stuff you were "sold" on)...and somewhere in that contract is legalese that says things like:

"I am signing this after reading it completely and understand the contents fully and am not being coerced in any way and absolutely nothing said verbally during the sales pitch applies here...blah blah blah"...so in the eyes of the law...you are entitled to exactly what you signed in the contract.

the second item that is regularly used to defend the sleazy salesman is "you must have just misunderstood him" or a similar statement. rest assured they know exactly how to phrase something so that its lined with truth...but delivered in such a way that you will understand it a completely different way (and that way is of course positive to you as the owner as you understand it, and more often than not...not mentioned anywhere in the contract...nor part of what you are buying).

so as summarized above, you can choose to remain an owner, or discontinue your ownership....both of these choices come with a few options each ranging from "hard to swallow" to "downright crappy"....but it is what it is.

personally for me, if I have been wronged by a company as an individual...I do my best to make that company as miserable as possible on attorney general sites/social media/email/regular mail/complaint sites/etc until they have righted the wrong.


the squeaky wheel always gets the grease!

I just learned of this as I was considering selling my timeshare. Agreed, as a buyer of anything, you have responsibility of a purchase you make; however, I would think that responsibility is lessened and or negated when you are unwittingly mislead to believe something that is not completely accurate. I will be reviewing further and get my information and exhibits in order to be a polite, but very persistent squeaky wheel to the company. If I cannot get an agreeable resolution, I will file for legal action in a court proceeding. To add further inconvenience, I will of course have to file in Florida. I just need to figure out if it will be a better option to go to small claims court (Osceola County =to or <$5k) or civil. TugBrian thank you for your feedback.

 

[bnoble]

Assuming that the contract and any disclosures do not advise the buyer that the points are non transferable,

I've never read the HIVC contract, but I'll bet sight unseen that there is zero chance of this.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Orange Lake was one of the worst presentations we have ever attended, and it was 1991. We wouldn't go to another, if they paid us $500. It was long, it was heavy hitting, and we sat in a room with about 100 people that was too hot and made us sweat. I think that was part of their tactic. Never again. When we stayed in one of the units through exchange, back in about 2003, the unit was in terrible shape.

I doubt you have any recourse. The sales pitches on timeshares are blatantly dishonest. You cannot even record them because that would not even be admissible in court.

I don't understand why people don't just use their timeshares. Just use it as intended. Trade it, if you don't want Disneyworld every year. Rci has huge numbers of timeshares you can get in exchange. Everyone goes somewhere, sometime or other. Getting rid of it now seems like burning a pile of money with a match.

 

[LCR133]

The real impediment to a claim in your case is the parol evidence rule:
"if there is evidence in writing (such as a signed contract) the terms of the contract cannot be altered by evidence of oral (parol) agreements purporting to change, explain or contradict the written document."

Thus, courts are left to interpret the intent of the parties from within the 4 corners of the contract which means that, the determination of whether or not a party has fulfilled their obligations under a contract is from the contract itself.

.

Good information. Thank you. I will need to confirm the contract is silent and or vague. I do not remember reading it, but I will to read it again at a little slower pace and focus on that point. I would think I would then have grounds to request an exception to the parol evidence and offer reasoning and exhibit #1, the contract itself. Thanks again Talent312.

 

[LCR133]

Corre

Orange Lake was one of the worst presentations we have ever attended, and it was 1991. We wouldn't go to another, if they paid us $500. It was long, it was heavy hitting, and we sat in a room with about 100 people that was too hot and made us sweat. I think that was part of their tactic. Never again. When we stayed in one of the units through exchange, back in about 2003, the unit was in terrible shape.

I doubt you have any recourse. The sales pitches on timeshares are blatantly dishonest. You cannot even record them because that would not even be admissible in court.

I don't understand why people don't just use their timeshares. Just use it as intended. Trade it, if you don't want Disneyworld every year. Rci has huge numbers of timeshares you can get in exchange. Everyone goes somewhere, sometime or other. Getting rid of it now seems like burning a pile of money with a match.

Correct. Worst case scenario, after I have exhausted all remedies available to me in an attempt to rectify the wrong, I will keep paying and use the points. I will make the best of a bad experience and enjoy vacationing with my family. Everything else that I don't agree with I say shame on me because I could have made a different choice; however, the misleading points information, that is a shame on them. Especially when I expressed concern about the week and they assured the week was not a big deal, it all comes down to the points. Thank you RickandCindy23

 

[rickandcindy23]

Good for you, LCR133, and I wish you the best.

We tried to rescind our first timeshare purchase in 1981. We are now 62, still own at that resort and now own dozens more. I cannot tell you how angry I was in 1981, when the salespeople at the resort in our home state of Colorado said we couldn't rescind because we went there to a presentation and didn't buy in our home. That was supposedly the difference between a rescindable deal and a non-rescindable deal. Well, we did use the timeshare, although we paid way too much for it, and we have learned a hard lesson about buying developer. But at least we have done well since then. It's a learning curve for sure, but it's a worthwhile effort.

I am sorry Orange Lake salespeople lied to you.

 

[davidvel]

The real impediment to a claim in your case is the parol evidence rule:
"if there is evidence in writing (such as a signed contract) the terms of the contract cannot be altered by evidence of oral (parol) agreements purporting to change, explain or contradict the written document."

Thus, courts are left to interpret the intent of the parties from within the 4 corners of the contract which means that, the determination of whether or not a party has fulfilled their obligations under a contract is from the contract itself.

.

The Parole Evidence Rule and any zipper clause language do not necessarily protect a seller for failure to disclose (and may in fact evidence an intent to defraud).

 

[theo]

OP: I am of the belief that timeshare contracts are very carefully prepared by highly competent attorneys dutifully protecting the best interests of their clients (i.e., the developers). Further, I do not believe in the existence of any magic beans or secret elixirs that can achieve a Houdini-like "escape" from a valid timeshare contract after the rescission period has already expired under applicable state law.

That being said, since yours is evidently a Florida matter, be advised that there is a FL licensed attorney in Largo, FL named Michael Finn, whose practice is Finn Law Group. Finn is no fan of ARDA or its' member practices --- and vice versa. I have no affiliation with Mr. Finn or his law firm, but if you think you have some substantive grounds on which to challenge the validity of your purchase or the associated contract, you might consider giving him a call. He is not opposed to tangling with developers and their contracts if / when he believes he actually has something of substance to work with. If he can't help you (as I am frankly inclined to believe is very likely the case here), he'll surely just tell you so.

I don't have the words to adequately express my own contempt for lying, deceitful, timeshare developer sales weasels who will say virtually anything to "seal the deal", knowing full well that their oral statements are not legally binding anyhow, unless also clearly reflected in writing within the contract itself. In my opinion, such parasites are lower than whale excrement which has sunk and settled onto the ocean floor.

 

[LCR133]

OP: I am of the belief that timeshare contracts are very carefully prepared by highly competent attorneys dutifully protecting the best interests of their clients (i.e., the developers). Further, I do not believe in the existence of any magic beans or secret elixirs that can achieve a Houdini-like "escape" from a valid timeshare contract after the rescission period has expired under applicable state law.

That being said, since yours is evidently a Florida matter, be advised that there is a FL licensed attorney in Largo, FL named Michael Finn, whose practice is Finn Law Group. Finn is no fan of ARDA or its' member practices --- and vice versa. I have no affiliation with the man or his law firm, but if you think you have some grounds on which to challenge the validity of your purchase or the associated contract, you might consider giving him a call. He is not opposed to tangling with developers and their contracts if he believes he has something to work with. If he can't help you (as I am frankly inclined to believe is likely the case here), he'll surely tell you so.

I don't have the words to adequately express my own contempt for lying, deceitful, timeshare developer sales weasels who will say virtually anything to "seal the deal", knowing full well that their oral statements are not legally binding anyhow, unless also clearly reflected in writing within the contract itself. In my opinion, those parasites are lower than whale excrement which has settled onto the ocean floor.

Thank you for the contact referral. When I get a moment (work, three kids, their sporting events, etc...) I will review my contract further. The contingency will be what and how it is written. That will further guide me on how I broach it with HICV. Their response and the wordage within the contract will dictate how I proceed (reconciliation due to their corrective action or Mr. Finn). Right now I haven't pushed it because I want to get all my ducks in a row. When things are aligned, I will make my move and stay the course until I get the resolution I am looking for, no matter the venue (phone, court, site visit, social media, etc...). Thank you theo.

 

[TUGBrian]

also looking at the logical side of things....while you claim to have good credit and want to maintain that....is a few points on your credit score really worth shelling out thousands (if not 10,000+) dollars just to protect it for a few years?

note that this applies to the options of defaulting on your loan and ownership...as well as paying some random company/lawfirm thousands of dollars up front to assist you in fighting this for nothing more than a chance and no guarantee of success.