Why the love affair with Ebay?

[Murphiavelli]

The people on TUG seem to think that you either have to give away a contract, or do everything possible to pay a minimum commission. I find that to be counter intuitive to the resale issues that many timeshare owners face.

I wont be self-promoting, but I have been selling contracts on the aftermarket for years, am active within the timeshare community, and do not charge upfront fees. I list and sell contracts for individuals.

I see Mods on the site referring people to Ebay all the time...that is beyond stupid. Most of the companies on Ebay are either relief company clearinghouses or uninformed owners. If you go to Ebay to see a "fair market value" you are not actually seeing a FAIR MARKET VALUE.

Ebay is the bargain bin. Its advertising, but the target demographic for timeshare is not the most tech sophisticated. I use it occasionally for niche contracts that I need more exposure on....but its not generally where I conduct my business and I tend not to steer people towards enterprises that are perpetuating a false notion. Steering people to handle things that they probably are inexperienced at, will net them less money, and further perpetuate distressed pricing. When someone calls in with a product I do not handle, I send them to a Broker who does. If I know the product has no value...then, and only then, do I say go to TUG, then Ebay.

The PCC's have decimated the aftermarket. Developers have done nothing to stop them....at the end of the day it's the Consumer who is hurt. I believe that the best solution is for Consumers to become educated not on just "dumping" their contract to the next guy who is most likely going to pick it up on the cheap and rent it....but to actually educate them on all of the avenues available to them.

Just my two cents from a LONG time Troll....and avid aftermarket Broker.

Why steer folks to the problem? Or am I missing something?

 

[ace2000]

Why steer folks to the problem? Or am I missing something?

Obviously with your background your view is going to be slanted.

Why steer potential buyers to ebay? Because that's the place to get the most at the lowest price. Where do you recommend? And then we'll all judge.

And by the way, TUG is not a bad place to look either.

 

[Murphiavelli]

I edited my post...but I was mainly referring to sellers.

That is not where to go (as you said) to get the most.

I understand that when a tire kicker comes in looking for a deal you send them to Ebay. Ebay is a risk/reward. I like how Tuggers are honest about where the inventory comes from...but even the best Tuggers don't always know.

My viewpoint is more well rounded than you might imagine.

 

[ronparise]

Mike

There are of course exceptions, Worldmark, and Marriott are two that come to mind. and as you know, you are my "go to" guy for Worldmark. But I think what you are missing with most other timeshares is that there is no money in this stuff. It is truley worth less than nothing. Sellers want out and the developers dont offer viable exit strategies...so up pop the PCCs. They have created the missing piece in the timeshare puzzle...an aftermarket...They didnt decimate it, they created it

As a buyer I go to ebay because thats where the product is and where I get the best price. I dont do it to beat you or any other broker out of a commission. If you post what I want on ebay, Ill bid

As a seller I go to ebay because.... thats where the buyers are. im sure you do a fine job promoting your listings, but there is no place that brings more buyers to the table every day than ebay

 

[Murphiavelli]

Sellers want out and the developers dont offer viable exit strategies...so up pop the PCCs. They have created the missing piece in the timeshare puzzle...an aftermarket...They didnt decimate it, they created it

As a buyer I go to ebay because thats where the product is and where I get the best price. I dont do it to beat you or any other broker out of a commission. If you post what I want on ebay, Ill bid

Hey Ron I appreciate the insight but you are incorrect that PCC's did not decimate the aftermarket. They were not the sole factor, but they contributed HEAVILY to many problems across the timeshare landscape. Some say theyoffer liquidity, but thats not really accurate. They imply or lie to get valuable inventory, and then bottom out the market. They tell the truth to get terrible inventory and an upfront fee...then bottom out HOA's and pass the buck to other owners.

Many products were not illiquid until they arrived. It starts with the Developer, but the PCC's have done more harm than good and made a pretty penny in the process. Ebay perpetuates the problem.

 

[pacodemountainside]

Hey Ron I appreciate the insight but you are incorrect that PCC's did not decimate the aftermarket. They were not the sole factor, but they contributed HEAVILY to many problems across the timeshare landscape. Some say theyoffer liquidity, but thats not really accurate. They imply or lie to get valuable inventory, and then bottom out the market. They tell the truth to get terrible inventory and an upfront fee...then bottom out HOA's and pass the buck to other owners.

Many products were not illiquid until they arrived. It starts with the Developer, but the PCC's have done more harm than good and made a pretty penny in the process. Ebay perpetuates the problem.

I gather you do not like auctions as they tend to bypass brokers like yourself and often get better prices or at least prompt closure!

About only reason for PCC guys is most Developers refuse to maintain a resale market. If all Developers simply agreed to buy back TS at say $1K or 10% of purchase price from original purchaser PCCs would vaporize overnight. Since most Developers require 20% up front no skin off their anatomy! Only loser is HOA( resort owners)!Unlike used cars, houses, etc. most TSs are more or less like new.

If Marriott's, Hilton's, Disney, etc. did not have aggressive ROFR you would be out of business as they too would fall to going market value!

It is basic economics when market imbalances occur speculators, vultures, scammers, etc. move in for the kill. Gold, oil wells, hot Christmas gifts, sporting events, twinkees, natural disasters, etc.

 

[tschwa2]

I think a lot of the people who come here asking for advice are not looking to sell their timeshare in the next 6-12 months and get the best price. They are looking to get out of it ASAP or within the next month or two. Even then ebay is usually listed as the place to sell after trying the free sites. Ebay is recommended as a place to see what is selling and for how much. If you think your timeshare is worth $12,000 and it is selling on ebay for $1200 regularly, or worse yet for $1.00 with all related closing costs, transfer fees and next year usage paid you might realize that that paying $1000 to "list" or "advertise" may not be worth it.

Ebay certainly seems like the place to buy but it is also riskier and for $500 and even $1000 more, brokers may be the way to go for many. For buyers it is usually recommended to research for 6 to 12 months before buying anywhere and especially on ebay where the risks are higher.

 

[AwayWeGo]

eBay Rocks.

eBay is the place to buy timeshares for pennies on the full-freight dollar.

Up against eBay, the resale timeshare brokers & dealers don't stand a chance.

There is no reason to pay 1 nickel more than the eBay going price.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[geekette]

"the people on tug" have a love affair with eBay?

not this one. I have never bought or sold anything on ebay.

I haven't figured out if your beef is with tug or ebay, but I think it's ebay as they are a massive outlet for everything imaginable, including timeshares.

on this website, there are people of various ages, locations, situations, etc., and if there is a pattern of "look on ebay" here, that might be because people of various ages, locations, situations, etc., have found ebay to be the low cost provider.

If "Joe Bob's Timeshare Outlet" had the best pricing and did ethical business, they might be mentioned as somewhere to go to buy. Would you then ask the tug membership what was up with the love affair with Joe Bob's?

Price your product competitively, deal honestly and efficiently with people, and you can be the new ebay or Joe Bob's and revel in referrals forever more.

 

[Larry]

Lover of Ebay

I used to buy timeshare weeks to resell through brokers like Holiday Group (gone but not forgotten) and through negotiation was able to get pretty good deals which enabled me to resell for a profit or rent out weeks for a profit.

I now buy my inventory almost exclusively on ebay where I get great deals rather than "pretty good deals" and have been able to increase my inventory of weeks for sale dramatically.

As others have said Ebay is the place to buy at bargain prices. I have never sold anything on Ebay because for me, it is not the place to sell weeks at a profit.

 

[dlca1]

Information is power and the internet is democratizing access to accurate market information. (Think Amazon, Redfin, Expedia/Orbitz). Ebay is no different. The non-competitive middle-men get pushed out (Best-Buy, Realtors, Travel-agents). The middle-men who are able to provide a valuable service (and not just take a cut) are able to survive.

I'm a new TUG member, but for the benefit of potential new buyers, I can share my directly relevant experiences of going through a broker vs Ebay. Just bought my first two timeshares this month.

I started the purchase of a WKV-Platinum on Nov 9th through a reputable broker and escrow company (who are both highly recommended on these boards). I returned all my paperwork same day. The broker promised a quick sale, but it is 20 days later and I still do not even have a copy of the estoppel. Feel like I got an ok deal, but didn't feel like waiting any longer.

I purchased a SDO-Platinum on Ebay a few days later. Felt like it was a great price. Everything was very efficient. The deal is already closed, recorded and recognized by Starwood. I'm all signed up with Starwood and II and already have put my week in for a trade.

I realize these are just two data points and maybe I just got lucky with Ebay. However, if I BUY a timeshare in the future, I am definitely just going to be patient and buy from a reputable person on ebay.

 

[Murphiavelli]

I appreciate the responses

All I can add, is that a true market indicator has to have some type of cost basis.

If you want to buy a new car, there is a bottom line. It COSTS something to construct.

You may get a killer deal on Ebay, but where did the contract or week originate?

When that inventory clears the market, and I believe it will, then you will have a different set of market factors.

Its not really a beef, but a curiousity as to why many Tuggers send Sellers to the den of thieves?

I am not saying that you cannot close a transaction on Ebay, but I AM saying that if you are buying a hot car...of course you get a good deal! How many high end weeks, or timeshares worth more than $1 are going to continue to appear with a 0 cost basis? Not an infinite amount.

So as long as certain properties retain value, there is a demand index. As long as that inventory stays out of auction, or out of the hands of fraudulent liars, then the floor in pricing is really up to the individual. They actually PAID something for it.

Therefore...you have answered my question about the love affair with ebay. It allows a guilt free acquisition of stolen property, at a cheap price. It perpetuates the Buyers market mentality.

 

[gnorth16]

Mike, when I purchase something I am looking for the best deal. If someone else could not control their purchases/spending/finances/whatever, I am not going to pay more for something because I feel sorry for them.

Am I a jerk for thinking this way? Maybe, but I didn't buy that TS from a PCC, someone else would have for $5 less.

 

[Murphiavelli]

I get it.

That sums up the last line of my summary.

I see alot of pontificating about the "market this", and the "market that"...etc.

I dont begrudge getting a good deal, I begrudge the rationalization about why prices are the way they are. I also disagree with sending people to a bargain bin to determine value.

I might see a used car on Ebay for $2500 less than I think mine is worth...but I dont believe for a second that is the best I can get.

 

[vacationhopeful]

Almost all markets are not perfect.

There is perceived value by buyers - the developer may offer their product with bells attached to their initial sale which does not transfer to a resale buyer. That is all part of the marketing or incentives offered to get a high initial price.

Superior knowledge on the buyer's part allows them to pay less for a product.

Some sellers have a "hardship" forcing a sale below established or known value (death, divorice, job loss, illness).

Additionally, your assumption that there is a floor value of a timeshare is wrong. A special large assessment does create a negative cash value for most weeks. A mud season week is any undesirable usage week and can be rented at lower than its cost.

As for your example of a NEW CAR having a production value as its floor value ... wrong again, as a discontinued model or manufacturer closes down, the prices shrink below their manufacturing cost (Yugo or Pontiac).

As I learned may years ago, a market takes a Willing Seller and a Willing Buyer to meet and agree to a price. That is ALL a market needs ... initial costs is not a factor.

Markets on all products change - prices do go up and down.

 

[timeos2]

It is time that timeshare developers, owners and resellers (and their agents) realize that the PURCHASE PRICE - retail or resale - means absolutely nothing. In he case of a Developer it represents what they feel they need to recover their investment & a good healthy profit (usually estimated at near 50% of the asking price). But irregardless of what that buyer may pay - high retail or low resale even on eBay - it means nothing when they want to use what they bought a right to. Before that is even possible they will have to pay (it MAY be included for 1 year in a retail sale) the annual fee and continue to do so each and every use year they are the owner for. That purchase cost of $50,000 retail or $1 resale means zilch - nothing, Nada - each will owe EXACTLY the same annual fee which is the true cost of any timeshare.

While there are a relative handful of specific resorts/weeks/views - a tiny percentage of the total out there - that may hold a slight edge in desirability or guaranteed time/unit/view - that can be sold for their use rights at maybe a thousand or two above the average cost of <$1000. Even those mostly top out at $5000 or less as they tend to carry an above average annual fee which again is not reduced in any way just because you ay way too much to buy those use rights.

The true market value is not what you "know" it should be, or what you fel is a fair price or commission for a sale - it is whatever buyers and sellers freely agree to in an open negotiation - and eBay, whatever you may think of it or who/how it has been used - is a great such marketplace. It DOES show what a free market sale values these ownerships at in the purest form. Those vulture groups that take people for thousands upfront for the "service" of selling them for $1 (if they even can) wouldn't offer them a $1 if they could be sold for more - they want all they can get too! But they know from experience that even $100 would scare away the few potential buyers they may be able to find.

The unfortunate fact is that timeshares were intentionally and horribly oversold to far too many that don't want, need and can't afford them. The supply of those unwanted weeks will last a decade or more even if every one got sold - unlikely to ever happen. Many have tried to be major brokerage houses for timeshare - and eventually found it un-doable (see the long lamented Holiday Resales - a formerly great timeshare reseller). There are too many low season, low value, high fee ownerships vs the maybe 10% total that are good times, resorts, weeks - and all seem to have ever rising fees. Plus a resort that is in great condition and demad today might be a run down shell in a decade & still need hefty fees or special assessments. No service or price you sell it for can guarantee what they will have or owe even a few years down the road. That purchase cost cost & any fee you may get do NOT go to the resort or help toward any fes due now or later. You are selling a right to pay fees and precious little more. Thats why the model - not the resale market - is broken. The way it is set up doesn't lend value to most weeks and the obligations of ownership tend to make them undesirable except at virtually no cost to obtain.

Thats just the way it has shaken out. eBay or not prices were doomed when the big sell off began.

 

[Murphiavelli]

I appreciate the response John.

Linda, you got on the soapbox with reading into the purpose of my false market indications.

Facebook's IPO, perfect example. A retail sales price...another.

A stolen contract that has value, undercutting others in the market to avoid maintenance because usage is not desired, etc...is a market outlier.

Most timeshare has little value. Some timeshare has good value.

 

[csxjohn]

...Therefore...you have answered my question about the love affair with ebay. It allows a guilt free acquisition of stolen property, at a cheap price. It perpetuates the Buyers market mentality.

:hysterical:You're starting to sound like a developer sales person trying to convince us that if we buy from eBay we are buying a stolen unit.

Typical of many in the sales of timeshares and used cars.

 

[ronparise]

All I can add, is that a true market indicator has to have some type of cost basis.

If you want to buy a new car, there is a bottom line. It COSTS something to construct.

You may get a killer deal on Ebay, but where did the contract or week originate?

When that inventory clears the market, and I believe it will, then you will have a different set of market factors.

Its not really a beef, but a curiousity as to why many Tuggers send Sellers to the den of thieves?

I am not saying that you cannot close a transaction on Ebay, but I AM saying that if you are buying a hot car...of course you get a good deal! How many high end weeks, or timeshares worth more than $1 are going to continue to appear with a 0 cost basis? Not an infinite amount.

So as long as certain properties retain value, there is a demand index. As long as that inventory stays out of auction, or out of the hands of fraudulent liars, then the floor in pricing is really up to the individual. They actually PAID something for it.

Therefore...you have answered my question about the love affair with ebay. It allows a guilt free acquisition of stolen property, at a cheap price. It perpetuates the Buyers market mentality.

I learned a long time ago that what I paid for something is of no consequence when I go to sell it. Someone paid $50000 for the car I drive, two years and 50000 miles later I paid $17000. Today; 10 more years and 110000 more miles later. I might be able to get $1000 for it.

It doesnt matter what someone might have paid for that car in the past...its near worthless today

Same with my timeshare. If mf is more than what I can rent a comparable place for..that timeshare is worth less than zero. and to sell it for more than that you will have to resort to the same tactics that timeshare and PCC sales men do...ie lie and cheat

What Im buying on ebay is not "hot" Perhaps the seller paid someone to find me and perhaps they could have gotten by cheaper if they had done some work themselves, and perhaps they were lied to, but they willingly and probably eagerly wrote the check to get rid of it

 

[geekette]

what was paid to acquire the 'brand new timeshare' has nothing to do with actual value, nor does eventual sale price.

Particularly in the case of timeshare vs other goods, it does cost money every year whether you use it or not.

I can leave my old conversion van parked in my driveway for years, undriven, if I want. And wait for a decent offer on it. Costs me little to nothing to not use the vehicle.

But a timeshare costs at least hundreds, maybe 4 digits, to use or not use it for a year. Big difference.

This is why there is a cheap sell off - to get rid of the obligation.

The value of a timeshare is a matter of opinion. Better known as the market.

I do have a problem with your equating dirt cheap/giveaway timeshares to being STOLEN. That is not the case. This is real estate, there are rules concerning its ownership and transfer of ownership.

if you can prove that someone held a gun to my head or otherwise coerced me, or forged my name, ok, theft/duress, improper transaction.

In every other case, no, this is not theft.

if I willingly sell my van to you for $1, are you stealing from me? If you willingly offer $5k for it, which I accept, am I then stealing from you?

"Value" is whatever the two parties in the transaction decide it is.

 

[ronparise]

I get it.

That sums up the last line of my summary.

I see alot of pontificating about the "market this", and the "market that"...etc.

I dont begrudge getting a good deal, I begrudge the rationalization about why prices are the way they are. I also disagree with sending people to a bargain bin to determine value.

I might see a used car on Ebay for $2500 less than I think mine is worth...but I dont believe for a second that is the best I can get.

There have been arbitragers for as long as there have been markets. and what makes the strategy work is a lack of transparency.

the fact that you can sell something for more than its worth says more about your salesmanship and your clients, than it tells me about the market

In this day of instant communication and the internet and near complete transparency in the market place, I can see how a listing on your website compares with Timeshare Angels and Smartshare and ebay and redweek etc etc in just a matter of minutes...I dont need to pay more than its worth

 

[vacationhopeful]

....
Linda, you got on the soapbox with reading into the purpose of my false market indications.
......

I reply and YOUR market assumptions become the "the purpose of my false market indications".

csxjohn most likely has it right about who you are.

And I don't think I ever had heard before on TUG, that the reason timeshare resales prices are so low on eBAY is because those are stolen deeds. :hysterical:

 

[presley]

I've been following this thread with a variety of thoughts. Personally, I have purchased from developers, licensed resale agents and Ebay. I am most comfortable buying and selling through licensed resale agents. I am one of the people who doesn't mind paying for great service and peace of mind.

With that said, there are 2 sellers on Ebay that I would buy from again if I were in the market. I will not sell that way. I don't have anything that I feel I am in dire need to unload, either. If I did, I'd rather pay all the Ebay seller fees to another Tugger to take it off my hands for free.

To the ethical argument, I'd love to see those who pay thousands of dollars to get rid of their timeshares learn other ways to get rid of them. The point is, once they hit Ebay, the owners have already signed a contract and paid a fee to unload their deed. That was their choice and if the PCC lists it and sells it for $1. to get rid of it before the next MFs are due, the buyer is not stealing anything.

 

[Murphiavelli]

I reply and YOUR market assumptions become the "the purpose of my false market indications".

csxjohn most likely has it right about who you are.

And I don't think I ever had heard before on TUG, that the reason timeshare resales prices are so low on eBAY is because those are stolen deeds. :hysterical:

? Ok, one more chance before I Ignore you.

You may know more than I think you do, but you really have no idea what my experience has been in this industry, whom I work with, have met with, whom I have discovered are sleazy, who seem reputable.

The value of a good is determined by the Buyer and Seller...but if you steal something, then how is that an indicator of value? You have misled someone to achieve ownership for free, or even been given $$$ to take it.

By your definition most timeshare is worth Negative $3000 to $1

I would say your definition is wrong.

 

[ronparise]

I reply and YOUR market assumptions become the "the purpose of my false market indications".

csxjohn most likely has it right about who you are.

And I don't think I ever had heard before on TUG, that the reason timeshare resales prices are so low on eBAY is because those are stolen deeds. :hysterical:

Linda

I can assure you, Mike is not a developer salesman.

He is a salesman to be sure, and Ive done business with him (and will again)

As a saleman myself, Ive often bemoaned the fact that a dishonest, lying, arm-twisting salesman with no morals or ethics can always put more sales on the board than I can, as a listening, caring consultative, salesman like me.

But the fact remains that if my product costs $10 and the guy down the street is selling the same thing for $9. Im not telling that to my prospect. Ill justify my higher price with superior service or some other thing.

Lack of ethics? perhaps, and no different from what the PCCs are doing, but Im ok with it