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Starwood Spinning off Timeshare Division - Vistana Signature Experiences

Lisa, I always enjoy reading your posts. They are always thoughtful and informative and almost always 'right on the mark'.


I certainly agree with you on this. I just don't think that the lack of a clear vision is actionable.

To me, the biggest hit in the gut was that the developer didn't follow the rules of the timeshare game. The timeshare plan is to create a resort, sell individual weeks at a huge profit, then turn the resort over to the HOA, and move on to a new resort. The big bucks were supposed to be made in the initial sales phase, followed by modest profits made by their exchange program fees.

Starwood started out following the usual plan, only they made their resorts swankier and their brochures glossier. And people bought into them. They gladly paid tens, and sometimes even hundreds, of thousands of dollars for the right to use one week per year. They (including me!) justified the purchase because the MFs were so reasonably priced. On paper it looked good because we believed that we were investing in a "prepaid vacation."

And after raking in all those profits, and creating all these relatively happy owners, what did Starwood do? The second the resort sold out, they started increasing MFs significantly, to the point of ridicule. They wanted their cake and they wanted to eat it, too. And they did. They FEASTED on the cake. They made unbelievable profits up front and now continue to make incredible profits by manipulating the system for their gain.

To put it in perspective, Hawaii owners are paying $120,000+ per year to "maintain" a 1200 square foot condo. Harborside owners are paying even more. SVV owners are paying nearly $75,000 a year for their villas in Orlando. I can't imagine how nice my home would look if I had that kind of budget each year...and my home is 4x as big! I can tell you one thing with certainty: It would have a proper stove, a swim-up bar, and the furniture would not be laminated wood over press board. :wave:

Yes, after nearly my 10th year of ownership, it's very clear that Starwood went into this venture blindly and figured it out as they went along. They made some serious mistakes along the way, including the mandatory/voluntary thing and not being more thoughtful on their season and SO allotment. And then, when everything had finally stabilized, they polluted the water even further by mixing in a Flex system, which is creating a lot of uncertainty and fear among its loyal owners.

They really could write a book on incompetency.

But... I'm still an owner because I like their resorts. And if I get too disgruntled, I know that I can unload my VOI to someone else who'll be lured in by their swanky resorts.
 
To put it in perspective, Hawaii owners are paying $120,000+ per year to "maintain" a 1200 square foot condo...I can't imagine how nice my home would look if I had that kind of budget each year...and my home is 4x as big! I can tell you one thing with certainty: It would have a proper stove, a swim-up bar, and the furniture would not be laminated wood over press board. :wave:

The price may seem high, but I don't think it's as outlandish as you portray since you must also pay your share of the resort amenities, not just for your 1,200 square foot condo. That means beach front real estate, insurance, elevators, cleaning staff, front desk staff, maintenance staff, coi ponds, etc. Plus island utilities. None of that stuff is free.

Is there room to find efficiencies and lower the maintenance fees? Yes, I think there probably is. And yes, it is a problem that Starwood takes a percentage of MFs as its management fee, since that incentivizes fee increases and disincentivizes cost-savings. But your comparison of resort condo fees to your home maintenance budget is apples-to-oranges.
 
It is high - do a direct comparison to similar units at the Marriott right up the beach, and the Westin MF is higher than the Marriott MF.
 
It is high - do a direct comparison to similar units at the Marriott right up the beach, and the Westin MF is higher than the Marriott MF.
I didn't say it wasn't high. I said that LisaRex's comparison to her home maintenance budget was unfair.
 
I didn't say it wasn't high. I said that LisaRex's comparison to her home maintenance budget was unfair.

I agree - that's why I'm comparing it to a similar resort instead of a private home.
 
According to the registration documents for Vistana: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1644949/000119312515283303/d907952dex991.htm#toc907952_13

they earned $29 MM in the resort management segment in the first quarter of 2015. Making the somewhat lazy but probably reasonable assumption that their earnings are about the same each quarter suggests that they make $116 MM per year managing things. The same document has a table showing all of the resorts and units, and (including residence clubs) there are 5,078 units. That is $22,843 in profit per unit, or $439 per timeshare week.

Interestingly, $9MM of the profit was from "Resort and Network Management" which is probably their management fees. The other $20 MM was from "Resort Operations and Ancillary Services" which suggests to me that they are selling something to the resorts for more than it costs them, and maybe all sorts of things. I think it is very likely remodel costs are in this bucket, and insurance, but I'm not sure what else they would be taking a margin on.

Of course, $439/week wouldn't be evenly across the portfolio, I'm sure they make more per week in Hawaii than they do at SDO, but these numbers were filed with the SEC, so I would expect that they're accurate in aggregate.
 
I remember when I bought my first SVO week more than a decade ago, I asked about the week shown on the deed (all of my weeks are floating.) The Starwood people told me not to worry about that, it was just for the county and it was unimportant. The two subsequent SVO purchasers, I didn't even ask.

Now I'm wondering if there is any chance that floating owners will eventually get screwed and locked into the week's shown on their deeds. I couldn't even tell you when mine are without finding the deeds, but fixed-week ownerships would have little to no value to me.

Is my concern that the floating weeks could get jettisoned after some sort of merger or acquisition of VSE/SVO justified? Now that I think about it, I don't think that owners have any contract with Starwood guaranteeing their weeks will always float. We don't have any contract with Starwood period. All we really have are our deeds to the weeks we purchased, and all of those contain fixed and specified week numbers.

I took a promise from Starwood as gospel. But now it's not going to be Starwood any more' and soon there will be enough distance between VSE and Starwood that we won't have any ability to go back and sue them.

Having said all of that, I'm not sure what the advantage to VSE/SVO would be in eliminating the floating weeks, I think most of the owners might defect. It just makes me nervous to be dependent on benefits which are seemingly not guaranteed to continue.

I believe the verbage for fixed and floating use is part of the association at the property, not part of the SVN club, so it is deeded to your ownership.

Looking at our deeds, they all specifically contain text describing usage period (annual, every other, etc), and fixed/floating for usage and unit.
 
They started selling Nanea yesterday (as known - no LOs) - 3 and 2Bd OF (no 1Bd), and 2 and 1 Bd Resort View.
During 8-12 month HomeResort period - can check in any day and stay as long as HomeResort Options allow.
These Nanea Options will not give privilege to reserve WKORV/N at 8-12 months.

Oops - wrong thread - will repost...
 
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Did you go to a presentation?

Do you have prices, etc?

Side note: Folks, when you go to a presentation, you can use your cell phone to take pictures of documents while the sales person is out of the room. ;)
 
I am going to start a new conversation... On the WKORV-WPORV thread that I started
 
I agree - that's why I'm comparing it to a similar resort instead of a private home.

My mom owns at the Marriott Ocean Club up the road from WKORV (where I own) and I've stayed there a number of times and often visit there – they are often using their unit at the same time we're at ours and we do lots of back and forth.

It is not really a comparable resort. If you compare the maintenance fees for their new "villas" (which are a more comparable product to WKORV, though the rest of the resort is still not nearly as nice) I'll bet they are a lot closer.

The rooms in Marriott Ocean Club are converted hotel rooms. No full kitchens, no stoves, small dorm-room refrigerators, kind of tacky cheap furniture and fixtures, etc. The comparison to WKORV is not completely without value, but don't kid yourself that it's apples to apples.
 
Correct - you would compare WKORV to the new towers at the Marriot.

Sent from my BNTV400 using Tapatalk
 
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