Is this offer worth the $$$/points?

pwrshift said:

Here's a plan. I don't have the figures with me right now and hope these are close...buy 2 two-bdrm lockoffs (with full kitchens in both parts) at the just announced Grande Lakes Platinum Premiere for about $32,000 each for Marriott owners...

Click to expand...

And before you do that, why not buy a platinum 2BR lock-off resale somewhere for about $8K-10K and "force" Marriott to retro your unit back into the points system. With a $64,000 purchase, I bet they would at least here you out. Then you would have three units capable of producing MR points every year. (some do offer points EY)


Terry

To me it is real simple. If you learn to use and do use your points to their maximum benefit (similar to what Brian does), then buying from the developer can be an asset.

When hotel rooms in Europe are $500 US per night, and airline ticket prices are rising rapidly, MR points CAN be very valuable. If you need more than 100K MR points annually, and do not earn them with travel, then a developer purchase makes plenty of sense.

If you do not learn the system and do not use points wisely, then a developer purchase DOES NOT make sense. IMO

Terry

One thing to keep in mind with points is that your "investment" is totally at the whim of companies who have a huge incentive to make your miles/points worth less. Hotel companies continue to increase the number of points required to stay in a specific hotel. Airlines also increase the number of points. Both have capacity controls and black out dates.

I've played the points/miles game for 20 years and had some amazing vacations. BUT, I've never seen such limited capacity for airline seats using frequent flyer miles in 20 years. Seats are much more difficult to find these days. In addition, with the cost of oil the airlines are adding more fees and doing anything they can to make a buck off of any kind of ticket. "Free" tickets to Europe can now cost several hundred dollars plus the miles. Finally, there is always the risk of airline failure before or after you pick up your ticket.

In short, there are risks to amassing points that need to be included in the risk/reward calculation.

I just purchased, last week, a 2 bedroom lock off in Shadow Ridge from Marriott just for the points. This was our second direct from Marriott purchase in 6 months. It was around $28,000 and could be traded in for 110,000 points yearly. The math was very simple for us and the purchase was easy to justify. We like to go to Europe and places without timeshares, and if possible, stay in very nice hotels. With the points we receive, we won't have to pay $5-8,000 per trip to stay in first class hotels and instead "pay with points". That savings will make up the difference between direct and resale in a few years. Most importantly, this benefit will continue for how ever long I own if I buy direct,while if I purchase resale, I am limited to only trading with other timeshares. There will be a time when my husband and I would like to stay in places other than timeshares. I like this flexibility and I am willing to pay more for it INITIALLY even though it eventually pays for itself.

Maybe we are over-simplifying the formulas but we're happy with our purchase. This is just another opinion for you to consider. I wouldn't do it any other way, especially after the possible changes ahead.

You're not serious are you? You spent $28,000 to turn your unit in each year to receive 110,000 points after you pay your $1,000 annual maintenance fee?

Why don't you just buy your points outright from Marriott and keep your $28,000 in your pocket?

You and your spouse can purchase 100,000 points annually directly from Marriott for $1,250 and you don't have to make any timeshare purchase.

I agree with thetimetraveler, buy the points from Marriott for $1250 a year and get 100,000 points and then you can invest the $28,000 to earn money to pay for your annual purchase of points. I would rescind this purchase immediately if you still can.

may as well wave goodbye to that $28,000

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg227/pwrshift/2bdtier2lock-off.jpg?t=1216508609

Wow ... the point nay-sayers are out in force this time!

Here's another plan guaranteed to keep the controversy going, as I apparently underestimated the number of MR points involved ...

The 2 bdrm suite is shown on the link above, and it is a lockoff with two kitchens. Lockoffs aren't dead at Marriott after all.

Instead of waiting 20 years of buying 100,000 pts a year, here's how I figure you could build 2,020,000 Marriott Reward points for a cost of $66,210 and have ownership in 2 lockoff suites for up to 4 weeks of splitting, trading or using after your 7 year 'trade for points period'.

Included in the price above, the 2 million points would cost you $25,250 in today's dollars IF you could buy them from Marriott. You also have to include some residual value in what you bought and own .. but if we lowball it at 50% that's another $33,000 retained. Now we're up to retaining $58,250 of the $66,210 cost ... the two timeshares cost about $8,000 unless I'm missing something. And you still haven't factored in the incredible value of worldwide luxury travel with 2 million MR points! You'd probably be in the black if you did.

Creative accounting? Perhaps, but it looks good to me as I'm a points hound ... and my kids have left the coop. But, if I didn't already have 6 Marriott weeks and a few million points, I'd be lining up to buy with the first 300 buyers before the Tuesday deadline. If you don't have a Marriott rep, PM me for his phone number if interested.

Summary:
1. Buy 2 plat weeks (not plat premium) at $26,505 without closing costs or MF cost or fees the first year. ($53,010)
2. Factor in 6 years of trade for points fee and MF costs ($13,200).
3. Total cost: $66,210
4. MR points for the above is 220,000 for 2 alternate year usage + 480,000 incentive points for owners = total 700,000 MR points to start with...all included in the above costing.
5. Also included in the $66,210 is 1,320,000 MR points for 6 years of trading the two weeks for points (110,000 x 2 x 6 years)

Total: 2,020,000 MR points and ownership of 2 suites for $66,210.

Travel Costs: Look at Expedia and Marriott sites and do some figuring on the quoted costs for 2 business class seats to Europe and 2 weeks in Cat7 hotels. I'll bet that would add up to some $12-14,000 ... and you'd still have some FF miles left over.

Unique Timeshare: Marriott has had some design creativity with Grande Lakes ... quite unlike any other TS ... they range from a 'regular' non-lockoff 2 bdrm, to lock-off suites with one of them having 2 kitchens, a 3 bdrm suite ... as well as 2 and 3 bedroom townhouses. And neighbour to a JW Marriott and Ritz Carlton - that's also unique.

I know, I know --- you won't have use of your TS for 7 years with this plan but you'll be too busy planning and taking your luxury business class air and Cat7 hotel trips to worry about that. Or maybe you'll use some of your 'lesser' weeks at other TS to trade into Grande Lakes!

Whew. Have fun guys. Deal above apparently ends Tuesday if you're interested. OK -- points nay-sayers -- your turn.

Brian

Brian,

I think the example has, essentially, already been addressed.

The only real difference between your previous example and this one is you've come up with a way to eke out another 250,000 MRP (for which I tip my cap to you, you're efficient, no denying that).

Again, as I showed above, by buying points and creative use of a lot less cash, it's fairly easy to have essentially the same vacation experience at a much, much lower price.

And, I have to say, we're being a bit generous in evaluating your example without financing costs, because I believe a majority - perhaps a vast majority - of those spending $60,000-plus in one swoop on timeshares are financing.

But, again, to each his own. Folks can come, read the examples, and draw their own conclusions.

I like Brian's example and I'll tell you why. In his example you are immediately able to start taking great overseas vacations and continue taking them for several years to come. Timeshare trading options are very limited in Europe and MRPs will put you into first class hotels and business class flights.

It also negates the currency risk and the declining value of the US dollar. The dollar's decline is a reality folks that will take years to correct. In four years the US dollar has lost 50% of it's value when matched against European currency.

In Brian's example you also end up with a residual value of the units which must be taken into consideration when evaluating the total cost of a purchase.

Of course there are problems with any approach to value such as possible changies to MRP point schedules, paying annual MFs, desireability of overseas vacations, etc. However, Brian has given us another example of creative planning and should be saluted for his effort. The single approach to timesharing that is advocated by some such as purchasing MR points rather than being an owner, is unrealistic and baseless.

ondeadlin said:

...Again, as I showed above, by buying points and creative use of a lot less cash, it's fairly easy to have essentially the same vacation experience at a much, much lower price....

Click to expand...

Some people need more than 100K MR points a year. Brian accumulates upwards of 300K per year, between his deposits and purchases. How would you accomplish this without a developer purchase of a timeshare?


Terry

I am not sure I get 300k a year but I do use the Marriott Visa as much as possible, I also sign up for every Marriott hotel promotion and make sure I do my best to stay at a Marriott property when traveling whether business or vacation.

I think I probably get 200k - 300k a year without purchasing points from Marriott. I also know and understand not everybody gets to stay 50-75 nights a year in a hotel for business.

thinze3 said:

Some people need more than 100K MR points a year. Brian accumulates upwards of 300K per year, between his deposits and purchases. How would you accomplish this without a developer purchase of a timeshare?


Terry

Click to expand...

Exactly. Add in the upfront cache of MR points and you've got working points to start on your first 2 week European trip this year...not 5 years from now.

kjd - you've got a good understanding of the points value in your post.

I worry about the future deterioration of points value too, and recommend spending rather than saving once you've got to a 'workable' level, but when I see hotel rates going up 15% or more a year the points are worth even more until Marriott makes a change, which may not come other than increasing the category levels of hotels.

Brian

Brian, I posted recently that Marriott Rewards Points may actually be going up in value as the rates of hotel rooms have increased dramatically in the last few years. Add that to the falling dollar and the value of MR points when used at European hotels has increased even more substantiallly.

I often book two nights in a CY in Ft Worth for 19K points and do not have to pay the $400 cost. My next stay there is in October - paying with points.


Terry

I forgot to mention that we received about half a million points for the purchase (without financing the purchase). So instead of waving my $28,000 goodbye, i'll be enjoying my 2 week category 7 trip to Europe. And, i'll do that every year, too.

The main point is that we cannot accumulate enough points for the type of vacations we want to take just from buying the points from Marriott. When we were purchasing, we considered resale vs. developer and we had to consider the possibility of future changes/limitations regarding resales. So if I paid $12,000 for the same unit resale, I may be limited in the near future in how I use the unit should Marriott change the rules. Then I would feel like I waved my $12,000 goodbye.

Latravel - I agree with you. People forget that you'll always want to vacation as long as you are healthy ... and that means after the kids have grown your vacation needs will change...and it's your time to see the world. How better to do it than when it seems 'free' on points with business class air and luxury hotel locations? The points work for some people and perhaps not for others. Unfortunately, many take sides on the issue because of how they purchased their TS and they defend their decision to the end! We know the resale buyers made a big mistake, don't we.

Brian

I may have made a mistake as well.

I didn't trade my 2009 MLE week for MR points. Instead, I traded it for a 2009 summer unit at Ko'Olina. When doing my math recently, I knew that my DW and I would have enough MR points together to buy two travel packages for 540K points. This is after purchasing points next January.

The question is, can my DW and I combine our points to do this?

Yikes! If not, I will be about 60K points short in my account.


Terry

Terry ... no problem:

Transfer Points


You can transfer your points to your spouse at time of reward redemption provided he or she is also a Marriott Rewards member.
Details

To transfer points, please contact Marriott Guest Services at 1-801-468-4000.

Terms & Conditions for Transferring Points

1. This member benefit is only available at time of reward redemption (only one reward request per redemption, please).
2. Immediately prior to redemption, a member may authorize the transfer of the necessary Marriott Rewards points into the spouse's Marriott Rewards account in order to qualify for a specific reward.
3. Only the Marriott Rewards points needed to redeem the specified reward, rounded to the nearest 1,000 points, may be transferred - not more or fewer.
4. An "Authorization to Transfer Points" form must be completed and submitted to Marriott Guest Services to transfer the points. Forms are available by calling Marriott Guest Services at 1-801-468-4000. A request for reward redemption from the transferee's spouse must be submitted to the Guest Services Center with the Authorization to Transfer Points form.
5. Once the authorization for transfer is received and processed, the transferee relinquishes all rights to the transferred points, and they become the spouse's points.
6. For all "stay" related promotions, a "hotel stay" or a "stay" is defined as all consecutive nights spent at Marriott by a Marriott Rewards member.

We Marriott direct buyers have to speak up! If any newbies read this forum, they're going to think buying resale is the only way to go and that is absolutely not the case.

With the example I gave above, we received enough points with our Marriott direct purchase to earn a 2 week category 7 European vacation with airfare. Given todays dollar, how much is that vacation worth? I believe it is very close to the $15,000 difference in price between resale and developer. Now if you are not interested in taking vacations, other than with timeshares, buying from the developer is not an advantage for you.

pwrshift said:

Terry ... no problem....

Click to expand...

Great. Thanks.

First I am going to concentrate on my two weeks in Hawaii next July. Still need to figure out air travel.

...then in about six months it will be time too start planning that second honeymoon (25th anniv.) to Europe using my travel packages.


Terry

Europe on business class is where you'll see the greatest savings on MR point use IMO. Have fun. Planningis fun too ... watch the Rick Steves shows on the areas you want to go.

Brian

Flexible

How easy/hard is it to book hotel and airfare via MR points?

I think this may factor in as well. I have had issues trying to book FF miles in the past. I have booked hotel stays relatively easy, though.

jack ... you have to have some degree of flexibility in the dates for business class flights on FF miles...similar to economy. I've often found more availability with biz than econ as the 'back of the bus' fills up first. However, you have to do it early and you have to do a balancing act with the available hotel dates too so the flights and stays marry up.

Generally, I decide where I want to go and check the hotel availabilities for MR stays first. Then I check FF availabilities on my chosen airline AND their partners. With UA the ANA site (free to register) is good for this type of 'planning'. This way I can call the UA rep and tell them where there are seats - saves both of you a lot of time. Before calling UA I usually see if I can actually book the hotel on MR points and not have points withdrawn from my account at this point until I've firmed up the air. When it's all confirmed I have Marriott transfer the 120,000 FF miles to UA and confirm the hotel reservation. Not as complicated as it seems.

Here's the ANA site:

https://aswbe-i.ana.co.jp/p_per/sky_ip_per_en/preAwdSearchLogin.do

Brian

I bought Manor Club for 19,500 for points. IF it works - and I'll be letting everyone know if August - my vacation will be:

Fly to ST. John. Stay in Marriott hotel - get 2rooms including upgrading to ocean front for grown ups (kids are okay without view)

Fly to Aruba Stay at my Marriott timeshare.

Fly back to Philadelphia.

On American Airlines (I've been doing my homework) I can get these flights for 30,000 per person.

500,000 Marriott points will give me the 2 rooms (without the upgrade). It will give me 240K miles - more than I need, so I can save some for something else. I have at least 150K more Marriott points to cover the upgrade of the hotel room.

If it works, it's a pretty good deal.

THAT SAID - it's a PAIN. I had to book the hotels and timeshare. Now I have to wait for the date to call the airlines. And I have the maintenance fee for the timeshare (not too bad since I bought Manor Club, but still).

Were I to do it again, I would NOT buy developer. but I do think points can be terrific and worth it.

Basically, I added only confusion to this thread.

pwrshift said:

...
Instead of waiting 20 years of buying 100,000 pts a year, here's how I figure you could build 2,020,000 Marriott Reward points for a cost of $66,210 and have ownership in 2 lockoff suites for up to 4 weeks of splitting, trading or using after your 7 year 'trade for points period'.
...

Brian

Click to expand...

Here is something I was fussing with over a quick lunch today.

Cost per point (to acquire), from your example above = $66,210/2,020,000 = $0.032/point

Cost per point for spending (or "saving"), let's take an example where you take a 2 week Euro trip at two cat 7's and fly biz for 2, and requires 540,000 MRP's. Say it's "value" is $15000/trip . Then, the cost per point here = $15000/540,000 = $0.027/point.

So does this mean it costs more to acquire the points than what you are spending?

In all this I neglected to note you still have two 2-BD lockoffs when the dust settles.