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WKORV resales - How low can it go???

PamMo

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I have to admit that when I saw this, I felt sick. http://www.holidaygroup.com/timeshares/unit/61761 An annual 2BR oceanview at WKORV for $11,280??? I've been watching prices on eBay, TUG, and Redweek and started to think they've leveled out - this has GOT to be rock bottom! It's great for buyers, I guess, but terrible for an owner having to sell in this market. Anybody buying from a developer these days is either crazy, totally clueless, or has money to burn.

************* Price was NOT for an oceanview! Holiday confirmed it was an ISLAND/GARDEN (parking lot?) VIEW and sold for $14,600 plus closing. That makes me feel a bit better. More in line with what we've been seeing lately.
 
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Interesting that WKORV resale prices have dropped below WKV.

There appears to be some buyers at WPORV (keeping my mouth shut mostly... except mentioning to google TUG Starwood sometimes) but not that many sales people around - it certainly is beautiful here. I was not even asked for an Owners Update (not that I was going anyway...) since it had been less than 6 months (never stopped them before)
 
There appears to be some buyers at WPORV (keeping my mouth shut mostly... except mentioning to google TUG Starwood sometimes) but not that many sales people around - it certainly is beautiful here. I was not even asked for an Owners Update (not that I was going anyway...) since it had been less than 6 months (never stopped them before)

We had the same experience when we were at WPORV in March. Very low-key, no hard sales pitch asking us to buy another week, and the hospitality was outstanding. We had experienced a very hard pitch from the Marriott people in December when we were at DSV II in Palm Springs, so the atmosphere at WPORV was a welcome change.
 
Free WPORV Towels

DavidnRobin,

I did the owners update at WPORV.

Very low key.

And I had no idea that for a list of 10-20 referral names, we'd get these really nice WPORV towels.

They are dark with gold lettering.

Our referrals, we were told, would get a card good for a five day stay at WPORV for something like $500-700. Don't know if anyone got the offer yet, but the towels are nice!

And no, we didn't buy.

BW
 
I'm afraid that the obvious but scary answer to "how low can it go?" is zero...

Let's ask ourselves this - if maintenance fees were $10,000 a year how much would anyone pay to own your week? If people can get the same value by renting a comparable suite at a hotel for less, then the value of the timeshare is zero. There are plenty of resorts where the owners are trying to give away their units for free. That is why it is crucial to keep maintenance fees under control. A 10% increase a year means they double every 7 years which is not very sustainable...

If you think of the "Value" of a unit as:

Value = Current Market Price in $ + Present Value of all Future MFs

and think of "Value" on the left-hand-side as a constant then it is obvious that if MFs change (or rather their exected growth rate changes) then the $ price of the unit in the market changes with the opposite sign.

WKORV has the benefits of being a mandatory resort (see selling prices of Amelia vs. Bella at SVV as a comparison) and being in a very desireable location - all these factor in "Value" - so it has many things going in its favor. However, prices will go back up only if and when MFs stabilize.
 
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Maybe I'm missing something but why should the costs to maintain either WKORV or WKORVN be any higher than the cost to maintain the Westin Maui hotel. Sure, the villas have kitchens but they shouldn't affect the maintenance that much. Assuming the tax base has now been adjusted I would expect that the taxes on both facilities would go up proportionally. Shouldn't, then, the hotel room rates go up at about the same rate as our MFs?
 
Maybe I'm missing something but why should the costs to maintain either WKORV or WKORVN be any higher than the cost to maintain the Westin Maui hotel.?

That is a very good question but MFs are up 50%+ over the past 5 years while hotel rates are arguably flat or lower over the same period (see for example http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS29678+24-Mar-2009+PRN20090324). Hotel patrons have the luxury of voting with their feet by going to the hotel next door, or using services like Priceline and hotels.com. All this helps keep prices in check. As a timeshare owner, you have the obligation to pay MFs whether you go there or not.

While MFs will be up this year due to higher taxes for timeshares how were increases justified in past years? I simply cannot see any economic justification (e.g. "cost of living") for a 50%+ increase over 5 years. Aren't there owners on the board? Can't they demand any accountability?
 
Maybe I'm missing something but why should the costs to maintain either WKORV or WKORVN be any higher than the cost to maintain the Westin Maui hotel. Sure, the villas have kitchens but they shouldn't affect the maintenance that much. Assuming the tax base has now been adjusted I would expect that the taxes on both facilities would go up proportionally. Shouldn't, then, the hotel room rates go up at about the same rate as our MFs?

Actually the cost to run a TS should be less than a hotel:

1) We owners only get maid service once a week.
2) Check-in days are heaviest on Friday/Saturday and Sunday so they can staff less on weekdays.
3) HOAs are supposed to run as "not for profit" because the big $$ was supposed to have been made on the front end.

Note that the tax on hotels is $8 per $1000 of valuation. It's $14 per $1000 of valuation. But if they are taxing on the "highest and best use" then perhaps the hotel taxes will increase as well.
 
Own vs Rent

I have been saying here for a long time that increasing maintenance fees and taxes destroy equity.

DannyM is not blowing smoke when he says prices can go to zero.

A buy vs rent computation for Starwood Hawaii resorts makes the case.

Those considering a secondary market timeshare purchase do not look to retail rental rates as the alternative. They are very likely aware of owner rentals which are substantially less than discounted retail rates from Priceline, Expedia, Hotels.com, etc.

Forget about the current economic downturn. In a "normal" economic climate the following assumptions are (I think) reasonable:
- Owner rental rates increase 5% per year.
- Fees increase at 8% annually. (historically true at any rate).
- Opportunity cost of the capital to purchase is 4%.

Using various market purchase prices, and associated rental rates for like units from myresortnetwork, the outcome is scary.
Without laboring the various graphs here, the buy vs rent lines cross between 5 and 7 years in the future. At that point the value of the timeshare is zero. The buyer would be financially ahead by renting.
Said differently, any savings the owner experiences by buying and paying the fees, rather than renting, is wiped out when the lines cross.

Of course, this view completely discounts the premium an owner places on priority access to the reservation system. A renter does not have that access. They must remain more flexible on reservation dates.

Also, not all buyers will view a purchase purely from this dry perspective. It remains an emotional buy for many.

One cannot completely ignore the current economy, however. This makes the financial outlook less optimistic that the assumptions above. Rental rates are decreasing, and fees have increased more rapidly.
Fact of the matter is that timeshare prices almost always drift lower with time. Why? Simplistically put, there are almost always more sellers than buyers. The current downturn only accelerated the decline. When the economy returns to a positive footing there will still be more sellers than buyers. The rare exceptions can be counted on the fingers of one hand. These are prime fixed ski weeks and a few fixed weeks at a couple of beach resorts. Even these have not been spared the ravages of the current economy.

One can argue that the buy vs rent assumptions I used are pessimistic. I truly hope so. But, even if wrong by a percent or two it does not change the outcome. Only the discount to the price a buyer is willing to pay.

All is not hopeless. But, it puts fee increases into some perspective.
It is essential to the preservation of owner equity that fees be bent back. Not an easy order. But, essential.

The obscene property tax increases on Maui timeshare resorts make matter more difficult. Rolling back maintenance fees will be difficult enough. If not successfully appealed these taxes will become the wild card that cannot be controlled. Maui has completely screwed timeshare owners. Its not just the additional $250/year in taxes. Its the lost equity. It now costs a Westin Maui owner $600 a week in property and TOT taxes alone to occupy a 2 bedroom unit.
 
I work for a Fortune 50 company. We make brand name household products. The last 3 years have been very interesting for us. Rising petroleum costs significantly increased the cost of making most of our products. Then the economy started faltering, which put pressure on us to maintain or even LOWER the price of our products even as the cost to produce them INCREASED.

We've been working diligently to figure out ways to keep prices steady. We've cut personnel, reduced benefits, re-negotiated contracts with suppliers, cut entire lines, redesigned packaging, cut travel by 60%, consolidated manufacturing plants, reduced our profit margins, changed formulas, etc. etc. -- all to try and keep our prices steady so that we don't alienate our customer base. You should bend over backwards to please your customer, for no other reason than because it is they who pay your salary.

Starwood, when faced with slowing sales, actually INCREASED the cost of their TSs at WKORV. They've cut benefits promised to multi-week owners. They've passed on 10% increases in MFs each year. Now they are threatening to rob our reserves and implement SAs to pay for delinquent owners.

Are you kidding me?

My question to Starwood is this: What have YOU done to contain costs so that the cost of owning remains static? There are a hundred things you could do to decrease costs on your end, including reducing executive salaries, sharing rental fees with the HOA, reducing management fees, in order to keep the MFs steady. Why haven't you done them? Do you know how insanely arrogant it is to simply pass on increases as if your customers have some sort of endless pocket? Do you have any idea how you are harming future sales by alienating the very people who should be your ambassadors? Do you not realize that $2k per week is already staggering when compared to other properties?
 
Starwood, when faced with slowing sales, actually INCREASED the cost of their TSs at WKORV. They've cut benefits promised to multi-week owners. They've passed on 10% increases in MFs each year. Now they are threatening to rob our reserves and implement SAs to pay for delinquent owners.

Are you kidding me?

My question to Starwood is this: What have YOU done to contain costs so that the cost of owning remains static? There are a hundred things you could do to decrease costs on your end, including reducing executive salaries, sharing rental fees with the HOA, reducing management fees, in order to keep the MFs steady. Why haven't you done them? Do you know how insanely arrogant it is to simply pass on increases as if your customers have some sort of endless pocket? Do you have any idea how you are harming future sales by alienating the very people who should be your ambassadors? Do you not realize that $2k per week is already staggering when compared to other properties?

Here is a crazy scenario that could happen if things continue in this direction. I am not suggesting a conspiracy theory in any way - simply a possible scenario. I hope someone can find a reason why this scenario is impossible because it sickens me to even think about it...

If MFs continue to go up beyond some "cost of living" index it is pretty obvious market prices for the units will keep dropping. At some price point, Starwood could become the "savior" and buy resale units at some price level (say $5K) via ROFR. In this scenario, owners paid $2M-$4M per 2BR unit ($40K-$80K times 52 weeks) and Starwood ends up owning them anyway for 10 cents on the dollar... They can now rent them at daily rates on their website which also gives them an advantage in the rental market. Moreover (and I may be wrong about how things work with SPG website rentals), but even if they pay full MFs on their units, they are more costly to maintain because of daily housekeeping and higher turnover... pretty crazy scenario! :eek:
 
Danny-

I wish it were "crazy." Four years ago, when the Manhattan Club in NYC was being sold by the developer for almost $40,000, I picked up a premium week (3 Saturday nights) the then unheard of price of $17,000. When we wanted a weekend in the city, we called one or two months in advance and made our reservations. Maintenance fees were a bit over $1200 per year.

Fast forward less than four years - MFs $2100+ and you now have to make reservations 9 months ahead to the date! Of course, with that lead time things in life can change. Too bad - you basically can't reschedule. Yet management is making suites available on the internet and, even worse, for less than the daily cost of our MFs.

I have watched the price drop so low over the last year that they are now virtually worthless. Why buy with those MF when you can't make a reservation, when you can get a hotel for less, and when you can get that hotel room anytime you want? The developer (who stacks our board with 4 MC employees to 3 owners) had a buy-back program for $3,000 that is now on hold and the waiting list is too long so they are not adding names. If you wish to simply turn it back to them to be relieved of the responsibility without going into foreclosure, they will graciously give you $100.

It seems that Starwood is a corporation that has to be sensitive to the hotel users but can do whatever they please to the timeshare owners. The scenario you spoke of is not as far-fetched as you think.
 
WKORV resales - How low can it go??? They will be on ebay for a dollar if Starwood continues on the path of self destruction it currently on.
 
It seems that Starwood is a corporation that has to be sensitive to the hotel users but can do whatever they please to the timeshare owners. The scenario you spoke of is not as far-fetched as you think.

But this is a "repeated game" - if this is indeed an actual strategy rather than a crazy, but possible, scenario they will never sell another development again (e.g. Poipu). I would think that the benefits of selling more developments in the future outweigh the "benefits" of screwing existing owners but if the current economy suggests no further developments then I don't know anymore...
 
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LisaRex -- I think I can figure out where you work and your company is a MARKETING GENIUS. SVO, on the other hand, is still living in the marketing era of "sell, sell, sell ... future consequences be damned." It's like comparing the NY jets to an 8th grade football team.
 
Lisa - I just wanted to say that was a great post and something that Starwood clearly doesn't understand. Part of the reason I still do the owners tour is because that is about the only public voice we have in the process (excluding the HOA "meetings"). and while they may be a crappy service organization, they are certainly trying to be at least generate revenue through their sales efforts. If enough people bring up the dramatic rise in MF as their top objection, then their sales team will revolt and there is a small chance the message might get through to the powers that be.

I did this during our WPORV tour this spring and the salesperson told me he would 100% guarantee that MF aren't going up this year for WPORV as that is currently their biggest objection to closing sales. I kept his info and told him I would be following up with him either way and that I hoped he was right.
 
I did this during our WPORV tour this spring and the salesperson told me he would 100% guarantee that MF aren't going up this year for WPORV as that is currently their biggest objection to closing sales. I kept his info and told him I would be following up with him either way and that I hoped he was right.

I completely agree that the salespeople have an incentive to keep MFs low to increase their chances of making a sale. I'm more concerned with MFs at "sold out" resorts like WKORV/N where it is not as clear what Starwood's incentives are. If their endgame is ultimately to buy many of these on resale via ROFR (see stevens397's post re Manhattan Club in this thread) then their incentives look completely different after they sell out a resort.

I am not sure if this has always been the case but I see many "Deluxe" type units from WKORV listed on resale (and probably selling) below the prices of "non-deluxe" units with similar views. Since MFs for these units will be approx. $3000 next year, this may be a warning sign that MFs are approaching a critical point.

Lastly, I would also take with a grain of salt and triple check anything a Starwood salesperson tells me... We were at a WPORV presentation a couple of months ago and were told quite a few "half truths" (e.g. "you cannot buy resale Orlando and vacation in Hawaii because StarOptions don't transfer on the resale market"). By the way, at our presentation, we were told MFs were $2400, but luv_maui reported $2600 as of 3 days ago...
 
MF calculations can be tricky - the amounts in the MF stickie/thread have the 2009 MFs.

WKORV Dlx was ~$2400 (if I recall correctly)

btw - we still are incredibly in love with our WKORV OF Dlx.

and if you look at WPORV - we spent ~$150 per nite (14 nites at $2100) for an incredible 1Bd and studio - at a wonderful resort (but we like WKORV more... based purely on the ability to walk out to one of the best snorkle reef on Maui - WPORV is more elegant and better customer service - not that this matters to us)

peace...
{watching yet another sunset from 6th floor pool corner - sunsets are like snowflakes}
 
and if you look at WPORV - we spent ~$150 per nite (14 nites at $2100) for an incredible 1Bd and studio - at a wonderful resort (but we like WKORV more... based purely on the ability to walk out to one of the best snorkle reef on Maui - WPORV is more elegant and better customer service - not that this matters to us)

peace...
{watching yet another sunset from 6th floor pool corner - sunsets are like snowflakes}

I agree that WPORV is a beautiful resort - the main reason I got interested in timeshares and Starwood was the presentation we saw there.

What upsets me about MFs rising (at WKORV in this case) is not only that an increase in MFs from $1400 to $2100 (say over 5 years) translates to $100 a night vs. $150 a night if you spread your stay over 2 weeks. If it was only that then it wouldn't be THAT bad... Unfortunately, for WKORV 2BR OV for example, it also translates into resale values of say $40K versus resale values of $20K. When you look at it that way your annual cost (MFs + depreciation of $4000 a year) is now approximately $6000 ($400+ a night)... and this is without even accounting for what the initial $40K would have earned in an alternative investment - e.g. a money market fund when interest rates were higher. And if you buy a WKORV 2BR OV today for the all-time low price of approximately $20K, what will it be worth if (or when) MFs go from $2500, to $3500 which is "only" a 40% increase from where we are now?

I admit that I am being a bit unfair and attributing the sharp decline in resale values all to the increase in MFs when clearly the recession and real estate market are also to blame. But the point I am making is still very much valid - MF increases destroy equity and current MFs are at a pretty critical level where additonal 10% annual increases would wipe everyone's equity out pretty fast.
 
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MFs at WPORV started around ~$2100

...and according to a recent post WPORV MFs are now $2600?

My example related to WKORV where (i) the resort is pretty much sold out and (ii) there is a longer history from which you can infer something about how increases in MFs may affect resale values.
 
No one knows what the MF will be for 2010 - we are just making an educated guess, at this point.
 
No one knows what the MF will be for 2010 - we are just making an educated guess, at this point.

The $2,600 number for WPORV came from a post by luv_maui in the "At WKORV this week. Will make observations as I see them " thread. I am not sure if it is the 2009 number or 2010 number... I was quoted $2,400 MF for WPORV about 2 months ago when I visited there. My best guess at this point in regards to WPORV is that it was $2400 in 2009 and it will be $2600 in 2010, but I am not an owner there so I don't have more information on that.
 
I would not put ANY faith in info. you get from a salesperson - they are often the last to know what's going on, and they often will not share negative info. if it hurts their sales. Also - you can't really compare the MF between resorts - not even WKORV and WKORVN.

That being said, David is underestimating the 2009 WPORV fees by about $250. But he's on his 3rd week of a Hawaii Vacation right now, so I suspect he has some pretty serious "Aloha Brain" by now. ;)

Westin Princeville Ocean Resort Villas - 2009

Maintenance Fee(s) $ 2,350.99

Tax - If Applicable $ 0.00 (included)

Membership Fee - If Applicable $ 113.53

Other* $ 0.00

Interest $ 0.00​
 
The $2,600 number for WPORV came from a post by luv_maui in the "At WKORV this week. Will make observations as I see them " thread. I am not sure if it is the 2009 number or 2010 number... I was quoted $2,400 MF for WPORV about 2 months ago when I visited there. My best guess at this point in regards to WPORV is that it was $2400 in 2009 and it will be $2600 in 2010, but I am not an owner there so I don't have more information on that.

The $2,600 number for WPORV was what the saleman told me without any breakout of details or year it was for. Then again, he also told us how easy it would be to use SVN to get into any SVO resort including St. John or Harborside.
 
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