Marriott owners beware of II

Lawlar said:

.........I do not understand why the OP is unwilling to give the name and address of the persons who are going to check in at the Marriott resorts. We all give that information willingly whenever we make a reservation to stay at a resort.

Is the OP paranoid? Is he afraid that big brother is going use this information in a scary way? I don't get it.

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I think it's that paranoia that has us all believing that he's renting exchanges vs giving away an exchange using a GC. I know that's what got my attention and led me down that path.

No. Your Marriott week, once reserved, is yours to do with as you please - occupy it, rent it, have Marriott rent it for you (if they will accept it), give it away or exchange it. However, as discussed in this thread, if you deposit it with an exchange company, then you become subjuect to the exchange company rules, not Marriott's rules.

When you request a guest certificate online, there is a place to enter the guest name, address, and telephone number (required fields). Can you can obtain a GC without completing that information?

gmarine said:

The person says he owns over 100 premium timeshare units listed on his website and says he exchanges another 40 units each year. This while complaining that II asked for the address and phone number of his guest which he doesnt want to provide. But he does not rent exchanges.

Then when he is told to be careful if he is renting exchanges he comes up with a story about how he donates to charity etc and all of a sudden two others come to his defense. It was overkill.

You may be buying it, I'm not. He is making a business out of renting exchanges which affects other II members. We will see whether II buys it.

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You could be right. You could be wrong. I'm actually not sure.

There is a very easy way to find out. Why don't you personally turn him into II. If he is still in business after 6 months, then you were wrong. If he is not in business after 6 months, then you were right.

It would be extremely easy to determine if the units that the OP says are rented coincide with exchanges the OP made or not.

And, if he is in business in 6 months, you owe the OP your sincerest apologies and we expect you to offer them.

If he is gone, then you were right and we owe you thanks and I will give you my personal congratulations.

Either way, either do something or drop the subject.

Wow! Managing all this must be the OP's full time job.

dougp26364:

First, I would like to thank you for explaining some of the differences between the MVC rules and HGVC rules. I have learned a great deal from your other posts as well.

Concerning prohibitions about renting our space at HGVC:

If you check the 2009 HGVC Club Member Guide on page 144 there is a section labeled Club/Membership Use. You will find the following sentence, "The use of Membership or a confirmed reservation for commercial purposes, including rental, or for any purposes other than the personal vacation use by the Member or their authorized guest, is expressly prohibited."

pianodinosaur said:

dougp26364:

First, I would like to thank you for explaining some of the differences between the MVC rules and HGVC rules. I have learned a great deal from your other posts as well.

Concerning prohibitions about renting our space at HGVC:

If you check the 2009 HGVC Club Member Guide on page 144 there is a section labeled Club/Membership Use. You will find the following sentence, "The use of Membership or a confirmed reservation for commercial purposes, including rental, or for any purposes other than the personal vacation use by the Member or their authorized guest, is expressly prohibited."

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Does this mean that an owner cannot rent out their week? Is this in Marriott's member guide too? (if such a thing exists. I've never gotten one from Marriott)

pianodinosaur said:

dougp26364:

First, I would like to thank you for explaining some of the differences between the MVC rules and HGVC rules. I have learned a great deal from your other posts as well.

Concerning prohibitions about renting our space at HGVC:

If you check the 2009 HGVC Club Member Guide on page 144 there is a section labeled Club/Membership Use. You will find the following sentence, "The use of Membership or a confirmed reservation for commercial purposes, including rental, or for any purposes other than the personal vacation use by the Member or their authorized guest, is expressly prohibited."

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Interesting. I don't recall that wording being there when we initially purchased and I do remember them telling us it could be rented. The thing is, since we never really consider renting I don't pay close attention to those rules.

I think the key wording there is "for commercial purpose". Most of us don't buy timeshare to use as a vacation rental business. Most buy to use but will occasionally rent when they can't use their week. I believe the way that's worded would be to prohibit individuals from making a business out of renting but not to keep owners for occasionally renting their unit to recoup MF's should they not be able to use their unit for whatever reason.

laurac260 said:

Does this mean that an owner cannot rent out their week? Is this in Marriott's member guide too? (if such a thing exists. I've never gotten one from Marriott)

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Many timeshare companies have wording prohibiting owners from renting timeshares for commercial purposes or, having their own cottage industry. Obviously HGVC prohibits that sort of activity and I know that Diamond Resorts International is now enforcing that part of their rules.

According to his website he owns multiple weeks at over 27 different T/S's. I have never seen anything like it!

dougp26364 said:

I think the key wording there is "for commercial purpose". Most of us don't buy timeshare to use as a vacation rental business. Most buy to use but will occasionally rent when they can't use their week. I believe the way that's worded would be to prohibit individuals from making a business out of renting but not to keep owners for occasionally renting their unit to recoup MF's should they not be able to use their unit for whatever reason.

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I disagree. The language clearly includes rental as a commercial purpose.

"The use of Membership or a confirmed reservation for commercial purposes, including rental, or for any purposes other than the personal vacation use by the Member or their authorized guest, is expressly prohibited."

I concur. Even if one could argue that "commercial purposes" don't include individual rentals outside of a rental business, the rest of that phrase makes it clear: prohibiting the use "...for any purposes other than the personal vacation use by the Member or their authorized guest...."

I AM WITH GMARINE.....

I don't buy it.

All this is hard to believe but it is possible. When I was at Newport Coast Villas last August, the sales rep said someone owned 80 weeks, if I remember correctly. It was more than a years worth of timeshares! So, it is possible.

Funny, the sales rep said the man was a dentist. Could it be the same person as MLC? OMG, I bet it is!

Dave M said:

I concur. Even if one could argue that "commercial purposes" don't include individual rentals outside of a rental business, the rest of that phrase makes it clear: prohibiting the use "...for any purposes other than the personal vacation use by the Member or their authorized guest...."

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I guess we'd have to go the Hilton for clarification and that doesn't seem worth it on the Marriott forum but, Commercial purposes still appears to mean for profit to me. What the OP is doing would clearly be a for profit business and Hilton would shut it down. However, renting ones individual week (one or two weeks) would hardly be considered commercial and I doubt would be frowned upon, or denied, by Hilton.

I've seen this wording in other contracts, most notably DRI. Sunterra didn't enforce their commercial renting clause and there were members who bought large numbers of units, put them into the internal points based exchange system and rented the most popular weeks for profit. When DRI took over Sunterra they began enforcing that rule and shutting these cottage indusry's down.

The rule is there to protect members for people who would buy large blocks, reserve the best weeks at the earliest possible dates at the most popular resorts then rent them rather than use them. It's there to protect the supply for members, not to prevent individual rentals of a few weeks when an owner can't use them for whatever reason. I suppose that, if one rented their one or two weeks every year, it would eventually be viewed as renting for commercial purposes.

Gee, I wonder why the OP removed the link to his website in his signature? Probably for the same reason he didnt want to give II the contact info for his tenants, errr, I mean guests.

Doug -

I would agree that the analysis of the term "commercial purposes" has some leeway. However, the quoted language prohibits using the week for either commercial purposes or other than personal vacation use. I think one would be hard pressed to argue that a rental is "personal vacation use"!

Dave M said:

Doug -

I would agree that the analysis of the term "commercial purposes" has some leeway. However, the quoted language prohibits using the week for either commercial purposes or other than personal vacation use. I think one would be hard pressed to argue that a rental is "personal vacation use"!

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So now curriosity is getting the better of me. I've E-mail HGVC for clarification. I really believe that if they meant to exclude all rentals there would not be a comma and then the words including rentals after commercial purposes. I believe the intent is to prevent someone from owning strictly to have their own cottage industry of renting units rather than using them. But I'll concede that the wording is somewhat confusing and could lead to misunderstanding.

From the listings on his web site there is no question that the OP is running a going and I assume profitable time share rental business. The weeks I saw on his web site were multiple prime time weeks at the same resorts. I am really surprised that II has not caught on to this yet and what about Marriott? Surely they have knowledge of all the weeks that he owns. He most assuredly is not using them himself or for family and friends. there are just too many of them.

I have to wonder why he would bring attention to himself by posting here on TUG.

Not defending or bashing the OP but I have a friend who owns more than 40 weeks at a resort in Gatlingburg. She has a business of renting out her weeks. I personally think it's a very risky business, especially in the event of a special assessment but she's been doing this for years and is a stay at home Mom who has been able to maintain her lifestyle with her business.

She also happens to give a few of her weeks to the church every year for a raffle to raise money for the youth group. I see nothing wrong with this and maybe it is possible the OP is really doing this too but on a grander scale since he appears to be a Dentist with more disposable income to invest than my homeschooling Mom friend.

I'm must saying...........

1st Class said:

I have to wonder why he would bring attention to himself by posting here on TUG.

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Most people are unaware of restrictions placed on renting for profit or, renting timeshare units as a cottage industry. I've owned with HGVC since 2001 and wasn't aware of the wording posted earlier in this thread about renting an owned week there. So they probably posted out of ignorance of the rules. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened on TUG and the poster burned themselves.

chriskre said:

Not defending or bashing the OP but I have a friend who owns more than 40 weeks at a resort in Gatlingburg. She has a business of renting out her weeks. I personally think it's a very risky business, especially in the event of a special assessment but she's been doing this for years and is a stay at home Mom who has been able to maintain her lifestyle with her business.

She also happens to give a few of her weeks to the church every year for a raffle to raise money for the youth group. I see nothing wrong with this and maybe it is possible the OP is really doing this too but on a grander scale since he appears to be a Dentist with more disposable income to invest than my homeschooling Mom friend.

I'm must saying...........

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The only problem with doing something like this is when you belong to some sort of system where it's first come, first served for reserving weeks. Get a few of those running a booming rental business at a resort booking all the most popular weeks and you'll have a lot of owners who bought a timeshare week to use getting pretty upset. Nothing like buying a week but not being able to use it because someone is profiting by renting out the weeks all the other owners want.

Oh sure you can say, it's only 40 weeks out of 1,000. But if only 10 people are doing it then they're taking up 40% of the weeks available and then you get into trouble with 60% of the owners. That could potentially deplete all the best weeks right at the first opportunity to reserve. Those single week owners who can't plan 12 months in advance may never get a decent week. That's a problem.

Sunterra was a prime example. Their weeks sold for pennies on the dollar resale. Their MF's were inexpensive by industry standards. They had desirable locations that would rent well. Sunterra kept a blind eye to the rental business being done.

Now comes DRI who decides this isn't good for owners who want to use their weeks. DRI is enforcing the rule against commercial renting of units/points. There's some very upset owners that can no longer rent for profit but, there are owners who have points to use that are maybe a little happier with their ownership now that they can actually get the weeks they want for internal exchanges.

Timeshare wasn't developed to become a cottage rental industry for a few people with the money and time to do it. Timeshare was developed as a way for people to take great vacations in mult. locations at a fraction of the cost of buying permanent vacation homes. When people buy timeshares to rent, it disrupts those that have bought to use.

Well said Doug - I couldn't agree more!

pianodinosaur said:

dougp26364:

First, I would like to thank you for explaining some of the differences between the MVC rules and HGVC rules. I have learned a great deal from your other posts as well.

Concerning prohibitions about renting our space at HGVC:

If you check the 2009 HGVC Club Member Guide on page 144 there is a section labeled Club/Membership Use. You will find the following sentence, "The use of Membership or a confirmed reservation for commercial purposes, including rental, or for any purposes other than the personal vacation use by the Member or their authorized guest, is expressly prohibited."

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I got a phone call from HGVC this evening. You are absolutely correct. Renting in any form, even to recover MF's on your points, is strictly prohibited under any circumstances. He went on to say that so long as you don't tell HGVC that you're renting the unit, they don't bother to check up on it. In other words, if you don't tell them what you're doing, it never happened.