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Fantastic resource

PerryM

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The Helium Report is just the mouthpiece for the DC industry – they must make a bunch of money as their spokesman.

Wikipedia has an excellent article on DCs and you can add your wisdom to it if you wish.

Just thought you’d like to see a non-industry biased version of DC knowledge (besides TUG).
 

Sir Newf

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Thanks Perry- Excellent information....I hope they do a similar report on Residence Clubs- which I am exploring, as a real estate investor- I prefer a deeded property...:)
 

travelguy

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The Helium Report is just the mouthpiece for the DC industry – they must make a bunch of money as their spokesman.

Wikipedia has an excellent article on DCs and you can add your wisdom to it if you wish.

Just thought you’d like to see a non-industry biased version of DC knowledge (besides TUG).

Hmmm... Most of this looks familiar. It appears that a lot of the wikipedia article is directly from the old Helium Report Decision Making Guide to DCs. That's the problem with the Drive-By Internet; everyone uses the same copy! ;)

This is actually pretty good background although a little too general (like Helium, IMHO). The best part is that the article encourages due diligence by each individual.
 

PerryM

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Mega Bucks...

Hmmm... Most of this looks familiar. It appears that a lot of the wikipedia article is directly from the old Helium Report Decision Making Guide to DCs. That's the problem with the Drive-By Internet; everyone uses the same copy! ;)

This is actually pretty good background although a little too general (like Helium, IMHO). The best part is that the article encourages due diligence by each individual.


True,

But when you read the article in Wiki you aren't asked to check-off 3 DCs and then all 3 of them call you and the Helium Report gets a Bounty for your scalp.

The Wiki article will grow, and parts of other web sites/chat rooms will make it into the article.

Much of the basic information offered in the Helium Report is sound - it's just the salesreps you need to fend off by reading it is my rub.

I think if the Helium Report was honest and said "We make $1 M+ a year in bounties for supplying you with this information" I would not have a problem. They are biased towards the DC industry that pays their bills.

This is the same problem I have with the Drive-By Media; if they said "We are biased towards ....." I would have a modicum of respect for them. They, like the Helium Report, pretend to have no bias.
 

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A Destination Club Association has been formed, and is working with the American Resort Development Association (a non-profit trade group for timeshare industry) to draft a "Model Act" for destination clubs.

This passage refers to the DC industries efforts at self regulation. At a minimum, these efforts will result in a set of rules governing transparency and protection of membership deposits. If properly drafted, this could be the spark which ignites hyper-growth in the DC industry. I think the industry is going to be enormous...
 

PerryM

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Is that a fox I see in that henhouse?

Self regulation of an industry merely serves the needs of that industry.

Any guidelines or laws passed will be bought and paid for by the DC industry for the DC industry's interests. Take the timeshare industry with the stupid “Same day sales incentives” that are law in many/most states. Those crazy laws were bought and paid for by the timeshare industry and force Ma and Pa into a $30,000 sale with just 90 minutes of pressure and “right now incentives”. "Tomorrow state law forbids us from offering your today’s incentives" – what a stupid law our low life politicians passed.

TUG, and other chat rooms, will be where the real industry regulation will occur. I believe that the vast majority of new timeshare owners who bought from the developer could easily be talked into rescinding if they stumble on TUG in those 5+ days where they can still back out. I’m guessing many DC owners could be too.

Reading just my posts will at least have the new DC owner taking a few more minutes to think the deal over. If they then decide to continue then they have at least had a source of information that is not bought and paid for by the developer. They have done some due diligence with just reading TUG before buying.

As I’ve said, if the DC industry can convince me to cough up the money to buy a DC membership then they have made giant steps in the right direction to self-regulating at least their own company. (Or they have a cheap membership that I consider a Throw Away investment).
 

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Self regulation of an industry merely serves the needs of that industry.

The major "need" of the DC industry is to convince the members of their target market that their membership deposit is safe.

Self regulation is merely a path whereby the DC industry can establish guidelines which make sense for everyone rather than have over zealous lawmakers establish a set of rules based on a misunderstanding of the business and the needs of consumers.
 

PerryM

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Follow the money....

The major "need" of the DC industry is to convince the members of their target market that their membership deposit is safe.

Self regulation is merely a path whereby the DC industry can establish guidelines which make sense for everyone rather than have over zealous lawmakers establish a set of rules based on a misunderstanding of the business and the needs of consumers.

Spot on!!
My ONLY concern is the safety of the returnable portion of my membership fee. If that hurtle is done away with the floodgates are opened to mass consumer participation. I don't know how long it will be before the DC industry wakes up to this fact.

Probably a major hotel chain or timeshare developer will step in and take the market away from the existing DCs. By the time their investors decide that perhaps being a little less greedy will ultimately result in much more profit they will be worrying about being bought out by some other DC who is afraid of being bought out too.



Politicians follow the money - these guys take on just about any position to get more of it for their own desires. If the public dangles more money in front of them than the DC industry we will crawl in that direction and get pro-consumer legislation. However only rich folks are involved with DCs up to now (at least as perceived by the general public) so there is no spigot of money to drink from the public.

Sadly the DC industry will start to throw around money and attract politicians who will eagerly pass whatever laws the DC industry wants. Those will not be pro-consumer.
 
S

Steamboat Bill

TUG, and other chat rooms, will be where the real industry regulation will occur. I believe that the vast majority of new timeshare owners who bought from the developer could easily be talked into rescinding if they stumble on TUG in those 5+ days where they can still back out. I’m guessing many DC owners could be too.

I think you are guessing wrong on the DC owners recending because "VERY FEW" DC members (probably less than 0.5% of all DC members) have actually requested their membership dues to be returned.

Buyer remorse is one area that the DC industry SMOKES the timeshare industry. In fact, I would argue that they are complete polar opposites. This alone could be a HUGE factor in the success ofthe destination club industry....they actually have happy customers.

Timeshare sales usually involve high pressure, gimicks, bait and switch, trapping you in a room, free gifting and a buy-it-now attitude. Buying a timeshare is like buying a used car from "Joe's auto mart" where the words buyer beware are an understatement.

In fact, the entire genesis and sussess of TUG is based upon helping people aviod timeshare buying mistakes.

I agree that Helium is less objective than Consumers Report, but they have been very helpful in helping people navigate the Destination Club waters. The Wikipedia article is 100% taken form the Helium Report Buyers Guide from last year.

Sherpa reports is also a valuable resource for destination club information.

Either way, both web sites generate income (perhaps 100%) from advertisers or new member referrals from the clubs. However, I have found that the web sites do NOT favor any one club. I think most of their information is well thought out, with the only exception that they realy should be pushing for some industry plan to protect member deposits.
 

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My DC prediction...

...my prediction is that these smaller and mid sized DC's will position themselves (ie: enough properties, members, and paper profit) to be acquisition target for high end Resort developer or larger DC's or fractionals....the folks that stand to make lots of $ are the founders of the small/mid-sized DC's...the members will be left to accept whatever new terms will be presented by new owners and without Deed or Bond, luck would be on members' side to recoup the 80%....just my 'crystal ball' analysis....
 
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PerryM

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Guaranteeing the Guarantee and looking over the shoulder

I think you are guessing wrong on the DC owners recending because "VERY FEW" DC members (probably less than 0.5% of all DC members) have actually requested their membership dues to be returned.

Buyer remorse is one area that the DC industry SMOKES the timeshare industry. In fact, I would argue that they are complete polar opposites. This alone could be a HUGE factor in the success ofthe destination club industry....they actually have happy customers.

Timeshare sales usually involve high pressure, gimicks, bait and switch, trapping you in a room, free gifting and a buy-it-now attitude. Buying a timeshare is like buying a used car from "Joe's auto mart" where the words buyer beware are an understatement.

In fact, the entire genesis and sussess of TUG is based upon helping people aviod timeshare buying mistakes.

I agree that Helium is less objective than Consumers Report, but they have been very helpful in helping people navigate the Destination Club waters. The Wikipedia article is 100% taken form the Helium Report Buyers Guide from last year.

Sherpa reports is also a valuable resource for destination club information.

Either way, both web sites generate income (perhaps 100%) from advertisers or new member referrals from the clubs. However, I have found that the web sites do NOT favor any one club. I think most of their information is well thought out, with the only exception that they realy should be pushing for some industry plan to protect member deposits.

Agreed!

Happy customers spending big big bucks is why the timeshare folks are eyeing this market. You know that they could draw up the plans over a weekend. No real estate laws to worry about, unlimited freedom to advertise. Imagine a sales manager who sells to happy folks who remain happy!

For this reason the DC should be running as fast as they can to address the issue of providing some kind of security for the member's guaranteed return.

I can't overstress that the returnable portion is GUARANTEED by the DC. But they really have no way of guaranteeing the Guarantee.

To the DC industry:
What makes you think that Marriott, or Westin couldn't use the same sales offices and sales reps to sell DC's next week?

Why on earth you have not addressed the refundable portion of the membership fee is beyond me and speaks volumes of your lack of concern of being made irrelevant next week by a timeshare company who has all the muscle to make you obsolete by month's end.
 

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Why on earth you have not addressed the refundable portion of the membership fee is beyond me and speaks volumes of your lack of concern of being made irrelevant next week by a timeshare company who has all the muscle to make you obsolete by month's end.

Regarding the refundable portion, why do it when the market does not demand it. For every one person that walks away from the deal due to concerns with refundable portion or appreciation of assets, there are multiple others that are willing to sign up and plunk half a mil down.

It purely business. Its been six months since I joined and nine since I started looking at buying a membership. What I said before still holds true.

If you like what's on the plate, buy it. If not, walk away from it. 'cause the DC industry model is working and they are not changing anything for you.
 

PerryM

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Regarding the refundable portion, why do it when the market does not demand it. For every one person that walks away from the deal due to concerns with refundable portion or appreciation of assets, there are multiple others that are willing to sign up and plunk half a mil down.

It purely business. Its been six months since I joined and nine since I started looking at buying a membership. What I said before still holds true.

If you like what's on the plate, buy it. If not, walk away from it. 'cause the DC industry model is working and they are not changing anything for you.


As long as the DC industry settles for folks who view the membership as a throw away investment they will not care about guaranteeing their guarantee. However, if they want to get 10,000 members they are going to have to act like corporations that care about their customers concerns.

If Marriott offered a DC today I'd raise my price point to probably what they asked - I don't see Marriott going out of business with reckless business practices. Many of these DC's have less than 100 customers and those folks view the membership fee as pocket change.

The DC industry needs to think of how they will survive if a Marriott enters the game and shoots for 500 condos and 5,000 members by the end of the quarter. I doubt that Marriott will follow the current DC model - they will strive to show how they care about their customers with guarantees and bonds or deeds.

I just see the DC industry doing everything it can to invite a major player to decimate them.
 
S

Steamboat Bill

I spoke with HCC yesterday regarding the bond issue and they siad every club is interested in this, but there are no companies offering this coverage.

The DCA (Destination Club Association) was formed to address the safety of member deposits. HCC is a founding member of the DCA and will be one of the first to be certified that they can refund member deposits.

Either way, there is still no 100% guarantee of the DC guarantee and may never be.

I would LOVE it if Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton, etc. enter the Destination Club industry.
 

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But when you read the article in Wiki you aren't asked to check-off 3 DCs and then all 3 of them call you and the Helium Report gets a Bounty for your scalp.

False. As disclosed on the Helium Report website:

Helium Report is an independent media venture and is not affiliated with any company listed in our directories. We do not receive compensation if you join a club or purchase a fraction.

You can access the Helium Report article on destination clubs without checking any of the boxes of the listed DCs.
 

PerryM

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False. As disclosed on the Helium Report website:

Helium Report is an independent media venture and is not affiliated with any company listed in our directories. We do not receive compensation if you join a club or purchase a fraction.

You can access the Helium Report article on destination clubs without checking any of the boxes of the listed DCs.

I don't remember what I asked for 2 weeks ago from Helium but I had to check off 3 DC's, I believe, before I could see a report. Sure enough the DCs called.

I'm guessing that the Helium Report get's paid by the DC industry - I sure didn't pay a penny. I guess there was 1 column of advertising for a rotating ad - I don't know what they charge for that.

To me there is but one paramount issue that the DC industry ducks - security of my hard earned money that I entrusted to them. The Helium Report should be Heralding this topic all the time. In the long run it will be good for the DC industry.

Maybe I'm wrong, if so I humbly apologize. If the folks at the Helium Report do this for free or make a buck or two from the ads I apologize for slamming them. I do spend a lot of time dispensing free advice, maybe the Helium Report are guys after my own heart.

However, if I read their statement "We do not receive compensation if you join a club or purchase a fraction" I can read a $1 M loophole in there.
 
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PerryM

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I spoke with HCC yesterday regarding the bond issue and they siad every club is interested in this, but there are no companies offering this coverage.

The DCA (Destination Club Association) was formed to address the safety of member deposits. HCC is a founding member of the DCA and will be one of the first to be certified that they can refund member deposits.

Either way, there is still no 100% guarantee of the DC guarantee and may never be.

I would LOVE it if Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton, etc. enter the Destination Club industry.

I'd love to see Ritz Carlton step in and do this right. They offer residences right now that match any DC. They would have the name brand to instantly take over the DC industry.

Hopefully they would use the BelleHavens model or even better the WorldMark model of Points to just take over the transform the industry over one weekend.

P.S.
As easy as it is to speculate a major player taking on the DC industry, what would that do to the industry. HCC is probably fine since it would not be in the same league but just about all the others would.

If Wyndham was thinking correctly it would come out with a full line of inexpensive to $5 M condos/homes and integrate it with a Point System.
 
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travelguy

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The Helium Report is just the mouthpiece for the DC industry – they must make a bunch of money as their spokesman.

Wikipedia has an excellent article on DCs and you can add your wisdom to it if you wish.

Just thought you’d like to see a non-industry biased version of DC knowledge (besides TUG).

Perry,

I'm confused on your initial point. You said that the Wiki article was a "Fantastic Resource" and it was old Helium Report stuff verbatim. Yet you're bashing Helium, the info on their web site and their intent in your later posts. Did I miss a connection you are trying to make?
 

PerryM

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Perry,

I'm confused on your initial point. You said that the Wiki article was a "Fantastic Resource" and it was old Helium Report stuff verbatim. Yet you're bashing Helium, the info on their web site and their intent in your later posts. Did I miss a connection you are trying to make?

The Wiki article is independent of the DC industry. Sure they copied some of the Helium Report's info to get going but folks can add their own experiences if they want.

Anyone of you owners could, in 15 seconds, add more knowledge to the Wiki site. Try that on the Helium Report. That's what I was getting to.

The Helium Report could add a Wiki section and a chat room - if either one is ever added to the Helium Report than I will be proven wrong in my conclusion that it is just a mouth piece for the DC industry.

Let's see.

P.S.
I have no reason to add to the Wiki site. I'm not a member of a DC and the Wiki is really for folks with first hand knowledge.

P.P.S.
Maybe I should add my views to the Wiki - why not?


P.P.P.S
There, in 3 minutes I added my concerns for DCs to the Wiki article. Someone let me know when I can add those to the Helium Report's site.
 
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S

Steamboat Bill

As easy as it is to speculate a major player taking on the DC industry, what would that do to the industry. HCC is probably fine since it would not be in the same league but just about all the others would.

I believe that if ANY major hotel chain decides to enter the DC industry, this would be a major positive move for the entire industry. It would add instant credibility to Destination Clubs.

There is a HUGE amount of room for growth in the DC industry. There are still less than 5,000 DC members in the world!

Compare that to DVC, Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton, WM, FF, etc. and then compare the prices per night per room and it make sense that the DC prepresents a new paradigm in upscale travel.

Although, someone may think some of my posts (and other HCC members also) may lack objectivity, the simple fact is that we are happy DC members. I have yet to read one single post from any DC member (HCC or otherwise) that is unhappy with their decision to join a DC. Perhaps some of the T&H members are disapointed, but those problems have been resolved.

Now compare the complaints about the timeshare industry with the destination club industry, and you will quickly conclude that these properties are as different as night and day.

Also, do a search of my first few threads on the economics of joining a DC and you will find that joining a DC can be CHEAPER than buying an upscale timeshare.

Here is a brief example:

HCC Associate membership = $333 per night

HCC Affiliate membership = $296 per night

Ski week (Marriott SummitWatch / Mountainside or Westgate Park City) = $350 per night

Disney Vacation Club = $380 per night
 
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travelguy

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But they HAVE addressed the refundable portion!!!

To the DC industry:

Why on earth you have not addressed the refundable portion of the membership fee is beyond me ...

I cannot speak for the DC industry but I can speak about High Country Club since I have done due diligence and am a member. As a result, I am happy to inform you that they have "addressed the refundable portion of the membership fee"! :clap:

High Country Club is a founding member of the DCA (Destination Club Association). The DCA has only a few members as not all DCs meet the steep financial requirements for membership. One of the main purposes of the DCA is to assure DC members and potential members of the financial stability of the DCA member clubs. One of the major financial tests required for DCA membership is an audited “Net Asset Test” to insure that the DC has the ability to refund member deposits from net liquidated assets should the need arise. The DCA also has strict audit requirements for financial statements in addition to GAAP standards.

High Country Club has audited financial statements as required by the DCA and does meet the Net Asset Test which means that they have net asset levels greater than the refundable member deposits.

Now Perry, I realize that you'll have a problem with this and end-up shifting the target once again. I'm not sure if there is anything a DC can do to keep you from sleepless nights worrying about your refundable membership deposit. Actually, ER or Yellowstone may have a tuck-in service....
 

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My simple test...

I cannot speak for the DC industry but I can speak about High Country Club since I have done due diligence and am a member. As a result, I am happy to inform you that they have "addressed the refundable portion of the membership fee"! :clap:

High Country Club is a founding member of the DCA (Destination Club Association). The DCA has only a few members as not all DCs meet the steep financial requirements for membership. One of the main purposes of the DCA is to assure DC members and potential members of the financial stability of the DCA member clubs. One of the major financial tests required for DCA membership is an audited “Net Asset Test” to insure that the DC has the ability to refund member deposits from net liquidated assets should the need arise. The DCA also has strict audit requirements for financial statements in addition to GAAP standards.

High Country Club has audited financial statements as required by the DCA and does meet the Net Asset Test which means that they have net asset levels greater than the refundable member deposits.

Now Perry, I realize that you'll have a problem with this and end-up shifting the target once again. I'm not sure if there is anything a DC can do to keep you from sleepless nights worrying about your refundable membership deposit. Actually, ER or Yellowstone may have a tuck-in service....

As an investor I get all kinds of stuff in the mail and eMail about all kinds of investment schemes. I apply the same test to all of them:

“Would I recommend this investment to my best friends?”

I could not recommend DCs to any of my friends. I have recommend timeshares for many to buy and even from the developer.

So until I can recommend a DC to a good friend, the DC industry will have to get along without my investment and the many friends that ask me about investments.
 

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It is what it is.

I would recommend DCs to my friends but not timeshares in the same price range.
 
S

Steamboat Bill

My Boca Raton friends LOVE Destination Clubs and won't even consider a timeshare (even the high-end ones).
 

PerryM

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Not ready for prime time; yet...

Here are the problems I have with the DC industry:

1) There is no protection for their guaranteed refundable portion of their membership fee

2) The membership fee is given to strangers so that their name appears on the deed to the condo/home

3) The condos are 50% leveraged and that portion is owned by a lending institution

4) There are no deeds that can be attached to the membership fee

5) There are NO DC laws to protect the member

6) The industry standard of 3 in/1 out could prevent anyone leaving the DC in a meltdown

7) The industry is ready for a bloody consolidation as a heavy weight steps in and dominates the industry


I just don’t know how I could recommend, to a close friend, an investment with these glaring shortcomings. A timeshare I understand and can recommend.

I just know that the above problems will be addressed one day by the DC industry itself or a new comer that will radically change the industry. That’s why I’m still interested and still advising folks that the DC industry is not quite ready for prime time; but the idea is just too good to be ignored by a Fortune 500 corporation ready to take on the industry.


Of course these are just my opinions – someone who has bought a DC has weighed the decisions and decided that the money they are turning over to the DC has passed the due diligence test for their style of investing.

Please don't think that I'm criticizing anyone here for their decision - I am not.
 
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