HCC Breckenridge Lodge For Sale????

Kagehitokiri said:

perry, youre not answering my question.

if his condos/real estate/whatever keeps selling out, and are priced at millions of dollars each, and have considerable condo fees, why would he ever even consider doing anything else? luxury real estate margins can be very good.

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Good grief, I don't know the man but if he wants to take over the high end steak market it isn't much of a leap to eye the DC market with all the high roller folks there.

6 of one, half-dozen of the other??

What’s the difference between leased units and mortgaged units? In both cases the DC does NOT own the unit, someone else does and rent or mortgage is paid to use them. It’s my understanding that many units in many DC’s have a mortgage and monthly MF’s are used to pay the mortgage.

I understand that some/most? units in the DC world are owned outright by the DC’s and this is fine. It’s those monthly mortgage payments that scare the hell out of me and something I’d not want in a DC – even a Trump DC.

Is there a global stat of percentage of DC units owned, leased, and rented?

PerryM said:

I like to keep up with DC’s since I really believe in them – theoretically.

I will wait until my “Throw away” price of about $35k for a full membership in a new DC or until Trump starts one. Anyone who can steer folks to his personal line of steaks will take on the DC industry and dominate it some weekend. It's just a matter of time.

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Considering that EVERYTHING Donald Trump sells is way OVERPRICED.....there is a snowballs chance is you know where that Donald would offer a DC for $35k....it would be more like $350k!

FYI - the OP of this thread is about the Breckenridge property for sale....look how it morphed into a totally different topic. If people want to keep posting...fine with me, but the question by the OP has been answered.

Speaking of steak...has anyone ever tried Kobe beef?

I have tried it three times and hated it all three times and it costs about $75-100 per steak. I would rather go to Morton's any day!

Tombo,

Bill and I joined around the same time i.e. around Christmas of '06.

When I saw something incorrect posted by Bill, I immediately corrected the info as it was dated. Within hours, Bill posted that the info was indeed dated and agreed with the new info. Take whatever you want out of the chain of events.

Regarding your other question for number of properties, there were about 16 properties when I joined. They were looking at Playa at that time but it had not been signed yet. That's two leases out of 16.

IMHO, I am okay with leases at this point as DC's are in the real estate business. No one wants to catch a falling knife in this downturn.

removed as incorrect

I really think that we need to stop giving tombo the time of day. If someone has a real problem with HCC, then I can understand listening to their concerns.

Tombo is only trying to stir the pot. I say that we let him go buy a time share on ebay and then he can enjoy week 38 in the Poconos.

tombo said:

Vineyard, out of all of the facts in my posts you misquote me and somehow that makes you feel good about your DC?
My quote:
"What is in writing preventing HCC from exceeding 25%, 35%, or even 100% of the properties being leased?"
This means exceeding 25%, exceeding 35%, or even 100% of the properties could be leased as I stated. I said or even 100% of the properties being leased, I never said exceeding 100%. If you need it clarified that is what I said. Read into it whatever but everyone knows 100% is the max, we don't need a math lesson.

How about the facts. How about the fact that there was only 2 total leased units with HCC when 2 members joined years ago, but over 3 times that many leased now with the total of leased units equalling 7? My question remains the same: What is to prevent them from leasing any amount they want? There is no safeguard in place. If current actions reflect future trends, you will have more leased properties and less owned properties in the not too near future.

You had 28 owned properties with 2 leased for a total of 30 properties when Bill joined. Today with the great growth of HCC there is a total of 32 properties ( a growth of 2 locations), but only 25 of the 32 properties are owned now. This is less owned units than there were years ago. The growth of locations from 30 to 32 is by way of leasing. Simple math like you like. 7 leased now and 25 owned.

Good rebuttal making my statement sound like I advocated a possibility of over 100% being possible in your paraphrase. I don't believe even 80% leased would ever happen. I simply stated that there is nothing any member or the law could do to stop the family (oops CEO's) if they did decide to lease 100% of the locations. You gave them your money and they now can do anything they want with it because it is now their money. However you sidestep the facts that the number of units leased, and the percentage of total properties which are leased instead of owned is increasing. The total number of units owned and the percentage of units owned is dropping. These are simple mathematics and the facts are relevant, not the "goals" and promises of your DC.

You smugly state obvious mathematics while misquoting me and sidestepping every point I made. For your response to my post to be to prove that the total percentage of anything can't be over 100% (which I never said), followed up by complaining that Perry will use false facts to prove you wrong is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black. You have had 2 days to disect everything I said and the best response you can come up with is twisting my words around and proving that 100% is the maximum percentage possible.

That will help you greatly if the trend to lease more and purchase less continues because you can be confident that they will never lease more than 100% of the properties. There is one percentage you forgot. You as a member own 0% of HCC, you own 0% of any properties they buy, and you own 0% of the money you paid to join.

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Jeez - lighten up! Haven't you ever heard of satire? If I really passionately cared about the topic of this thread, I would have posted a much more meaningful post, but since the amount of money 'at risk' is so small, it isn't worth seriously debating... so I jumped on a humorous gramatical error ('exceeding' does indeed modify '100%' in your sentence), though you can rest assured that most of would give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you were aware that they couldn't exceed 100%. Anyway, it was just a joke and I'm sorry if it hurt your feelings.

Brian222golf said:

I say that we let him go buy a time share on ebay and then he can enjoy week 38 in the Poconos.

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Or maybe Cashiersville, NC, at the 'Paper or Plastic Resort'?

Tsunami DCs....

A Trump DC would be expensive but the units would be world class and hopefully Trump would do a DC right – even allowing members to participate in real estate appreciation. It would be an excellent way to take advantage of all his other holdings – even to the point of the DC owing units at his casinos and to allow access to his golf courses and heck a fleet of limos, jets, and helicopters.

I have no doubt many current DC owners would instantly dump their current DC for his – hence the run on the market. We all know that the Mom and Pop DCs out there would fold like casino cards and one and maybe two current DCs would survive.

No one here actually believes that Trump couldn’t own the DC market overnight do they? He’d probably let one of his kids run the thing. No doubt there would be folks lining up 24 hours in advance to just get a lottery ticket to become a member.

This is why we are not DC members yet – the above scenario has me looking at a Throw Away type of membership until a tsunami DC comes along and the only thing left is that DC and a few battered remnants of other DCs.

Time will tell.

P.S.
Trump makes his own rules - expect something so unique that DC stands for Donald's Conquest.

Steamboat Bill said:

Speaking of steak...has anyone ever tried Kobe beef?

I have tried it three times and hated it all three times and it costs about $75-100 per steak. I would rather go to Morton's any day!

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I have had it several times, both here and in Japan, and I agree - way too mushy... Of course, I don't like filet mignon either; give me a NY Strip, a ribeye, or even a flank steak with chimichurra sauce - I like a steak that bites back!

tombo said:

What is in writing preventing HCC from exceeding 25%, 35%, or even 100% of the properties being leased?

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tombo said:

I said or even 100% of the properties being leased, I never said exceeding 100%. If you need it clarified that is what I said. Read into it whatever but everyone knows 100% is the max, we don't need a math lesson.

You smugly state obvious mathematics while misquoting me and sidestepping every point I made. For your response to my post to be to prove that the total percentage of anything can't be over 100% (which I never said), followed up by complaining that Perry will use false facts to prove you wrong is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black. You have had 2 days to disect everything I said and the best response you can come up with is twisting my words around and proving that 100% is the maximum percentage possible.

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I hate to dig this up again, but High School English Grammar 101 students would view your above quote in RED as part of the same sentence, thus you IMPLY that the number CAN exceed 100%. This may not be what you meant, but it is what you wrote.

I would refer to this as a perfect case of "Res ipsa loquitur"...a legal term from the Latin meaning literally, "the thing itself speaks" but is more often translated "the thing speaks for itself". It signifies that further details are unnecessary; the proof of the case is self-evident.

PerryM said:

A Trump DC would be expensive but the units would be world class and hopefully Trump would do a DC right – even allowing members to participate in real estate appreciation. It would be an excellent way to take advantage of all his other holdings – even to the point of the DC owing units at his casinos and to allow access to his golf courses and heck a fleet of limos, jets, and helicopters.

I have no doubt many current DC owners would instantly dump their current DC for his – hence the run on the market. We all know that the Mom and Pop DCs out there would fold like casino cards and one and maybe two current DCs would survive.

No one here actually believes that Trump couldn’t own the DC market overnight do they? He’d probably let one of his kids run the thing. No doubt there would be folks lining up 24 hours in advance to just get a lottery ticket to become a member.

This is why we are not DC members yet – the above scenario has me looking at a Throw Away type of membership until a tsunami DC comes along and the only thing left is that DC and a few battered remnants of other DCs.

Time will tell.

P.S.
Trump makes his own rules - expect something so unique that DC stands for Donald's Conquest.

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I would LOVE to see a Trump DC and I would probably join as a charter member as I know the prices will rise fast. However, I probably would NOT dump HCC as it represents such great value.

Remember that Donald has filed bankruptcy before, thus a Trump DC would not be a guaranteed as "money ion the bank"

By 1990, the effects of recession left Trump unable to meet loan payments. Trump financed the construction of his third casino, the $1 billion Taj Mahal, primarily with high-interest junk bonds. That put him at a disadvantage with competitors who used more of their own money to finance their projects. Although he shored up his businesses with additional loans and postponed interest payments, by 1991 increasing debt brought Trump to business bankruptcy and the brink of personal bankruptcy. Banks and bond holders had lost hundreds of millions of dollars, but opted to restructure his debt to avoid the risk of losing more money in court. The Taj Mahal re-emerged from bankruptcy on October 5, 1991, with Trump ceding 50% ownership in the casino to the original bondholders in exchange for lowered interest rates on the debt and more time to pay it off.

On November 2, 1992, the Trump Plaza Hotel was forced to file a prepackaged Chapter 11 Bankruptcy protection plan after being unable to make its debt payments. Under the plan, Trump agreed to give up a 49% stake in the luxury hotel to Citibank and five other lenders. In return Trump would receive more favorable terms on the remaining $550+ million owed to the lenders and retain his position as chief executive, though he would not be paid and would not have a role in day-to-day operations.

By 1994, Trump had eliminated a large portion of his $900 million personal debt and reduced significantly his nearly $3.5 billion in business debt. While he was forced to relinquish the Trump Shuttle (which he had bought in 1989), he managed to retain Trump Tower in New York City and control of his three casinos in Atlantic City. Chase Manhattan Bank, which lent Trump the money to buy the West Side yards, his biggest Manhattan parcel, forced the sale of a parcel to Asian developers. According to former members of the Trump Organization, Trump did not retain any ownership of the site's real estate - the owners merely promised to give him about 30 percent of the profits once the site was completely developed or sold. Until that time, the owners wanted to keep Trump on to do what he did best: build things. They gave him a modest construction fee and a management fee to oversee the development. The new owners also allowed him to put his name on the buildings that eventually rose on the yards because his well-known moniker allowed them to charge a premium for their condos.

In 1995, he combined his casino holdings into the publicly held Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts. Wall Street drove its stock above $35 in 1996, but by 1998 it had fallen into single digits as the company remained profitless and struggled to pay just the interest on its nearly $2 billion in debt. Under such financial pressure, the properties were unable to make the improvements necessary for keeping up with their flashier competitors.

Problems loomed for Trump's casino resorts. In a May 28, 2004, Wall Street Journal article, Trump said the specter of bankruptcy bothered him "from a psychological standpoint," but added, "it really wouldn't matter that much." A number of his bondholders disagreed. In the same article, Meyer Marvald, a Florida retiree who said he owned about $44,000 of the bonds, claimed "[Trump] has the Sword of Damocles hanging over our heads." On October 21, 2004, Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts announced a restructuring of its debt. The plan called for Trump's individual ownership to be reduced from 56 percent to 27 percent, with bondholders receiving stock in exchange for surrendering part of the debt. Since then, Trump Hotels has been forced to seek voluntary bankruptcy protection to stay afloat. After the company applied for Chapter 11 Protection in November 2004, Trump relinquished his CEO position but retained a role as Chairman of the Board. In May 2005the company re-emerged from bankruptcy as Trump Entertainment Resorts Holdings.

Only in the USA...

Hmm --- I may be missing something here, but why would anyone put their money in a "deedless" vehicle like a DC run by a chronic bankrupt like Trump???? As you say, his skills are in building, and of course, in self-promotion.

Based on brand name, I have checked out the Trump Tower as possible accommodation when we travel to NYC, but some reports on Tripadvisor say service stinks. Imagine a DC with poor service.

for info on luxury properties, i highly recommend > http://flyertalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=220
as opposed to tripadvisor.

Brian222golf said:

I really think that we need to stop giving tombo the time of day... Tombo is only trying to stir the pot.

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all tombo does is troll. hes successful if there is any response. i dont even read his posts anymore.

Kagehitokiri said:

for info on luxury properties, i highly recommend > http://flyertalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=220
as opposed to tripadvisor.
.

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Thanks Kage... we will check it out.

Before TUG Bourne, there was Flyertalk Bourne.
AA 1MM

joined Apr 2001 - almost an original member
last post Feb 4 2007

personally, im pretty much only active in the forum i linked. i joined FT in Jun 2006, and have been active since then, whereas ive only been active in this forum since i noticed it in July 2007.

youre welcome vivalour, hope its useful.

Kagehitokiri said:

true back and forth discussion is great. everyone benefits from it. ad hominem attacks, not so much.

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Kagehitokiri said:

all tombo does is troll. hes successful if there is any response. i dont even read his posts anymore.

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It sure didn't take you very long to change your tune.

RLG,

troll

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

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(NSFW source can be found via google)

perhaps you were not aware of that usage. i used the verb form. clearly not an ad hominem (personal) attack.

i was only voicing my support of Brian222golf's comments. i am in complete agreement with the comments of his that i quoted.

Kage

Great defination of a troll.

before internet usage >

troll(v) / trolling(v)

1. To fish for by trailing a baited line from behind a slowly moving boat
2. Slang To patrol (an area) in search for someone or something

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(American Heritage Dictionary, dictionary.com)

"baited"(adj), hence the synonymous to "troll," "bait" (v)

Yes, I understood what you meant by a "troll". I've been participating in message boards since they were on usenet rather than web forums. I also understand that it's derogatory.

I'm not sure, however, whether you know what "ad hominem" actually means.

Here's an explanation from Wikipedia:

An ad hominem argument...consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim...

It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive... which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument.

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I think accusing someone of being a "troll" simply because they disagree with your point of view fits that definition pretty well.

(BTW, I searched for all of Tombo's posts, since I was curious whether it was true that he is a troll. The only posts that I saw that were particularly argumentative were on the subject of destination clubs.)

Is that an asteroid I see? And is that a gnome?

Trump is a high roller who is riding high now – I suspect the folks who are currently in the DC business have similar backgrounds – high rollers who occasionally go for broke, go bust, and somehow end up on top again.

Me, I’d go with Trump in a second – I’d be one of those guys standing in line at 4 AM waiting to get a lottery ticket for the limited memberships.

The more important image is current DC owners sending in those exit letters and trying to get some money out of the current DC they are in and get in on Trump. I don't know how sensitive the DC industry is to an event like this - my guess is that it would be an asteroid impact event and wipe out the industry with the new tycoon taking all the marbles - just my guess.

Doesn't that sound like The Donald?

But, Trump is just one out of many folks who could instantly capture the publics attention and cause all kinds of problems for a tiny cottage industry like the DC industry.


A word on treating other Tuggers – why must we insult them? If you don’t like them or are tired of a thread just zone out or stop subscribing to a thread and not impose your particular definition of fellow timeshare owners upon the rest of us.

One man's troll is another man's lawn gnome - harmless, like Travelocity's one on TV.

i think im with LTTravel, and i wont bother posting anymore.

PerryM said:

Me, I’d go with Trump in a second – I’d be one of those guys standing in line at 4 AM waiting to get a lottery ticket for the limited memberships.

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Are you kidding me?

The idea that anyone would give money to Trump in a total "trust me" situation is almost laughable.

I don't really understand why the DC cheerleaders have such trust in the management of their DC's. However, at least the existing managers don't a long track record of losing investors' money like Trump does. (Althoug he's come out just fine during the repeated trips to bankruptcy for his companies.)

What priority do think safety of members' deposits would have in a Trump DC?