Trading StarOptions for SPG points, value, etc

So that we're no longer hijacking the 2010 MFs thread, I'll continue the discussion here:

DannyM said:

For example 29 nights in hotels are worth $23,000? And you make it sound like you booked an $800/night suite for 10,000 SPs/day? No way... I doubt you used SPs to book suites outright

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Above and beyond the normal room point values, Starwood has 2 levels of Specialty Select upgrades which you can prebook. For approx. 15% over normal points, you typically get Jr Suites at the "nicer" hotels, but it is completely at the discretion of the hotel and what it will offer you at the time of booking -- this is not an upgrade at check-in based on availability.

For example, 14,500 SPG points/night booked us a EUR1190/night Junior suite (which is what I used in my price comparision), but we actually got upgraded to a Grand Luxe suite (EUR2200/night).

Just to clarify one point - there is no relationship between Staroptions and Starpoints. When you convert your week to Starpoints - Staroptions are not involved in any way. Staroptions can only be used for SVN reservations.

YYJMSP said:

So that we're no longer hijacking the 2010 MFs thread, I'll continue the discussion here:



Above and beyond the normal room point values, Starwood has 2 levels of Specialty Select upgrades which you can prebook. For approx. 15% over normal points, you typically get Jr Suites at the "nicer" hotels, but it is completely at the discretion of the hotel and what it will offer you at the time of booking -- this is not an upgrade at check-in based on availability.

For example, 14,500 SPG points/night booked us a EUR1190/night Junior suite (which is what I used in my price comparision), but we actually got upgraded to a Grand Luxe suite (EUR2200/night).

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I am aware of these types of bookings - but this "value" you describe is very atypical... I booked a Deluxe Garden View room at the Sheraton in Kauai for 11,500 SPs/night (vs. 10,000 SPs/night for a standard garden wing room). They actually wanted 20,000 SPs for an OV room (not a suite). The cost of the room I booked was about $250/night. The OV was maybe $400/night. I am not aware of many hotels that charge $1800 for a junior suite and let you book it for 14,500 SPGs.

What hotel was this and how many other examples like this can you name? It sounds like you used this for a Category 5 hotel - even a 1BR Deluxe Suite at the Westin in Venice for next July 11-18 (summer is peak season) costs "only" EUR700/night (AAA Rate). For the same dates, a Junior suite at the Meridien Etoile in Paris (cat 5) is EUR507/night (AAA rate). These are rates as of now on the SPG website - and using AAA rates is legitimate given anyone can get a membership for $50...

Moreover, regarding the Meridien example above, a standard room is 12,000 SPs; but the junior suite is 24,000 SPs. 14,500SPs at that hotel get you the "nicer" 25sq meters (275 sq ft) "Executive Room"...

Similarly, at the Westin in Venice a regular room is 12,000 SPs, for 14,500 SPs you just get a better view (partial canal), and the "Deluxe" 375 sq ft 1 Br suite is 24,000 SPs/night...

I'm relatively new to TSing, but have been SPG Gold for over a decade...I have yet to see the type of deals you describe.

I can not speak for the prices, etc if you go look at what's there today...

Anyways, here's a selection of what we've done in the last few years. Where I have the info handy, SPG and cash values are per night. We typically stayed 5 nights in any one location if we did longer trips covering a large area (ie Europe), or as long as 2 weeks if the trip was essentially to a single spot (ie California, Georgia/South Carolina/Florida, Bahamas).

2006, we did southern California:

- St Regis Resort Monarch Beach, Dana Point, 12000SPG, USD445

2007, we did Europe, northern California, and Whistler (at Christmas):

- Le Meridien Etoile, Paris, Club President room, 12500SPG, EUR315
- Le Meridien Beach Plaza, Monte Carlo, Classic City View, 12000SPG, EUR320
- Arabella Sheraton Neuss Schloss, Zurich, Executive room, 12250SPG, ~USD400 (they actually billed in Swiss francs or something I think)
- Le Meridien Vienna, Junior Suite, 11500SPG, EUR605
- Hotel Des Bains, Venice Lido Resort, Deluxe Seaview Suite, 11500SPG, EUR766
- Westin Excelsior, Rome, Junior Suite, 14500SPG, EUR1190
- Westin Whistler, loft suite, 11500SPG

2008, we did Aspen (at Spring Break), and south-eastern USA:

- St Regis Aspen, Junior Suite
- Westin Savannah Harbor Golf Resort & Spa, full suite
- Westin Hilton Head Island Resort & Spa, ocean view room, 10000SPG, USD300
- Walt Disney World Dolphin, full suite

2009, we did the Bahamas:

- Sheraton Nassau Beach Resort, Ocean Breeze Suite, 11500SPG, USD590

1st - every permutation of the value SO-SP conversion has been discussed here - this is nothing new.

As you brought up - WKORV gives you 80K SPs upon conversion - so I will use this as an example. A WKORV 2Bd LO which can be used for 14 nites - so you are giving up 14 nites in a very nice 1Bd and studio at a cost (based on MFs alone ~$2100, and not the loss on investment) for ~$150 per nite. Much nicer than a majority of SPG hotels - not too mention the hidden savings since SVO VOIs have a washer/dryer and a full kitchen. 80K SPs even at a very good exchange rate of 4 cents per SP = $3200 - or 5 nites at a very nice SPG Hotel. You can rent the 2Bd LO for more than that... that alone makes WKORV (and WKORVN, WPORV) a poor SO-SP conversion.

Or one can rent the studio to cover the MFs - and stay in the 1Bd side for 7 nites that is essentially free per nite (or for argumant sake let's say around $30/nite).

Now using 'fuzzy' math approach - SVO/WKORV rents the 2Bd LO for ~$500 per nite (x 7 nites) at a bargain rate of ~$3600, and at a non-bargain price of ~$5200 ($650/nite) - so essentially using 'fuzzy' - that is between 4.5 cents/SP and 6,5 cents/SP.

Of course - one can rent from an Owner for less... this above is just an example and not necessarily accurate, but was used to show a point about 'fuzzy' math.

Another 'fuzzy' math approach is similiar to my recent European trip - stayed 5 nites at the Westin Paris that had a door rate of 750 Euros ($1200 with tax = $7000!!!!) that cost us around 80K SPs - problem is - who in their right mind would actually spend that much - especially when you can get travel deals for about 225 Euros/nite at the Westin Paris.

Now add in the annual increase of MFs - and the SO-SP conversion becomes worse and worse. Or use the calculation for an OF at WKORV - and it also becomes less of a SO-SP conversion value since they have higher rent value both from Owners and SVO/WKORV

Is it nice to have the SO-SP option? No doubt.
Do experienced Tuggers use the SO-SP conversion to the best advatage? Yes (caveat: mainly Platinums with tons of VOIs)
Is it a good value? No way.

Good luck.

The Westin Excelsior was a phenomenal deal - although it's been upgraded to Category 6, so it would now be 23,000 SPs for that room (20K SPs for standard).

I agree that many of your stays can be perceived good value, especially if you were actually prepared to spend those amounts on hotel says... I would have probably settled for Best Westerns The weak dollar also helps your argument with the overseas stays. For most of my stays - especially in the US - I don't feel like I get close to that value when I use SPs. I still use SPs because they are from Amex charges (better value than other loyalty programs), but i would definitely think twice before I converted if I could rent to recover MFs.

The biggest problem with SPs is that Starwood is notorious for doing what they did with the Westin Excelsior. They invented category 6 and 7 hotels and in doing so depreciated the StarPoints substantially. They keep harping one the one hotel in Bali which went from category 4 to 3, and in the meantime change 200 hotels from Category 4 to 5, 5 to 6, or 6 to 7. The St. Regis in NYC used to be 12,000 points - it's 30,000 now. The same with the Prince de Galle in Paris. I don't believe your StarPoints were updated accordingly... Anything that seems like great value (e.g. your Westin Excelsior stay) doesn't last long with Starwood.

With this latest trend, most people think of a premier hotel now as Category 6 or 20,000 SPs/night. With your WKORV conversion, that's 5 nights (4+1 free) for the $2400 in MFs - it's pretty hard to justify even for a nice hotel. For the Westins and Ws that are still Category 5 (12,000 SPs/night) you get 7.5 nights, and you can maybe make it look better by booking a nicer room for slightly more SPs, but it's still over $300/night... that is hard to justify in many cases, especially with today's rock bottom hotel prices. There are exceptions to this and if you can stay in NYC or Vegas for new years Eve on SPs you are definitely getting value.

I should be fair and point out that the trend reversed in 2009 and quite a few hotels were downshifted by a category, but this is likely only temporary. I should also point out that MFs at WKORV were $1500 when you did your travels, so getting those (what were once) category 4 and 5 hotels in Europe was pretty sweet. Do i think it's worth $23,000? - not to me...

Here is a good article on how 80,000 SPs are not what they use to be...

Lastly, I pointed out in the other thread that by buying developer and given retail prices today, having SP conversion cost you $60,000-$80,000 in loss of equity. To make matters worse, a buyer at voluntary resorts (pretty much what Starwood sells today) loses 90%-99% of their equity almost immediately. Is it worth buying WPORV from the developer for $55,000 and having as asset you can sell tomorrow for barely $5000 - all in the name of having Starpoints? This should be part of the cost consideration for any new buyer who may be tempted...

*WoodMFs2Hi said:

The Westin Excelsior was a phenomenal deal - although it's been upgraded to Category 6, so it would now be 23,000 SPs for that room (20K SPs for standard).

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Weren't you DannyM up until a few hours ago???

DeniseM said:

Weren't you DannyM up until a few hours ago???

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Yes- but weren't WKORV MFs $1900 until today?

I'll be happy to change back to DannyM (or even Luv*Wood) when SVO management goes back to being who I thought they were...!

It hurts my head this early in the morning to do complicated "equivalency" equations ... but, here's what I've learned over the years.

When I was young, and traveled somewhat extensively for work and pleasure (but nothing like today), I had hotel points with everyone. I went with the best deal/best location/etc -- and never worried about a loyalty program. I found myself with hotel points everywhere, but never enough in one program to do anything spectacular with them.

As I grew older and wiser, I realized that it made the most sense (for me) to stick with one Hotel brand whenever possible. I chose Hyatt for a host of reasons (generally very nice hotels -- especially the Park Hyatts, generous loyalty program, tons of promotions, small number of points required for killer upgrades, etc.). For example, I took a LONG (2 month) roadtrip this summer. Although I stayed primarily at timeshares, I often needed hotels for one night (either because I never felt like driving more than a few hours per day to get from one place to the next, or because the check-in/check-out days were different). By staying only at Hyatts and using my MasterCard, I racked up tens of thousands of points thanks to a cool little MasterCard promotion.

As far as Starwood points are concerned, I have found the best use for me is "cash plus points." Last week, I had to take a last minute trip to New Orleans to get my dd out of a jam related to expired license plates and neighborhood cops who had decided to pick on her about them. (It was fun ... lots of hours at the DMV ... she had to get a LA driver's license ... I had to sign over the title of the car to her ... re-register it in her name ..... pay lots of extra insurance money to take her off my policy and get her own policy ... and the final fun step was finding out what the he!! a brake tag was and how to get one!). I could have stayed at my d's apartment ... but, you remember what college apartments are like, right? Enough said. The W wanted over $300/night ......... so I used 4000/points per night and paid $60/night instead.

Similar last minute deal last year when the kids had to evaculate Nola because of a hurricane (never came, thank goodness). They call it "hurrication" when that happens and actually look forward to it. Her roommate's father and I got them a week's worth of rooms in Dallas for $60 and points ... making the entire "hurrication" very inexpensive.

Were those good financial deals? I'll leave that to those of you who like to calculate! But, I sure like it when I only have to pay $60 for a quality hotel room --- and since I have no loyalty to the Starwood program in an organized, long-term way, it works for me! I'm hoping to get a bunch of $60 rooms for family/friends traveling to my d's graduation in May -- they're all looking for an excuse to visit New Orleans, and if I can "help them along" with cheap hotel rooms, it will make for a fun, graduation weekend.

.... That's my story of how I like to use Starwood points.

Nobody mentioned the possibilities of getting free upgrades at starwood hotels if you are platinum.

This past summer, I used points, cash and points, and just plain free nights certificates that were given after two paid stays during the summer months to stay at Westins in Italy. Each place, we were upgraded to massive suites that were surely worth $800-900 per night (but I would never have paid that rate), but it was nice to experience the "suite" living. Most of these rooms were almost free to us due to points, cash and points or free night certs.

Having SPG can be valuable currency for example, staying during major holidays as you will not be able to get the timeshare reservation and the regular hotel rooms are through the roof.

sjuhawk_jd said:

Nobody mentioned the possibilities of getting free upgrades at starwood hotels if you are platinum.

This past summer, I used points, cash and points, and just plain free nights certificates that were given after two paid stays during the summer months to stay at Westins in Italy. Each place, we were upgraded to massive suites that were surely worth $800-900 per night (but I would never have paid that rate), but it was nice to experience the "suite" living. Most of these rooms were almost free to us due to points, cash and points or free night certs.

Having SPG can be valuable currency for example, staying during major holidays as you will not be able to get the timeshare reservation and the regular hotel rooms are through the roof.

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We have recently received two suite upgrades on stays. Plus we are flying to Maui and Italy, using our starpoints.

I have been upgraded a few times (Sheraton Petaluma, Westin Napa twice, Park Lane London, Westin Paris) - only not upgraded at the Hotel Pulitzer - and I am only SPG gold. I think our 'upgrade' at the Park Lane in London is hard to beat on any level - is there a surreal level?

I am not saying that the SO-SP conversion value is worthless (never have) and it doesn't have a convienence value - it does. Just not in comparison to other other uses (as stated) unless math is used that puts full 'rack' value in the numerator. Add in the fact that the SO-SP conversion is more valuable as a Platinum then non-Plat (but then again - Platinum is generaly attained at a very high cost - and therefore loss).

As an example - was our Westin Paris room really worth $1100-$1200 a nite? If that is the case then our Park Lane room was worth about $1500-$2000/nite in comparison, and our Hotel Pultizer Room at around $1000 per nite - which means that those 225K SP we got as incentive alone paid for our EOY WPORV and the TS salesperson was right (LOL).

Again - even forgiving the purchase cost and loss for something like WPORV (for example) - the $2100 MFs and the sacrifice of giving up a stay (7 days in the 2bd, or 14 days total) at a fantastic resort is hardly worth 84K SPs (5 nites in a 5-6* SPG hotel room) that is attained upon conversion (even with the add on as a Platinum) - it just isn't unless you put a premium value (as SVO/SPG does) on the SPs that are being used. These SP values have a very large range - the same room can be $200 or $1000/nite depending on the source - that alone can give a 5-fold range to the $/SP value.

...and we still have 225K SPs - and never converted.

i use the staroption to starpoints conversion once a year just to boost my account. i use starpoints all the time. our entire trip to Italy last month was using starpoints. we had lovely upgrades. we use starpoints to stay in NYC over the holidays every year, and we go in to NYC for weekends all the time. i will only use starpoints when the room rate is more than $250 per night. i prefer using cash and points because i am frugal with my starpoints.

starpoints allow me to go to hotels i would NEVER spend the cash on or i just could not afford. we have gone to some amazing resorts. i travel on an average once a month, either using timeshares or starpoints. this whole timeshare, starpoint thing has changed our lives for the better.

We have done some converting (hotel stays in Victoria BC, airfare to Cabo, and hotels for the whole family in Anaheim, to name a few), but plan to do much more when we start travelling to Europe, where there are no Starwood timeshares available. The ability to use the Timeshare to stay in hotels is a great option in Europe, especially as we don't plan on staying in one place for 7 nights in a row - at least not on our first trip. We plan to get a quick tourist view of as many places as we can, then decide which ones we would like to go back to for a deeper look, at which time we will consider depositing with II or using an II GetAway for a more convenient and leisurely stay at a timeshare.

For folks who have succeeded in getting the most bang for their StarPoint buck, especially platinums who can enjoy complimentary upgrades, I want to again repeat that Starwood is running a special promotion from 11/10/09 to 12/31/09 where they are discounting the cost by 20% of purchasing SPs outright.

2.8 cents per SP vs. 3.5 cents normally. Limited to 20k per person per year.

I believe one should expect to pay a premium when one converts to SPG points (or exchanges via II or SVN). Flexibility comes with a "cost" and for some, that "cost" may be worth more than what was loss.

It cracks me up when folks expect equivalent or greater value when flexibility is exercised.

I believe one should expect to pay a premium when one converts to SPG points (or exchanges via II or SVN). Flexibility comes with a "cost" and for some, that "cost" may be worth more than what was loss.

It cracks me up when folks expect equivalent or greater value when flexibility is exercised.

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Re II trading -- for me, it's not so much an expectation as a learned skill. Once you figure it out, it's a no-brainer ... a 5th grader can do it.

Same thing with the one SVN trader I have (i.e., use a lower upfront cost/maint fee resort to get into a higher upfront cost/higher maint fee resort). It's really quite simple and works within Starwood's own stated rules -- no game playing, no loopholes, etc. Do I have an expectation that it will always continue? Not at all, but that's not a reason to stop doing it while I can.

I don't play with SPs, so can't really comment on that one.

Troopers said:

I believe one should expect to pay a premium when one converts to SPG points (or exchanges via II or SVN). Flexibility comes with a "cost" and for some, that "cost" may be worth more than what was loss.

It cracks me up when folks expect equivalent or greater value when flexibility is exercised.

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So you feel that is it equitable for II to treat Starwood owners differently than owners at other resorts, and that Starwood owners should not have the same exchanging rights as say, Marriott owners?

jerseygirl said:

Re II trading -- for me, it's not so much an expectation as a learned skill. Once you figure it out, it's a no-brainer ... a 5th grader can do it.

Same thing with the one SVN trader I have (i.e., use a lower upfront cost/maint fee resort to get into a higher upfront cost/higher maint fee resort). It's really quite simple and works within Starwood's own stated rules -- no game playing, no loopholes, etc. Do I have an expectation that it will always continue? Not at all, but that's not a reason to stop doing it while I can.

I don't play with SPs, so can't really comment on that one.

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It sounds like you have reasonable outlook...that's great. And absolutely, do it while you can...more power to you...just don't cry foul when it doesn't.

There's a whole lot of whine when one doesn't receive equal or greater value...not limited to the Starwood board.

I only whine when Starwood takes away deeded rights, not when they change things that I agreed (through positive consent in the form of a signed agreement) could be changed.

DeniseM said:

So you feel that is it equitable for II to treat Starwood owners differently than owners at other resorts, and that Starwood owners should not have the same exchanging rights as say, Marriott owners?

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Nope......

jerseygirl said:

I only whine when Starwood takes away deeded rights, not when they change things that I agreed (through positive consent in the form of a signed agreement) could be changed.

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And rightly so.