Why to not buy a lock-off

[jerseyfinn]

Originally Posted by davewasbaloo

For selfish reasons, I really dislike lock offs and wish they did not exist. When I go on Interval to Exchange or buy a getaway, there is often listings for the resorts we want. But when we get there, they are glorified hotel rooms from all the danged lock offs. It is really annoying.

Lots of TS companies have gone the lockoff route & one does indeed have to be careful when positing a trade so that you don't trade down for your 2BR resort. If one looks very carefully on Marriott.com, Interval, or in the rental market, you will note that MPB inventory is quite often broken into 1BR & lockoffs because savvy owners are going for more value when they trade/rent ( and so too, Marriott ). It's a consequence of the opportunity to increase value. We tried a trade-back using a platinum MPB week for a summer gold week, and I could never find a full 2BR villa on offer for the weeks we sought & I finally settle for a 1BR.

I think that Marriott is well-intentioned when they go the lockoff route as it does indeed offer additional flexibility if an owner strategizes carefully. How well it functions depends upon the resort, the season, the demographic of owners & how many of them elect to implement the lockoff option. For example, lockoffs work quite well in the Orlando area partly because of the larger aggregate inventory in the region which dilutes the ownership effect. But as I mention above, there are indeed negative consequences when lockoff usage runs higher. Remember, an owner who locks off essentially 'blocks' off one full villa for two weeks -- doing so in large numbers has negative resort inventory availbility consequences which extend beyond the idea of first-come-first-served when reserving your week. High lockoff implementaion creates a dichotomy of ownership in which all owners are not equal in a relative sense as lockoffs "lock out" some owners trying to get their full villa week in. This situation is distinct from the more usual reserve your week early where all owners compete for the resort's entire weekly inventory availibility. Now there's no sleight of hand here, it's just the practical result of what can happen when lockoff usage hits a "tipping point". We never thought too deeply about this when we purchase at Ocean Pointe, & it's only when we expand our ownership to other resorts that we become quite aware of the functional differences between resorts. Then again, TS ownership is about learning as much as you can about the resort where you will purchase, ownership usage & demographics, and how this plays out in real terms.

Before the economic collapse halts all new development in TS, Marriott was trending away from lockoff resorts, or they were implementing lockoffs on a more limited basis. I would assume that part of this decsion was because of logistical issues associated with lockoffs. For example, Playa Andaluza implements lockoffs only in a handful of 3BR villas & consciously creates some 3BRs which are not lockoffs. Oceana Palms is 100% two bedroom units with no lockoffs. I'm not gonna suggest that lockoffs are bad, but you gotta keep your eyes open & figure out how they function at a specific resort. Lots of ways to do TS, but one does indeed have to be careful both pondering resort owenrship & when trying to trade.

Barry

[Dean]

Originally Posted by tashamen

I agree. I don't like staying in them - even in the 1 bedroom or larger side, especially if there is a shared entrance.

It seems a number of companies have gone to the large 1 BR and small 1 BR combo. Bluegreen has done that for a number of their resorts. It is important to know because you want to get the larger 1 BR and not inadvertently end up in the smaller 1 BR if at all possible. We had this issue exchanging for a LV resort. Fortunately it was possible to tell which was which by the occupancy, 4/4 vs 4/2.

[Cobra1950]

We own both lock off (Summittwatch) and non lock off (Legends Edge). For us no question lockoff is a better value overall especially given the rising maintenance fees currently and coming in next few years.
We have been told in several presentations lately that Marriott will no longer produce new developments with lockoffs, which given the deterioration in points value over last few years is a pretty good sign that this is an another area they are cutting costs in, which in reverse logic is probably increased value for the resale buyer in existing Marriott developments.

[jerseyfinn]

Originally Posted by Cobra1950

We own both lock off (Summittwatch) and non lock off (Legends Edge). For us no question lockoff is a better value overall especially given the rising maintenance fees currently and coming in next few years.

Excellent point. Although I have spoken here about the (potential) downside of lockoffs from the perspective of an owner's resort usage/availibility, I too agree that lockoffs in general hold utility and value for those who own at such resorts. Although we will divest ourselves of our Ocean Pointe weeks, we intend to keep one week purely because of the lockoff. We're still some many years from retirement, but our ultimate goal will be splitting the unit & depositing both halves while going 'shopping' in the 60 day window to see what sort of larger unit/destination we can grab at the last moment. As Cobra notes, one can extend the value of their MFs by getting two-for-one weeks.

That said, I think that Marriott makes a good move eschewing lockoffs in the future ( although at the moment, all new construction is of course presently on hold as MVC concentrates upon moving existing inventory in this quagmire economy ). It creates a more uniform product which makes managing inventory a straight forward process while affording every owner a good shot at enjoying their ownership week without encountering the extenuating circumstances created by high lockoff usage in certain seasons. Given what one pays for a developer week, it's very necessary for MVC to assure a stable & reliable ownership experience.

Barry

[Dean]

Originally Posted by Cobra1950

We own both lock off (Summittwatch) and non lock off (Legends Edge). For us no question lockoff is a better value overall especially given the rising maintenance fees currently and coming in next few years.
We have been told in several presentations lately that Marriott will no longer produce new developments with lockoffs, which given the deterioration in points value over last few years is a pretty good sign that this is an another area they are cutting costs in, which in reverse logic is probably increased value for the resale buyer in existing Marriott developments.

I'm not sure lockoff's are out, salespeople tend to say that when trying to sell non lockoff's. I'd be willing to bet we've not seen the last resort developed as lockoff's. I'd be really surprised if Cancun doesn't have lockoff's if it proceeds. Same for the possible next resort on Maui if it happens as well.

[dioxide45]

Originally Posted by Dean

I'm not sure lockoff's are out, salespeople tend to say that when trying to sell non lockoff's. I'd be willing to bet we've not seen the last resort developed as lockoff's. I'd be really surprised if Cancun doesn't have lockoff's if it proceeds. Same for the possible next resort on Maui if it happens as well.

You would also be surprised how much they mention the lack of future lock offs when selling lock off units. At our last MGV tour they were touting no future lock offs and what a great time to make sure you get one now at MGV or Harbour Lake while they were still available. Of course now Lakeshore Reserve is available with lock offs.

[billymach4]

Originally Posted by Bill4728

Most Tuggers will say buy at a resort that has lock-off so you can get 2 deposits for the price of one TS purchase. BUT there is a good reason to own at resorts which don't have lock-offs. That would be "owner" preferences in room assignment.

Marriott assigns the best rooms based on a simple method:

Multiple week owners staying during their season
Single week owners staying during their season
Owners trading in (season doesn't matter)
Marriott Owners at other marriott resorts trading in
Non Marriott owners trading in

So we bought at NCV so when we trade in we get the best room assignments of those people who are trading into the resort. Yes I'd like to be able to lock-off but since we stay at NCV 2 times a year (or more) getting the better room assignments are important to us.

Edited to add: This doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with lock-off units, just sometimes there are good reasons to buy a unit even if it isn't a lock-off.

Bill,

Your point about the non LO is well taken. However I just can't live without my Lock-offs.

Better than sliced bread!

[Dean]

Originally Posted by dioxide45

You would also be surprised how much they mention the lack of future lock offs when selling lock off units. At our last MGV tour they were touting no future lock offs and what a great time to make sure you get one now at MGV or Harbour Lake while they were still available. Of course now Lakeshore Reserve is available with lock offs.

I'm sure. I can imagine several sales angles for a resort with and without l/o units on the premise there will be no future l/o. However, we've been hearing that tune for a number of years now but many of the newest resorts have had lockoff's that were not in an area where l/o were unlikely anyway (HH, MB). I see no reason for them to back off l/o units because it's a good sales angle and the extra cost is mild compared to the sales price. But I'm sure it'll vary with the specifics of the resort and local factors.

[Superchief]

[quote=jerseyfinn;814825] Although we will divest ourselves of our Ocean Pointe weeks,

Barry,
I am curious regarding why you plan to divest yourself of your Ocean Pointe weeks. We really enjoy this resort and the area and have therefore purchasesd a unit at Oceana Palms. However, we usually visit in May or Oct/Nov for good weather and fewer crowds.

[jerseyfinn]

I am curious regarding why you plan to divest yourself of your Ocean Pointe weeks.

Thanks very much for your question Superchief.

Ocean Pointe is the first MVC resort we purchase & it remains a special destination to us. For us, the beach is absolutely superb & we love the expansive, comfortable 20+ acre campus. And it is all of a 2 1/2 plane ride from PHL -- [TS 101: purchase where you will visit each year ].

Time & the addition of weeks at Playa Andaluza & Marbella resorts gives us a larger portfolio & this combined with other MVC travels slowly confers insights that we do not initally possess when we first enter the MVC universe. We slowly become aware of the "lockoff paradigm" at Ocean Pointe during platinum season. It takes a few years to realize the negative effects it can have for some owners. Likewise, there's a few other things we notice, but these are those subjective things which fall into the realm of aesthetics ( which of course are not worth arguing about ). It was never a make-or-break sort of issue as much as it was a practical observation about how the resort functions & we simply carry this awareness in the back of our minds as we learn to posit/measure the attributes of each MVC resort -- usually while we are lolling around enjoying ourselves at each resort.

Ownership is a very subjective thing, & for us, we become very aware of the top-tier look & feel of those Spanish MVC resorts inside and out as well as the region in general ( we got the same impression when we pass through KoOlina during a non-TS Hawaii visit ). We were happy with our portfolio of MPB, MUZ & MMB, but felt that our ownership experience was more balanced at those Spain resorts than at MPB. So we had already begun to play with the idea of selling off a couple of our MPB weeks. Entirely subjective stuff .

Then came Oceana Palms with the new upscale botique concept. It jumps right out at us as the elegance of design has the same appeal/flavor of those Spanish resorts -- and it is all of 1/2 mile up the same exact beach from Ocean Pointe. So our doubts/disatisfaction with how the lockoff frenzy at Ocean Pointe muddles up planning a visit there has a solution . . . move up the beach to MVO & play the game straight up, which for us is more in keeping with what we want out of TS.

So I'm not arguing that one resort is better than the other, but I do assert that owners have to look carefully at any resort or region & figure out what floats your boat. If not for our Spain ownership, we would not have realized how assiduosly elegant some of the MVC resorts are ( & how much this attribute appeals to us ). We still enjoy our Ocean Pointe visits, but we also know that MVC has all sorts of alternatives to offer discriminating buyers. For some, it's the versatality of lockoffs. For others, it's the aesthetics of destination & resort. I guess it goes back to a comment above where I say that Marriott can for many, be a 'one-size-fits-all' proposition.

So much for those who argue that TS as we know it has died with this faltering economy.

Barry

[Dean]

Originally Posted by jerseyfinn

Thanks very much for your question Superchief.

Ocean Pointe is the first MVC resort we purchase & it remains a special destination to us. For us, the beach is absolutely superb & we love the expansive, comfortable 20+ acre campus. And it is all of a 2 1/2 plane ride from PHL -- [TS 101: purchase where you will visit each year ].

Time & the addition of weeks at Playa Andaluza & Marbella resorts gives us a larger portfolio & this combined with other MVC travels slowly confers insights that we do not initally possess when we first enter the MVC universe. We slowly become aware of the "lockoff paradigm" at Ocean Pointe during platinum season. It takes a few years to realize the negative effects it can have for some owners. Likewise, there's a few other things we notice, but these are those subjective things which fall into the realm of aesthetics ( which of course are not worth arguing about ). It was never a make-or-break sort of issue as much as it was a practical observation about how the resort functions & we simply carry this awareness in the back of our minds as we learn to posit/measure the attributes of each MVC resort -- usually while we are lolling around enjoying ourselves at each resort.

Ownership is a very subjective thing, & for us, we become very aware of the top-tier look & feel of those Spanish MVC resorts inside and out as well as the region in general ( we got the same impression when we pass through KoOlina during a non-TS Hawaii visit ). We were happy with our portfolio of MPB, MUZ & MMB, but felt that our ownership experience was more balanced at those Spain resorts than at MPB. So we had already begun to play with the idea of selling off a couple of our MPB weeks. Entirely subjective stuff .

Then came Oceana Palms with the new upscale botique concept. It jumps right out at us as the elegance of design has the same appeal/flavor of those Spanish resorts -- and it is all of 1/2 mile up the same exact beach from Ocean Pointe. So our doubts/disatisfaction with how the lockoff frenzy at Ocean Pointe muddles up planning a visit there has a solution . . . move up the beach to MVO & play the game straight up, which for us is more in keeping with what we want out of TS.

So I'm not arguing that one resort is better than the other, but I do assert that owners have to look carefully at any resort or region & figure out what floats your boat. If not for our Spain ownership, we would not have realized how assiduosly elegant some of the MVC resorts are ( & how much this attribute appeals to us ). We still enjoy our Ocean Pointe visits, but we also know that MVC has all sorts of alternatives to offer discriminating buyers. For some, it's the versatality of lockoffs. For others, it's the aesthetics of destination & resort. I guess it goes back to a comment above where I say that Marriott can for many, be a 'one-size-fits-all' proposition.

So much for those who argue that TS as we know it has died with this faltering economy.

Barry

So you sold Ocean Pointe and bought Oceana Palms? As you say, personal choice of course. Did you consider alternate option including reserving what you had and trying a search first for the other resort for the same week? What was your cost to make such a transition? By that I mean the difference in cash you had to shell out per week (new purchase price minus sale price) if you don't mind sharing?

[Superchief]

Barry,
Thank you for your insightful comments. Since we own silver season and usually visit Ocean Point in May or early November, we have not encountered the problems regarding lock-off impacted villa assignments. I am anxious to visit the Spain resorts at some point in the future, but the hassles (and cost) of international travel have caused us to enjoy our vacations in the US. I totally agree that timeshares offer a variety of values that fit the varying needs of owners.

We purchased Ocean Pointe to enjoy annual beach vacations during the off season, with the flexibility of staying back to back weeks after retiring, or reserving the studio for a different week for our daughters (who can't always travel when we do). We seldom use it for trade. We purchased a Gold week at Oceana Palms because we like the area and appreciate the upgrades and facilities. Since we are located in the center of the country, we also own at Newport Coast for West coast 'beach' experience, Mountainside(EOY) for summer in the mountains, Canyon Villas (EOY) for desert and JW resort access, and have kept Royal Palms for occasional trips, exchange, or points.

Since we will likely always live in the lower cost Midwest or Southeast areas, we plan to use our timeshares more when we retire. The lock-offs in OP, CV, and MS will allow us to stay two weeks per visit.

Note: Did you receive your 2010 MF for Oceana Palms? It is much higher than I recall being presented when I purchased, and the $330 property tax is outlandish. My primary concern with owning on Singer Island is the incompetence of the local government.