2010 Maintenance Fee Thread

[LisaRex]

Originally Posted by YYJMSP

If I'd paid for those same rooms using Starwood's web site at the same time I booked the room with the SPG points, I would have paid approx. $45,000 -- the 29 days in Europe in mostly suites gave me over $23,000 of value alone. I'm a little OCD that way -- I like to keep track of how much I "saved".

You can't just use the MFs as a point of comparison without including your initial purchase price.

[DanCali]

Originally Posted by YYJMSP

Our WKORV and WKORVN units both give 148,100 SO = 80,000 SPG.

The 4 years 2006-2009, I converted WKORV (annual) and WKORVN (even years) for a total of 480,000 SPG points. Someone can add up the MFs, but let's say for the sake of discussion that they're somewhere around $12,000 for that period.

I used those SPG points to get over 100 days of holidays staying in Starwood-branded hotels for a month in Europe, multiple 2 week trips along both coasts of the USA, a couple of winter weeks in Whistler and Aspen, 2 weeks in the Bahamas, etc, and dozens of short weekend getaways.

If I'd paid for those same rooms using Starwood's web site at the same time I booked the room with the SPG points, I would have paid approx. $45,000 -- the 29 days in Europe in mostly suites gave me over $23,000 of value alone. I'm a little OCD that way -- I like to keep track of how much I "saved".

I am not suggesting that this is by any means a typical expected return on the MFs, but for me, this specific type of use was part of my calculations when I decided to buy in to SVN instead of one of the other timeshare systems that we'd been introduced to over the few years previous...

I agree that this is not the right thread, but it would be wrong to leave this unanswered and have someone get the impression that 480,000 SP are worth $45,000... I can't help myself but to respond!

I have many problems with the calculations above. For example 29 nights in hotels are worth $23,000? And you make it sound like you booked an $800/night suite for 10,000 SPs/day? No way... I doubt you used SPs to book suites outright and if you got the suite upgrade for being SPG Gold, how much was the standard room - $250? (Anyone can get SPG Gold for $450 a year through Amex). Then value it at whatever you booked, not whatever you stayed in...

Regardless of all this, the one big thing missing from that calculation is the loss of equity value which will never make a developer purchase worth the SPs. You only get SP conversion if you buy from the developer. Those 1.5 weeks probably cost $75,000 to $100,000, depending when they were purchased. Today (especially with the officially updated MFs) they are worth $15,000-$20,000 on the resale market. This is an additional cost of $60,000-$80,000, whether you intend to sell or not... doesn't seem like it was worth it after all.

So even if 480,000 SP are worth $45,000... it's still a bad deal!

(and I omitted the opportunity cost of the upfront investment, which could have been invested in 3%-5% risk free return over the past few years...)

[YYJMSP]

Last comment on the topic of SO-SPG, as I can see that this is a subject that people have clear and strong opinions on, and varied personal experiences with, and I'm not looking to convert anyone to my way of thinking, etc.

If someone really wants to continue the discussion, please feel free to start another thread, as it's been pointed out that this is pretty much off-topic -- my original post was the WKORV 2010 MFs showing up on MSC.

Originally Posted by LisaRex

You can't just use the MFs as a point of comparison without including your initial purchase price.

In my purchase decisions, I amortized the up-front capital cost over 15 years (assuming it had no market value at the end of that time) and added in the yearly MFs (assuming 10% yearly increase on those -- yes, I expected after 15 years to pay quadruple what I'm paying now).

My expected annual vacation costs had to be more than that -- i.e. there had to be "excess value" of the SPG points over the MFs. Essentially, I was looking to "prepay" the accomodations for my holidays for the next 15 years.

If I can continue to get a yearly value of ~3x the MFs paid for the next few years, I expect that I'll "recover" my initial investment roughly on time. If the units have some residual value, great, but that's a bonus from my way of thinking.

Once again, what works for me in terms of deciding on and using SVN for my particular vacation pattern doesn't necessarily work for anyone else.

[YYJMSP]

I've started a new thread to continue this discussion for those who wish to...

[YYJMSP]

Looks like it's official, since it now shows a due date:

Due Date 01/04/2010

Current Year Charges
Maintenance Fee(s) $ 3,076.69
Tax - If Applicable $ 0.00
Membership Fee - If Applicable $ 113.53
Other* $ 0.00
Interest $ 0.00
Late Fees $ 0.00
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.** $ 5.00
Sub-Total
Current Year Charges $ 3,195.22
Less Payments*** $ 0.00
Total Due $ 3,195.22
Projected Fees for Next Year $ 3,190.22

[LisaRex]

Originally Posted by YYJMSP

Looks like it's official, since it now shows a due date: Due Date 01/04/2010 Projected Fees for Next Year $ 3,190.22

Tell me this is for a 2 bdrm deluxe.

[DavidnRobin]

Originally Posted by LisaRex

Tell me this is for a 2 bdrm deluxe.

It is for a 2Bd Dlx - 25.1% increase over last year - and a 90% jump since 2005 - this %increase will apply to all WKORV VOIs.

[dss]

This is beyond the pale. We really need to get organized and let SVO know this is not a sustainable business for anyone. What are the next steps?

[dss]

The more I think about this, the more upset I get. We're paying $400 a night in maintenance fees for a unit without even basic housekeeping? This is really outrageous.

[jerseygirl]

Not to pour salt in the Hawaii owners' wounds (we're all in the same boat), but have you seen this post from the Hilton board:

We just got our statement in the mail for Kings Land. (Two Bedroom Platinum) **Increase of $61.51 per unit**

2010 Club Dues: $ 99.00
2010 Hawaii GE Tax: $ 44.05
2010 Operating Fee: $954.36
2010 Reserve Fee: $103.09
2010 Real Estate Taxes: $ 53.34
2010 ARDA Fee: $ 3.00

Total: $1,256.84

For comparison :

2009 Club Dues: $ 99.00
2009 Hawaii GE Tax: $ 42.20
2009 Operating Fee: $920.54
2009 Reserve Fee: $ 92.47
2009 Real Estate Taxes: $ 38.12
2009 ARDA Fee: $ 3.00

Total: $1,195.33

Kings' Land is on the Big Island, not Maui ... but, still, that's a HUGE difference. We haven't used our Hilton points in Hawaii yet, so I have no direct experience with the Hawaii Resorts. But, the HGVC resorts we have visited (all 3 in Vegas, International Drive in Orlando, Valdoro in Breckenridge and a couple of the Florida affiliates) have been pretty close to "on par" with most Starwoods (not the "tippy top" Starwoods, but equal to most). My perception (maybe not correct) is that the accommodations at the actual HGVC club resorts are a little nicer that those at the affiliates, but the affiliates have locations that can't be beat.

Next year, we're staying in a 2-BR oceanfront (yeah!) in the Lagoon Tower at HGVC in Waikiki, and a 2-BR at the Waikoloa (no view, but reportedly a great resort) on the Big Island. I'll be able to give more valid comparisons after that trip.

[Weez]

Didnt realize this thread was here and just posted this in the Tax increse thread but..........

Well got my invoice in todays mail.

New MF for WKORV is $2,351.36 for 2BR lockoff Annual

Master Association Assessment 160.36
Apartment Ownership Assessment 410.93
Vacation Ownership Assessment 1661.54
SVN Fee 113.53
ARDA-ROC-Pac Contribution 5.00

Ugghhhhhh

[ciscogizmo1]

Nevermind... I slept on it...

[LisaRex]

Originally Posted by YYJMSP

2BR LO unit at WKORV:
Total Due $ 3,190.22

Which means that all WKORV, Harborside and St. John owners can purchase StarPoints outright on the Starwood website from 11/10 to 12/31/09 for LESS than they'll give you for converting. This must make the folks who bought from the developer even MORE happy that they paid all that extra money for that awesome perk.

Cost of buying 80,000 SPs on the Starwood website every day: $2800.
Cost of buying 80,000 SPs from 11/10-12/31/09 (during the 20% off sale): $2240

(Of course, you are still limited to 40k SPs per year, per couple, if you buy them outright. Does that make anyone feel better?)

Oh, what fun it must be to be a Starwood salesman today!

[jerseygirl]

[Moved as requested] Denise -- I meant to post this on the maintenance fee thread. I don't want to get in trouble for posting twice. Can you move it or should I copy it over to that thread and delete this post?

David -- I found the following clause in the Bay Vista docs (bold added by me):

(b) Rental. Provided that the Association has properly and timely given notice to notice to a delinquent Owner pursuant to the Declaration and to any affiliated exchange program, the Association is permitted to rent a delinquent Owner’s Vacation Period and any appurtenant use rights and apply the proceeds of such rental, net of any rental commissions, cleaning charges, travel agent commissions, or any other commercially reasonable charges reasonably and usually incurred by the Association in securing rentals, to the delinquent Owner’s account. The notice of intent to rent must be given at at least thirty (30) days prior to the first day of the Owner’s Vacation Period, and must be delivered to the Owner in the manner required for notices under the Declaration. The notice of intent to rent, which may be included in the notice required by the Declaration, must state in conspicuous type that: (i) the Association’s efforts to secure a rental will not commence on a date earlier than ten (10) days after the date of the notice of intent to rent; (ii) unless the Owner satisfies the delinquency in full, or unless the Owner produces satisfactory evidence that the delinquency does not exist pursuant to the Declaration, the Owner will be bound by the terms of any rental contract entered into by the Association with respect to the Owner’s Vacation Ownership Interest or appurtenant use rights; and, (iii) the Owner will remain liable for any difference between the amount of the delinquency and the net amount produced by the rental contract and applied against the delinquency pursuant to the Declaration, and the Association shall not be required to provide any further notice to the Owner regarding any residual delinquency pursuant to the Declaration. The Association is not required to: (i) solicit rentals for every or any delinquent Owner’s Vacation Period; (ii) rent the rights associated with the entire Vacation Period; or (iii) obtain the highest nightly rental rate available or any particular rental rate. However, the Association must use reasonable efforts to secure a rental that is commensurate with other rentals of similar Vacation Periods.

Whether they're doing this or not is a different issue. I also don't know if the language is the same in all the resort docs, but I would bet there's something similar in all of them.

The rental rates probably wouldn't totally offset the delinquencies at some of the resorts (e.g., SVR, which would have to compete with RCI's ridiculous rental rates, as published by Nodge from time-to-time). But, I would think a disciplined rental program would go along way toward reducing the delinquencies at WKORV/N, WPORV, WSJ, HRA, etc.

As owners, we should be demanding to see a detailed plan for renting delinquent owners' weeks. As I've stated before, I would love to see an "adopt a week" plan at WSJ (and HRA). I'm sure skiers would love to see the same at the ski resorts, etc. But I'm concerned that the last sentence in the above clause may mandate that SVO attempt to obtain a commercial rate. If they're successful at doing so, fine. But, if not (especially if they're waiting until the 30-day mark to put something up for rental and reducing the proceeds by daily cleaning fees and high commissions), I really wish they'd publish available "discounted rentals to cover delinquencies" to other owners. They could use mystarcentral, for example. It would be a "win win" for all non-delinquent owners (i.e., discounted rental rates and reduced maintenance fees due to not being required to cover the shortfalls caused by delinquent owners). It also would be prudent for owners to insist that the "rental commissions" mentioned in the clause are reasonable under an "owner rental" program.

I realize this isn't a simple process, e.g., maintenance fees are due on Jan 1. What do you do when a January owner doesn't pay? Drastic times call for drastic measures. With proper notice (e.g., 2011 use year), I would not be opposed to a rolling due date (e.g., maintenance fees for fixed week owners are due 6-months in advance of the use date to allow for timely notifications and rentals if unpaid). I haven't had enough coffee to figure out how to deal with floating weeks ... but something needs to be done. We can all sit back and hope the economy improves and delinquencies disappear, or we can be proactive in protecting our interests.

[jerseygirl]

80,000?

I think my WSJ 3-BR pool villa gets me 25000 SPs or something like that. Sometimes, Starwood is just plain silly.

[chakemco]

Has anyone initiated a class action suit against SVO? I bought less that 5 years ago and my maintenance fees have increased from $1200 to $2400 for a 2BR lock-off. SVO sites increases in Maui tax rules that see the vacation units as individual condominiums.
Full time residents who own a single family residence pay a paltry $500.00 PER YEAR for a home valued at $500,000.00

So why is it we who spend 1 to 3 weeks per year on the island are getting shafted with these outrageous maintenance fees?

If anyone has started a class action suit, please post the name of the attorney to contact so I can add my name to the list.

[j4sharks]

I spoke with a couple of well known class action firms, and after they reviewed the governing documents they came to the conclusion that Starwood gives itself pretty unfettered discretion to jack up MF's as they wish. Is it lopsided? Of course. But it's within the contractual rights they get under the agreements. Now perhaps another lawyer would be willing to joust at this windmill, but the lawyer needs to see some $$ coming from the fight, or they have no interest in proceeding.

Another option would be for 1,000 owners to each kick in $100, and then we hire a good lawyer to at least start a lawsuit and initiate discovery. $100K does not get you too far, but perhaps a serious threat to Starwood could bring about some fruitful negotiation. Doubtful, since Starwood makes a lot of $$ from the status quo, so they have every incentive to fight, fight, fight.

[DanCali]

Originally Posted by jerseygirl

[color="Red"][b]
[i](b) Rental. Provided that the Association has properly and timely given notice to notice to a delinquent Owner pursuant to the Declaration and to any affiliated exchange program, the Association is permitted to rent a delinquent Owner’s Vacation Period and any appurtenant use rights and apply the proceeds of such rental, net of any rental commissions, cleaning charges, travel agent commissions, or any other commercially reasonable charges reasonably and usually incurred by the Association in securing rentals, to the delinquent Owner’s account.

The rental rates probably wouldn't totally offset the delinquencies at some of the resorts (e.g., SVR, which would have to compete with RCI's ridiculous rental rates, as published by Nodge from time-to-time). But, I would think a disciplined rental program would go along way toward reducing the delinquencies at WKORV/N, WPORV, WSJ, HRA, etc.

My guess is that this is actually worse than we suspect. When Starwood rents a Villa I believe the renter get daily housekeeping. I also believe "standard" rental commissions are 50% - I heard this is more or less what Starwood used to charge when they rented for owners, a program that has been discontinued. So even if Starwood rents a 2BR WKORV $3500 per week ($500/night), the HOA would have $1750 available from which you need to deduct 7 housekeeping charges for a 2BR Villa (pocketed by Starwood too), which can easily be charged at $200/day by Starwood for all we know (it is a 1400 sq condo - and why not charge as much as they can.... they keep the money), so by the time they deduct "travel agent commissions, or any other commercially reasonable charges" the HOA get literally nothing.

Of course allowing other owners to rent delinquent villas would be better for us, but this would be a "win-lose" proposition, with Starwood on the losing end since they would not get inflated rental commissions and housekeeping charges. That is why they won't go along with it even though it makes perfect sense....

[grgs]

Maintenance Fee(s) $ 691.23 (note: MSC also includes SA of $523.66 here)
Tax - If Applicable $ 138.83
Membership Fee - If Applicable $ 0.00
Other* $ 0.00
Interest $ 0.00
Late Fees $ 0.00
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.** $ 5.00
Sub-Total
Current Year Charges $ 835.06 (or $ 830.06 w/o ARDA)

2009 mf were approx. $ 768.36 ($ 667.38 MF + $ 100.98 tax)

8.68% increase over '09; however, the accompanying newsletter states it's a 3.6% increase. They only looked at the mf, though, and didn't include the increase in property taxes. The 2010 taxes are only an estimate, however. Given the almost $40 increase from 2009, I'm wondering if this is a way to get an interest free loan? Or, has Florida also significantly increase property taxes on timeshare owners lately?

Glorian

[DanCali]

Originally Posted by j4sharks

I spoke with a couple of well known class action firms, and after they reviewed the governing documents they came to the conclusion that Starwood gives itself pretty unfettered discretion to jack up MF's as they wish. Is it lopsided? Of course. But it's within the contractual rights they get under the agreements. Now perhaps another lawyer would be willing to joust at this windmill, but the lawyer needs to see some $$ coming from the fight, or they have no interest in proceeding.

Another option would be for 1,000 owners to each kick in $100, and then we hire a good lawyer to at least start a lawsuit and initiate discovery. $100K does not get you too far, but perhaps a serious threat to Starwood could bring about some fruitful negotiation. Doubtful, since Starwood makes a lot of $$ from the status quo, so they have every incentive to fight, fight, fight.

Organizing 1000 owners is near impossible since Starwood controls the owner list. They make it extremely difficult to organize... I agree that a discovery process would be very interesting and may reveal much more about Starwood's long terms plans for owners. However, if we had a good case there would have been plenty of law firms jumping to do this on a contingency basis (lawyers are the first to get paid in class action suits when they settle) - and that doesn't seem to be the case.

Starwood is treating this like any capitalist corporation. The abuse of owners will stop only when the cost to Stawod is greater than their benefit of ripping us off. I think 1000 owners picketing outside 9002 San Marco Court in Orlando for a few days may attract enough media attention and damage their reputation enough for them to even consider changing their behavior Otherwise, I fear that any written communication is likely to get generic responses and they will continue to abuse their management privilege.

Suppose 80% of owners are actually willing to forego SVN privileges and lobby for a new management company (needs 50% vote). With the current setup and lack of ability to communicate there is just no way to organize such a vote.

Of course the easy way out is to just take the loss and cash out... I think we'll see many units coming on the market in the coming days/weeks.

[DavidnRobin]

I just saw this..
wow jerseygirl - interesting.
I will respond to this once I can read fully - and related topic.

[Tiggerman369]

Yes, in my opinion (imo) the WKOVR is really overpriced on its maintenance fees, and imo undoubtedly hiding the flow of money to Starwood based on their accounting practice/descriptions. But the only way we're going to change that is to assemble a true proxy fight to oust the existing Board, and put in a Board that is interested in controlling the Starwood fees, the maintenance fees, and getting the best value for a high end product at WKOVR.

Starwood set this up with a Board that had shared interests in keeping Starwood. Starwood needs to be ousted, a new Board elected, contracts rewritten to be owner friendly for future voting (online, from afar, with registration similar to corporate elections voting) and then rebid the management contracts (Starwood, Marriott, others..) Anything short of this will likely produce very marginal results. Starwood has a lock on the voting today (the price increases confirm this), so this year's Board of Directors meeting is already lost, methinks. Let's target next years BOD meeting for a true revolution!


If you're interested is joining a proxy fight to take back control for the owners, email me at tiggerman369@gmail.com. We'll need thousands of votes, but we can do it. Let's plan a strategy, and get it done.

[DeniseM]

Hi Jeff, and welcome to TUG!

Since you are new here, would you mind introducing yourself - Thanks!

Hi, I'm new here!

Thanks,
Denise

[Tiggerman369]

Sure. My name is Jeff Nelson, I'm 54 yrs young. I live in Seattle, own 2 weeks (fixed weeks 51 and 52) at Maui WKORV. I retired from the commercial real estate building & leasing and facilities management field, five years ago.

While these fees won't kill me, I can see we're all being worked over by Starwood for maximum revenue. No good management company would allow this escalation rate unless they feel untouchable, in my opinion.

Clearly they have the votes today, because nobody shows up for the meetings. However, if we arrange even 10% of the ownership to provide proxies to a few folks that are true Owner representatives, we can change that.

Let's do. I'm willing to provide my proxy to a god representative, or lead and attend next year, whichever is appropriate. We should have 4-6 individuals represent the Owners, give each an equal number of proxies so that an individual or two can't submarine the effort should there be infiltration. This will also allow the effort to survive should some folks sell their interest.

Just my thoughts, Jeff

[DeniseM]

Hi Jeff - The problem is that Starwood makes it very difficult for anyone to get on the BOD because they actually hand pick the candidates that they will allow to run. There is never a real election, because they paper screen the applications and then choose the number of people they need to fill the slots and those are the only people on the ballot.

I have been to the annual meeting at WKORV and it was a joke. None of the BOD's were there, they all attended by phone, and Starwood rushed through the agenda as quickly as possible, obviously only going through the motions to fulfill the requirements of the law. Owner questions were brushed off as quickly as possible, and they did not accept motions from the floor.

I admire your enthusiasm, and I'm glad you're joining our team, but even if you had the proxie's for every Starwood owner on the face of the earth, you would only be able to use them to vote for Starwood's hand selected candidates.

On Oct. 19th I requested the Bio's and contact info. for the current WKORV BOD's on mystarcentral.com and received a reply that I would receive it is 7-10 business days - I still haven't gotten it!

Again - Welcome to TUG! - If you click on the link I posted above, you will find a recent thread where newbies and regulars introduced themselves.