Newbie

[Joss]

Shouldn't it be illegal for Westgate not to tell buyers upfront about a rescinding period? My husband and I weren't told and we left 1 day after we signed up. The closing officer said to make sure this is what we wanted because once we signed we were committed. We didn't know it was on the cd included in our case and so it was too late to rescind. This sort of tactic is unfair!

[Stricky]

Most TS sales people lie. Sorry.

[djs]

It unfortunately it now becomes a case of "he said, she said" and somewhere in the documents you signed, your rights to rescind are most likely clearly spelled out. They probably also told you that you could exchange your 1-B unit (if that's what you purchased) for a 2B in Hawaii because everyone wants to go to Orlando. Another flat-out lie except that the word "could" does not mean that you "will be able to".

If you bought in FL, you have 10 days to rescind; as long as your letter is postmarked within that timeframe you will be OK. Sounds like you've found the language in your docs and are past the rescission period but if you aren't there is still hope. Many major cities have post offices that are open on weekends (including Sundays) it would be WELL worth your time to travel to one of those post offices to mail your letter if you are pushing against the deadline (if Monday is your deadline, then don't worry about finding someplace tomorrow).

At this point you probably would prefer not to own at Westgate, but if you still wanted to you could find a unit on eBay for $1 max.

All that said, if you are in fact the proud owner of a Westgate TS, please take time to search around here and find a way to enjoy what you've purchased. At the very least you should be able to use it for 1-week a year (or EOY if that's what you purchased) for a vacation. Just be prepared as they will constantly try to "upsell" you by offering you special deals that will only be available the day they offer them to you.

A few years back I exchanged into a Westgate TS in Orlando and aside from them trying to sell me an additional unit the vacation was quite enjoyable....we did have a slight run-in with security having to call our unit but that was probably more due to a rather loud drunken off-color conversation a few of us were having.

[theo]

Originally Posted by Joss

Shouldn't it be illegal for Westgate not to tell buyers upfront about a rescinding period? My husband and I weren't told and we left 1 day after we signed up. The closing officer said to make sure this is what we wanted because once we signed we were committed. We didn't know it was on the cd included in our case and so it was too late to rescind. This sort of tactic is unfair!

In the U.S., the right to cancel (rescind) a timeshare purchase from a developer is a right which is provided by state law. Westgate (or any other developer) does not "choose to provide" this option as some sort of act of kindness and neither Westgate nor any other developer can ever avoid (or ever override) the laws' existence. It's the law. Rescission time periods vary among different states (from as few as 3 days to as many as 15 days (an unusually long example --- in Alaska only). It is also a legal requirement that your right of cancellation be made clearly known to to you within the purchase / contract package.

The new twist I see here which I have never encountered before (...and it's certainly no surprise that it should first be introduced by the likes of Westgate ) is that your "notice of right of rescission" (...if I understand your post correctly and if it is accurately stated...) was apparently provided to you on a CD, separate from the purchase contract documents. While I don't personally claim to know the legality of this particular form of "notice", I would certainly be inclined to question the legality of that particular avenue of "separate, electronic notice" and whether it even fulfills the legal requirements of proper notification of your right of rescission. It seems to me that, logically, the "notice of right of recission" should be provided on paper, in writing within the very same document which you sign to effect the puirchase. Or maybe Westgate somehow believes (perhaps incorrectly) that only computer users are actually entitled to see the notification of their rights of rescission, when (...or if) they later choose to view their CD at home, after purchasing?

It's your call and it's your purchase, but if you want to look into escaping this purchase, I'd certainly be inclined to at least "raise some ruckus" with Westgate on this point. Of course, if the right of rescission notification is also provided in writing within the signed purchase contract document itself, you won't have much of a case ---"didn't read it" is a distinctly different situation from "wasn't provided it"....

[timeos2]

Originally Posted by theo

The new twist I see here which I have never encountered before (...and it's certainly no surprise that it should first be introduced by the likes of Westgate ) is that your "notice of right of rescission" (...if I understand your post correctly and if it is accurately stated...) was apparently provided to you on a CD, separate from the purchase contract documents.

For at least a year now new suckers, er, buyers of Wastegate have been reporting that the rescind information is supplied on a cd rather than in written form. If it helps to hide things or make them tougher, legal or not, you can be assured Wastegate will use it against buyers.

Hopefully the OP is still within the legal time frame to rescind as completing this sale is only the start of a lifetime nightmare for them. If not they should challenge the notice and at least try to get out (even if it COST them a few thousand they would be light years ahead over actually owning at any Wastegate).

The stories of underhanded and corrupt actions by this despicable organization will never end unless they go out of business (hope hope!). The PH Tower of Terror may in fact end up killing them which would be a great outcome and well deserved. If they disappeared tomorrow it would be the start of a great new day for us owners.

[BevL]

This is an interesting question. Most contracts contain more or less boilerplate language to the effect that the contract is the entire agreement between the parties - in other words, it doesn't matter what somebody said, if it is or is not in the contract, that's what governs. That's how they get around the problem you mention, of salesmen lying. They can simply rely on the written contract.

If there's some sort of language like that in a contract that is signed, and there is no recission clause in that written contract, which is required by state law, it would be worth pursuing. At least I would be pursuing that possibility.

I would wager it's in the contract though, probably page 17, clause 361(b)(ii) in print that is half the size of the balance of the document.

JMHO

[AwayWeGo]

Originally Posted by timeos2

If they disappeared tomorrow it would be the start of a great new day for us owners.

Maybe. But not if the successor company operates the same way or worse.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.

[timeos2]

Originally Posted by AwayWeGo

Maybe. But not if the successor company operates the same way or worse.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.

Never say never but in the case of Westgate it simply isn't possible that anything/anyone could be any worse. So even if Genghis Khan came in and literally tried to torture owners most would probably feel they were better off than they are under current management. They are truly the worst of the worst.

[theo]

Originally Posted by timeos2

...in the case of Westgate it simply isn't possible that anything/anyone could be any worse.......
They are truly the worst of the worst.

I don't claim to know who is "the worst of the worst", but other "owner" sites pertaining to "chain" timeshare companies clearly indicate that Celebrity Resorts is also a legitimate contender for this dubious distinction.

So....there is apparently some "competition" for this particular heavyweight championship title....

[Joss]

Thanks to everyone for helping me with my question.
I'm away from home now and will look closer at my contract when I return especially at pg. 17- clause 361.
I'm thinking of involving my lawyer if I feel that something isn't legit.

[theo]

Originally Posted by Joss

Thanks to everyone for helping me with my question.
I'm away from home now and will look closer at my contract when I return especially at pg. 17- clause 361.
I'm thinking of involving my lawyer if I feel that something isn't legit.

State law previously afforded you a rescission period, but that time period had apparently already passed even by the time of your first post here. It has now also been an additional 18 days since that post. Accordingly, the rescission period previously available under state law has clearly long since expired.

If you intend to attempt to cancel the contract at this point, attorney involvement may well become a necessity --- not just an option to "think of involving". I'm no expert (...and I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn last night either), but I would (and I do) certainly question whether the required notice of rescission rights being placed on a separate CD instead of being provided in writing within the actual contract documents is even lawful in the first place. That "notice on separate CD" practice is obviously sneaky, underhanded and deceitful, but whether the practice also fails to adequately (i.e., legally) fulfill the "notice" requirements of the applicable state law is not clear (...not to me, anyhow).

[Joss]

Originally Posted by theo

State law previously afforded you a rescission period, but that time period had apparently already passed even by the time of your first post here. It has now also been an additional 18 days since that post. Accordingly, the rescission period previously available under state law has clearly long since expired.

If you intend to attempt to cancel the contract at this point, attorney involvement may well become a necessity --- not just an option to "think of involving". I'm no expert (...and I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn last night either), but I would (and I do) certainly question whether the required notice of rescission rights being placed on a separate CD instead of being provided in writing within the actual contract documents is even lawful in the first place. That "notice on separate CD" practice is obviously sneaky, underhanded and deceitful, but whether the practice also fails to adequately (i.e., legally) fulfill the "notice" requirements of the applicable state law is not clear (...not to me, anyhow).

I've viewed my purchase contract document on the CD and it wasn't signed by me or my husband. I did notice at the top of it that stated we had 10 days to rescind.
Because there is no signatures or anything filled in the lines what now? We have no signed purchase document anywhere in our case.

[Rent_Share]

I vaguely remeber a post about the document with the recission agreement being "accidentally omitted" in the paperwork provided in a Las Vegas transaction

That buyer did get on the internet while still in Las Vagas and sucessfully rescinded

Here is the scenario I was remembering

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104248

[theo]

Originally Posted by Joss

I've viewed my purchase contract document on the CD and it wasn't signed by me or my husband. I did notice at the top of it that stated we had 10 days to rescind.
Because there is no signatures or anything filled in the lines what now? We have no signed purchase document anywhere in our case.

With due respect, in your initial post on 10/30/09, you clearly indicated having "signed up with" (i.e. purchased from) Westgate. Clearly, you must have personally signed hard copy contract documents in order to initiate that purchase. You were issued that briefcase of materials only after you actually "bought in".
Do you now not have copies of the actual, original hard copy documents which you must have physically signed at the time of your purchase when you paid (at least) a deposit (or more) to execute the contract???

The CD to which you make reference likely just contains "boiler plate" templates of virtually any and every hard copy contract content (simply without the names and dates and other details of the individual transaction involved). In my view, the fundamental question really was (...and still remains) whether or not you were lawfully provided notice of your right of rescission, as is required by law --- either in hard copy form within the actual contract documents which you originally signed, or via this "separate" CD (...a form of "separate notice" which may or may not actually be legally sufficient).

As stated previously, I think that you need competent legal counsel --- and the sooner the better, since it is now apparently more than a month since you (presumably) signed a purchase contract. Time's a wastin'...

[Joss]

Thanks for the advice.
My husband and I did sign a form called a Dayline Proposal so I guess everything is legal there.
I just wished that Westgate would have told us that we could rescind in 10 days. I guess I was looking for a flub by them. I found this site too late and didn't know about any rescinding period which was on a CD included in our case. We didn't look at the CD until it was too late.
When I saw how many people hated this company, I saw red and wondered what the heck did we do! It makes me shudder what crap we'll go through to get a vacation we want. One of our daughters was going to get married in the Dominican this summer and we couldn't get a thing there. We tried to book in Aug. 2008. Are we stuck with going to Orlando forever? LOL
It would be good to hear some positive feedback from Westgate owners instead of the many negatives.

[theo]

Originally Posted by Joss

It would be good to hear some positive feedback from Westgate owners instead of the many negatives.

It would be good, but unlikely. I suggest not holding your breath while awaiting that "positive feedback"...

[DeniseM]

Originally Posted by Joss

It would be good to hear some positive feedback from Westgate owners instead of the many negatives.

I'm sorry you are unhappy with your purchase, but wouldn't you rather hear the truth - negative or not?

[bzzybee13]

Originally Posted by Joss

Thanks for the advice.
My husband and I did sign a form called a Dayline Proposal so I guess everything is legal there.
I just wished that Westgate would have told us that we could rescind in 10 days. I guess I was looking for a flub by them. I found this site too late and didn't know about any rescinding period which was on a CD included in our case. We didn't look at the CD until it was too late.

You still have not said whether or not the 10 day rescission period was stated on the paperwork that you signed. Did that appear in your "Dayline Proposal?" If not you might have a shot at fighting it.

[Joss]

No, it wasn't in the Dayline Proposal or any other paperwork. It's only mentioned on the CD which I think shoudn't be considered legal. We're thinking of getting our lawyer to look things over.

[Rent_Share]

I would document a complaint with the Florida Department of Real estate

Is it coincidental that more than one buyer has landed at TUG without receiving all of there required paperwork including the one that includes the recision information

There may be a pattern here

[theo]

Originally Posted by Rent_Share

Is it coincidental that more than one buyer has landed at TUG without receiving all of there required paperwork including the one that includes the recision information

There may be a pattern here

It seems quite clear that in the OP's situation currently under discussion, rescission information was indeed provided, on site, right at the time of purchase / contract signature(s).

To me, the fundamental question is whether or not Westgate providing that rescission information on a separate CD was / is a legally sufficient form of "notification" under applicable state law. Are only computer users entitled to see that (legally required) notification? I don't claim to know the answer, but it's clear that this is the critically important question to be clearly and conclusively answered if the contract has any prospect of being invalidated these many weeks after contract execution.

[Joss]

We were in Florida for 2 weeks and got our timeshare 2 days before we left. We had no computer with us and who would think to look at the CD right away once at home? I never knew there was such a thing as an recission period at all because there was no mention of it anywhere. I found out about it when I found this site.
After Christmas we'll be showing our timeshare info to our lawyer and see what he thinks and we'll take it from there. If he finds something stinky then I have no idea what will happen because he'll be working on our behalf from Canada. Should be interesting.

[theo]

Originally Posted by Joss

After Christmas we'll be showing our timeshare info to our lawyer and see what he thinks and we'll take it from there. If he finds something stinky then I have no idea what will happen because he'll be working on our behalf from Canada. Should be interesting.

With all due respect I don't see the sense of urgency or concern which such a bad purchase should elicit. Additionally, with no disrespect intended, there are some other flaws in your stated intentions:

1. The longer you wait to take concrete, proactive measures here, the more likely Westgate is to dig in their heels and fight you to the finish. By the time "after Christmas" comes along, your purchase will be several months old. Time is NOT on your side here and this truly is a bad purchase you should be actively pursuing any and every possible way out of --- NOW!

2. Do you really want to pay a Canadian lawyer by the hour to educate himself / herself (maybe or maybe not adequately) on the nuances of Florida state law? You might want to instead consider contacting a Florida bar attorney, likely already well familiar with the applicable statutes.

This is my final input on this particular matter. I wish you luck, but "if you continue to snooze, you'll most certainly lose".

[timeos2]

Originally Posted by Joss

We were in Florida for 2 weeks and got our timeshare 2 days before we left. We had no computer with us and who would think to look at the CD right away once at home? I never knew there was such a thing as an recission period at all because there was no mention of it anywhere. I found out about it when I found this site.
After Christmas we'll be showing our timeshare info to our lawyer and see what he thinks and we'll take it from there. If he finds something stinky then I have no idea what will happen because he'll be working on our behalf from Canada. Should be interesting.

Unfortunately you have waited far too long to act on any type of rescind within the legally required 10 days. Regardless of where that information may have been provided - CD or paperwork or both - you can rest absolutely assured that whatever notice you got meets or exceeds the legal requirement as interpreted by the expensive legal team at Wastegate. They don't don't do things that are not going to make them money and they may live on the edge of legality but they hold that edge in their favor. If you choose to pay a lawyer to attempt to fight it at this late date in all likelihood it will be more money you'll never recover.

It is probably best to figure out if you want to try to utilize what you bought or take a HUGE loss and try to sell it (it is worth basically nothing on resale). All of your justifications for being able to back out of the purchase simply will not hold up to the paperwork Wastegate got you to sign, the payments you made affirming the sale and the deed they have by now rightfully recorded. You own it and will have to deal with that fact going forward. You are far from alone if that makes you feel any better. Good luck.

[Rent_Share]

IMHO desperate sales types are intentionally leaving out the document with the recision right.

There is no way that buried in the bytes of the CD would meet any state's notice requirement.

When the corporation operates on the edge of the law, it's very easy for the employees to stray over the line since they are so close

No doubt the 10 day period is over, a consumer complaint to the RE Commision aout the omission of the (paper) signed document and rghts of recision buried on a CD costs nothing more than a little time and postage.

The staute is quite clear that an executed copy (signed) including the recision rights is required and Westagate violated that statute.

The 2009 Florida Statutes


Title XL
REAL AND PERSONAL PROPERTYChapter 721
VACATION AND TIMESHARE PLANSView Entire Chapter
721.06 Contracts for purchase of timeshare interests.--
(1) Each seller shall utilize and furnish each purchaser a fully completed and executed copy of a contract pertaining to the sale, which contract shall include the following information:
(a) The actual date the contract is executed by each party.
(b) The names and addresses of the developer and the timeshare plan.
(c) The initial purchase price and any additional charges to which the purchaser may be subject in connection with the purchase of the timeshare interest, such as financing, or which will be collected from the purchaser on or before closing, such as the current year's annual assessment for common expenses.
(d)1. For real property timeshare plans, an estimate of any anticipated annual assessment stated on an annually recurring basis for any use charges, fees, common expenses, or ad valorem taxes or, if an estimate is unavailable, the current year's actual annual assessment for any use charges, fees, common expenses, or ad valorem taxes.
2. For personal property timeshare plans, an estimate of any anticipated annual assessment stated on an annually recurring basis for any use charges, fees, common expenses, or taxes or, if an estimate is unavailable, the current year's actual annual assessment for any use charges, fees, common expenses, or taxes.
(e) The estimated date of completion of construction of each accommodation or facility promised to be completed which is not completed at the time the contract is executed and the estimated date of closing.
(f) A brief description of the nature and duration of the timeshare interest being sold, including whether any interest in real property or personal property is being conveyed and the specific number of years constituting the term of the timeshare plan.
(g) Immediately prior to the space reserved in the contract for the signature of the purchaser, in conspicuous type, substantially the following statements:

1. If the purchaser will receive a personal property timeshare interest: This personal property timeshare plan is governed only by limited sections of the timeshare management provisions of Florida law.
2. If the accommodations or facilities are located on or in a documented vessel or foreign vessel as provided in s. 721.08(2)(c)3.e., the disclosure required by s. 721.08(2)(c)3.e.(IV).
3. You may cancel this contract without any penalty or obligation within 10 calendar days after the date you sign this contract or the date on which you receive the last of all documents required to be given to you pursuant to section 721.07(6), Florida Statutes, whichever is later. If you decide to cancel this contract, you must notify the seller in writing of your intent to cancel. Your notice of cancellation shall be effective upon the date sent and shall be sent to (Name of Seller) at (Address of Seller) . Any attempt to obtain a waiver of your cancellation right is void and of no effect. While you may execute all closing documents in advance, the closing, as evidenced by delivery of the deed or other document, before expiration of your 10-day cancellation period, is prohibited.

(h) If a timeshare estate is being conveyed, the following statement in conspicuous type:

For the purpose of ad valorem assessment, taxation and special assessments, the managing entity will be considered the taxpayer as your agent pursuant to section 192.037, Florida Statutes.

(i) A statement that, in the event the purchaser cancels the contract during a 10-day cancellation period, the developer will refund to the purchaser the total amount of all payments made by the purchaser under the contract, reduced by the proportion of any contract benefits the purchaser has actually received under the contract prior to the effective date of the cancellation. The statement shall further provide that the refund will be made within 20 days after receipt of notice of cancellation or within 5 days after receipt of funds from the purchaser's cleared check, whichever is later. A seller and a purchaser shall agree in writing on a specific value for each contract benefit received by the purchaser for purposes of this paragraph. The term "contract benefit" shall not include purchaser public offering statements or other documentation or materials that must be furnished to a purchaser pursuant to statute or rule.
(j) If the timeshare interest is being sold pursuant to an agreement for deed or an agreement for transfer, a statement that the signing of the agreement for deed or agreement for transfer does not entitle the purchaser to receive the conveyance or transfer of his or her timeshare estate or personal property timeshare interest until all payments under the agreement have been made.
(k) Unless the developer is, at the time of offering the plan, the owner of the accommodations and facilities of the timeshare plan, free and clear of all liens, encumbrances, and claims of other interestholders, a statement that the developer is not the sole owner of the underlying fee or owner of the underlying personal property or that the accommodations or facilities are subject to liens or encumbrances, which statement shall include:
1. The names and addresses of all other interestholders; and
2. The actual interest of the developer in the accommodations or facilities. As an alternative to including the statement in the purchase contract, a seller may include a reference in the purchase contract to the location in the purchaser public offering statement text of such information.
(l) If the purchaser will receive an interest in a multisite timeshare plan pursuant to part II, a statement shall be provided in conspicuous type in substantially the following form:

The developer is required to provide the managing entity of the multisite timeshare plan with a copy of the approved public offering statement text and exhibits filed with the division and any approved amendments thereto, and any other component site documents as described in section 721.07 or section 721.55, Florida Statutes, that are not required to be filed with the division, to be maintained by the managing entity for inspection as part of the books and records of the plan.

(m) The following statement in conspicuous type:

Any resale of this timeshare interest must be accompanied by certain disclosures in accordance with section 721.065, Florida Statutes.

(n) A description of any rights reserved by the developer to alter or modify the offering prior to closing.
(2)(a) An agreement for deed shall be recorded by the developer within 30 days after the day it is executed by the purchaser. The developer shall pay all recording costs associated therewith. A form copy of such instrument must be filed with the division for review pursuant to s. 721.07.
(b) An agreement for transfer shall be filed with the appropriate official responsible for maintaining such records in the appropriate jurisdiction within 30 days after the day it is executed by the purchaser. The developer shall pay all filing costs associated therewith. A form copy of such instrument must be filed with the division for review pursuant to s. 721.07. (3) The escrow agent shall provide the developer with a receipt for all purchaser funds or other property received by the escrow agent from a seller. History.--s. 1, ch. 81-172; s. 61, ch. 82-226; s. 5, ch. 83-264; s. 3, ch. 93-58; s. 3, ch. 95-274; s. 3, ch. 98-36; s. 10, ch. 2000-302; s. 4, ch. 2004-279.