Newbie with Marriott TS pre-purchase questions - Help

[Bear69]

I am new to timesahres and am looking for some answers to a few questions regarding TS's. My wife and I are looking to purchase a Platimun Week at Marriott's Frenchman's Cove but are a bit confused by it all. If anyone could answers these questions it would be greatly appriciated.

1. It seems that everyone that I speak to or read about on this forum generaly loves Marriott and the TS's that they offer. But after viewing this video http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=6260205 why would anyone want to purchase a TS?
   
2. I have read so much about purchasing on the resale market vs. from the developer and saving 30-50% but on every site that I check out like tug2.net, redweek.com and others I just don't see that kind of pricing for Frenchman's Cove. Pricing is mostly around what we would pay to the developer. Am I looking in the wrong place or are the prices higher because this is a very new TS?
   
3. I see allot of referances to the word "Lockoff" what does this mean?
   
4. Some posts say EOY, I'm assming that that means every other year, can you get a Marriott TS EOY vs. EY?

Any other advice would be great..

Thanks for your help....

[DanCali]

Originally Posted by Bear69

I am new to timesahres and am looking for some answers to a few questions regarding TS's. My wife and I are looking to purchase a Platimun Week at Marriott's Frenchman's Cove but are a bit confused by it all. If anyone could answers these questions it would be greatly appriciated.

1. It seems that everyone that I speak to or read about on this forum generaly loves Marriott and the TS's that they offer. But after viewing this video http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=6260205 why would anyone want to purchase a TS?
   
2. I have read so much about purchasing on the resale market vs. from the developer and saving 30-50% but on every site that I check out like tug2.net, redweek.com and others I just don't see that kind of pricing for Frenchman's Cove. Pricing is mostly around what we would pay to the developer. Am I looking in the wrong place or are the prices higher because this is a very new TS?
   
3. I see allot of referances to the word "Lockoff" what does this mean?
   
4. Some posts say EOY, I'm assming that that means every other year, can you get a Marriott TS EOY vs. EY?

Any other advice would be great..

Thanks for your help....

I'll answer from the perspective of a recent newbie, but I'm sure others can give you more insights on the Marriott system.

Personally, I think it is getting harder and harder to justify a timeshare as a financial investment (in the sense that it saves over comparable rental costs).

The "true" cost of a timeshare is (i) ongoing maintenance fees (ii) opportunity cost of the initial investment and (iii) the depreciation (or unlikely appreciation as a "negative" cost") in resale value. Since MFs usually increase, this increases ongoing costs as well as reduces resale value, which is an indirect cost you realize upon an eventual sale. On the other hand, hotel managers like Marriott and Starwood have to be more prudent when managing hotels because patrons can just walk into the neighboring property if it gets too expensive. Thus, competition keeps hotel costs under control and the advantage of owning versus renting decreases over time.

That said, many people (including me) enjoy owning and planning vacations and trades. It is a different experience than renting. If you do your homework and purchase somewhere where you can go, get valuable trades, or rent out at a premium to MFs (to help cover "opportunity cost of upfront invetment") you may come out ahead of renting yourself, but since it's a perpetual ownership nothing is guaranteed. Also, many of the "horror stories" you hear apply to timeshares that just don't have any resale value and Marriotts are not in that category. That said, all it takes is one boneheaded move to decimate resale prices; Starwood did that when they created voluntary resorts which cannot use the internal trading network when resold to a resale buyer.

Because of the opportunity cost of the initial investment, retail ownership is pretty hard to justify. If you consider you can usually invest for a 5% rate of return at relatively low risk (eg treasuries or a long term CD) then spending $30K or sometimes $60K on a timeshare costs you $1500-$3000 a year in foregone income before you even spend money on MFs or consider you lose over half that amount when you eventually sell. Unless you are looking for something with very low resale supply and need to have just that, I personally just don't see how to justify that financially.

Resale prices are a function of supply and demand. For new resorts there is less supply so prices are higher. I have also found that many resale owners who purchased from the developer are clueless about resale prices because salespeople may have lead them to believe that if the developer raises prices that means timeshares appreciate. Asking prices are not sales prices... eBay is a good place to get a better idea of the true market value of a timeshare, but because of some pitfalls of buying on eBay I don't necessarily recommend buying there - that's your choice. But it is a good place to start and follow prices and can help if you negotiate with a private seller. You can search for completed listings under "Advanced Search" if you are an eBay member.

A lockoff unit is a 2 or 3bedroom floorplan that can be split into two units (Marriott charges some fee for doing this, other developers don't). So a 2BR can be split into a 1BR and a studio (or a smaller 1BR). You can make separate reservations and use them (use, rent, or trade) separately all for the price of one maintenance fee. Not all Marriott resorts have lockoffs. Some people like them and some don't for various and different reasons.

Regarding every other year ownership, you can buy that retail or resale. The resale seller would need to own a unit deeded as EOY. In this case you pay MFs anually buy they are half of the total MFs.

Good luck!

[m61376]

Just to add a little to the above:
-WRT resale prices, as DanCali pointed out, selling price can vary dramatically from asking price. Some sellers are unrealistic, but some are desperate, esp, in this market. So the best way to get a good price is to keep on trying. Get a sense of the bottom line pricing from Ebay and by inquiring here and hold out for your price. Contact a few resale brokers, contact every seller that advertises; it may take some time and some legwork, but you will save thousands of dollars.

-The first issue is a bit harder to address. I agree with DanCali that one of the benefits of ownership is the ability to plan. The saying that "if you have it you'll use it" is true. There isn't the annual issue of "should I spend the money on a vacation or...;" ownership does tend to make you find time for getting away. Planning is also easy; if you're lazy you can simply go to your home resort, or you can spend a little more time and effort and trade for a different destination.

Returning to the same place also fosters a different vacation experience. Before owning a timeshare we traveled to different places constantly, and never spent an entire week in a single location. We had great trips, but never really took a relaxing vacation. For us at least, owning a timeshare forces us to go away and relax rather than constantly running around. Of course, the opportunity exists to go to different places, but we've discovered there is something to be said to returning to the same destination and the familiarity and comfort of returning home.

Rental prices today are depressed, and in many locations you can rent for not much more than the MF's. While it may be hard to justify an off season week at certain destinations, where a Getaway week is easily obtainable (of course, to buy a Getaway through II you have to own at least one timeshare unit) at a lower rate than the annual MF's, if you intend to travel during peak time periods rental rates historically have been high. Because of the economy rental rates have been depressed, and I expect that they will increase as the economy recovers, again making ownership cheaper than renting.

The other issue is that renting takes more effort and does carry a risk. Renting from an owner is not the same as renting form Marriott directly, and there is no guarantee that there won't be a problem. Certainly for a Plat. Caribbean week a direct rental is much more expensive than the MF's and, while you may be able to get bargain rentals this year, they likely will rise significantly when the economy recovers.

One other thought when considering the cost of annual MF's: with a timeshare, besides a lot more space you are also getting kitchen facilities. If you opt to eat breakfast in, pack a lunch and drinks for the beach, and perhaps grill a couple of nights, the savings over eating out can approximate your MF's. There are ways to save costs when on a timeshare vacation that you just can't do renting a hotel room, aside from all the quality of vacation issues that timeshares afford.

So, while you shouldn't make a purchase without thinking about the costs and whether the benefits make sense to you, understand that some of the benefits are hard to quantify. Timeshares make it easier to travel with families, they make it easier to travel with grandparents or siblings perhaps, and they make it easier to invite friends. I think many owners will tell you that they have enjoyed inviting people that perhaps they otherwise wouldn't have and have taken more vacations than they did before. Ownership is just conducive to a different type of trip planning, and I think that's a big benefit to ownership.

[FlyerBobcat]

Welcome to TUG!
I have not seen a platinum Frenchman's Cove on ebay in the past year+. I've logged 4 ebay silver season sales in the last ~4 months..... in the TUG Sales History database for that resort (available to TUG members). Nothing else before that in the previous year.

My advice (just to repeat from the EXCELLENT advice you have already received) is to take your time and slow down. If you have "the bug" on buying a timeshare, this sometimes becomes difficult advice to follow. Remember,

Timeshares are EASY to buy.... and difficult to sell.

[MOXJO7282]

Its next to impossible to justify a direct purchase so in most people's opinion you'll need to be patient and wait for the right resale deal or go the rental route.

So to "buy resale or not to buy resale" should be the question. Ok you said one thing that leads me in the
"buy" direction, you wanted a platinum week. If you had said a gold or less week, I would have said case closed, rent, because off-season weeks can be rented fairly easily at execlllent prices.

The fact is many plat weeks are available via rent from the likes of Redweek and similar, but those weeks will have more competition and therefore won't come as cheap or as easy.

For instances, what drove me to buy a 2BDRM Maui Marriott 9 years ago (I did buy direct, but that was a different era) was I wanted to take my family to Maui for President's week regularly, one of the most demanded weeks in the entire calendar.

I checked many rentals sites before I purchased to see what it would cost and I saw $3000+ for what I wanted. Comparing that to the $998 maintenance at the time, it became obvious to me that if I wanted to regularly travel to Maui during Pres week the best financial approach for us was to buy a week.

I would do the same if I were you. First study the rental market. How cheaply can you rent what you want compared to MFs? If you tell me that delta is less than $1000, I would recommend renting, because you could spend 15+ years paying that extra $1000 renting before you spent the money you would've to purchase.

However if that delta of renting vs MF is $1200+ then that would seem to warrant a resale purchase because there is an annual savngs that will provide a "Return of Investment" that validates the purchase.

That's my .02 anyway.

[Uccello]

We bought our first timeshare direct from Marriott a few years back because we always wanted to go skiing in Feb. with the kids. Even after all these years we still consider ourselves newbies to TS. Last year we purchased another fixed week (President's week) on the resale market.

I'd have to say that before purchasing a timeshare you should really inventory what kind of person you are. If you like looking for deals, are very organized, you enjoy going to the same resort often, then a time share might make sense. That is how you get the best value out of it. If you hate keeping tabs on your points, miles and rewards cards; if you can't get up at 6am a _year_ prior to the week you want to vacation; or you are super spontaneous and like to go to different places every year renting might be a better option IMHO. Also, if you don't like to cook and have little use for the kitchen, renting in a nice hotel suite is probably a better way to go.

Personally, I hated getting up at 5:45am to book our ski week at park city because our kids had one particular week off in february so we didn't have the flexibility to take another week if ours was full. I think in four years we were able to successfully book our first choice by phone once. Luckily our school moved the vacation week to Presidents week so we purchased a fixed week. Since we own two weeks we call in 13 months in advance, so booking is a lot easier now.

For us the pro's of our timeshare outweigh the cons. A lot of this feeling has to do with the fact that at Mountainside we can walk out our door and get right on a lift, the service is great and very friendly and they have a lot of activities for the kids. We have a kitchen and we like to cook. We live near the beach in California so we really aren't looking to exchange weeks, we just want to use it to ski.

On the mountain future real estate development is very restricted. (Good for us to keep property values high) I'm not sure if the same can be said for TS resorts in the desert or other locations where there is the potential for another development right next door.

Before we purchased our second timeshare we rented a President's week direct from owners to get a feel for how crowded the mountain would be. I would highly recommend renting at least once to see if you really like the resort. Just think of it as a very relaxing test drive.

Finally, I would _not_ let to offers of exchange weeks and points drive your decision. While it is nice to have all the little bells and whistles, I find it really annoying if I want to stay within the Marriott system that I have to use (and pay an annual fee for) Interval International.

Remember, buying a TS, especially from the developer, is like paying your next 20 vacations up front at the time of purchase.

[kjd]

This is not meant to revive those torturous discussions about buying direct vs buying resale. You can read those threads for yourself and decide what fits your situation. Having said that, here is my opinion how some posters have missed the mark on this issue.

If you're trying to buy a timeshare on the basis of making it fit into strictly a financial decision you shouldn't own one. Financially, it makes no sense.
Buy something else.

Severe depreciation of timeshares is often cited as a financial negative. It's true. However, a lot of things also depreciate such as the value of the money in your wallet. As we speak it's depreciating. Should we then not use money as a medium of exchange? Depreciation is a normal and necessary occurrence. To read these posts one would think that several folks here are still on the barter system because of their dislike of a depreciating asset.

There is no such thing as an opportunity cost when buying a timeshare. It's a lifestyle decision much like owning a motor home, a golf membership, a boat, etc. Even if you considered an opportunity cost, where would you have been better off putting your money in the last ten years? Residential real estate? Stocks? Mortgages? Commercial real estate? All losers. The only "opportunity" you would have had is to lose more or less money rather than buying a timeshare.

Timeshares should be considered as a stand alone proposition based upon many non-financial factors. Vacations with family. The notion that you will set aside vacation time because of your TS ownership. Vacationing when and where you want to go. Always having a place to vacation. Vacationing in upscale accommodations. The pride of ownership. These are just some of the reasons for owning a timeshare.

Frenchman's Cove is a beautiful place to vacation. It's hard to trade into during prime times. But it's not wise to purchase there if you're not going to spend the majority of your vacations there.

Consider whether you want to be a timeshare owner. If you do, then buy where you think you will spend most of your vacation time. You'll be a lot happier than agonizing over your "lost opportunities".

[aberlin]

We own a TS at Mountainside, purchased in 2000. It has worked very well thus far, as we ski every year at Park City. Having read some of the threads about resale purchases, where does one find the best potential deals for the purchase of another week.

[m61376]

Originally Posted by aberlin

We own a TS at Mountainside, purchased in 2000. It has worked very well thus far, as we ski every year at Park City. Having read some of the threads about resale purchases, where does one find the best potential deals for the purchase of another week.

Look at the sticky at the top of the Buying/Selling/Renting forum for a list of places to look (Redweek.com, Myresortnetwork.com, Craigslist, etc). Don't forget to look at the Tug marketplace; you can even place a "wanted" ad. Look at the websites and don't be afraid to make an offer, even if the asking price is high; get an idea of what a good price would be and keep on looking until you find someone willing to sell at that price. Sometimes people are very negotiable, so don't be afraid of making an offer. Look on Ebay. Contact some reputable resale agents (Shelley from Transactionrealty.com and Jessica from Timesharing2000.com are two I'd recommend; others will chime in with their own recommendations I'm sure).

[timeos2]

Originally Posted by Bear69

[list=1][*]It seems that everyone that I speak to or read about on this forum generaly loves Marriott and the TS's that they offer. But after viewing this video http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=6260205 why would anyone want to purchase a TS?

The landscape has changed dramatically from two or three years ago. Then you couldn't buy resale at deep discount prices and the economy was still strong. Renting was high cost and availability limited.

Now resale is the ONLY way to buy, ROFR is dead (even Marriott won't buy!) and of course the economy is terrible. Add in that fees, the only certainty in timeshare, are sky rocketing and even formerly higher resale value weeks are dropping to dimes or less on the retail dollar. So many people can't afford to travel that even prime weeks offered fror rent at less than annual fees may go begging.

It is NOT a good time to buy a timeshare unless you see value in a deeply discounted purchase price , resale of course, and can justify for your use the (rising) annual fees.

Originally Posted by Bear69

[*]I have read so much about purchasing on the resale market vs. from the developer and saving 30-50% but on every site that I check out like tug2.net, redweek.com and others I just don't see that kind of pricing for Frenchman's Cove. Pricing is mostly around what we would pay to the developer. Am I looking in the wrong place or are the prices higher because this is a very new TS?

Some seller don't know or simply don't believe how prices have dropped. Pay no attention to asking price and offer 30% at most (in many cases much lower) of retail and, in a short time, you'll find a willing seller. TGhe worst they can say is NO and you move to the next. If not found then wait & rent while you wait. That may be the best long term plan anyway as that way you aren't forced to pay the annual fees.

Originally Posted by Bear69

[*]I see allot of referances to the word "Lockoff" what does this mean?

A 2 or 3 bedroom unit that can be closed off to form two separate units - each can usually be deposited.

Originally Posted by Bear69

[*]Some posts say EOY, I'm assming that that means every other year, can you get a Marriott TS EOY vs. EY?

Yes some are every year, some every other year. EOY tends to sell for less as a general rule although they can be a great way to own.