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Door Slammed Shut on Pete Rose!

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http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_...ines-shows-pete-rose-bet-baseball-player-1986

My uncle is a former Florida based bookie and baseball card dealer and greyhound odds maker. He had a newspaper article written on him and he was known as "Howie the Hunch". He personally knew Pete Rose and had several dealings with him that he always said was cash under the table. He always told me that Pete was a degenerate that he knew had personally bet on baseball as a player and manager. My uncle knew the bookies Pete worked through.
 

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Well, any hope of being enshrined at Cooperstown is now gone! Which is too bad in one sense, as he was a hell of a ball player....and not juiced as far as we know!
 

pedro47

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I wanted this person to be a part of the Baseball's Hall of Frame. Now I have totally change my mind.
 
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Interesting how he bet on baseball and got a lifetime ban, which means he profited from the wins. On the other hand, Alex Rodriguez, Mark Mcguire, et al used performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs - aka steroids), which meant their victories were due to steroids, but they were not banned.

I think banning for drugs must be the same as betting on games. They're the same.

TS
 

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I have always found the rabid fanaticism against Pete Rose to be so absurd. He bet on baseball, yes. He broke the rules, yes. He is a liar, yes. But there is no evidence that he bet against his team. However people act like he threw a playoff series or something.
 

DaveNV

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Interesting how he bet on baseball and got a lifetime ban, which means he profited from the wins. On the other hand, Alex Rodriguez, Mark Mcguire, et al used performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs - aka steroids), which meant their victories were due to steroids, but they were not banned.

I think banning for drugs must be the same as betting on games. They're the same.

TS


All of which equals giving the cheater an unfair advantage. Kind of like deflating footballs. But that's a topic for another thread. :ignore:

Dave
 

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I have always found the rabid fanaticism against Pete Rose to be so absurd. He bet on baseball, yes. He broke the rules, yes. He is a liar, yes. But there is no evidence that he bet against his team. However people act like he threw a playoff series or something.


Even as a manager, though. Let's say he has a bet on a game, and it's come down to the 9th inning with a one run lead, and he's used his closer in 3 straight games. Does he use his closer again, going against the player's better interest to preserve his arm, and the team's better interest to have the player fresh later in the season, or does he work the guy another game, to win the bet? And betting on games you aren't playing in: wouldn't a bet on a future game be influenced by a trade that a manager has a say in?

I loved Pete Rose when he was a player, as much as I loved to hate him and harass him when he played the Pirates (my brother and I even got a hat-tip once). But there's a reason that there's a rule against betting on games, any games, including those he wasn't playing or managing, and it's a good one.
 

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Even as a manager, though. Let's say he has a bet on a game, and it's come down to the 9th inning with a one run lead, and he's used his closer in 3 straight games. Does he use his closer again, going against the player's better interest to preserve his arm, and the team's better interest to have the player fresh later in the season, or does he work the guy another game, to win the bet? And betting on games you aren't playing in: wouldn't a bet on a future game be influenced by a trade that a manager has a say in?

I loved Pete Rose when he was a player, as much as I loved to hate him and harass him when he played the Pirates (my brother and I even got a hat-tip once). But there's a reason that there's a rule against betting on games, any games, including those he wasn't playing or managing, and it's a good one.


Absolutely agree about the manipulation that can occur. And I am posign no objection to MLB's rules against betting on baseball. I'm more fascinated with the punishment for the 'crime', the rabid fervor by which the infraction results in a lifetime ban not from the hall of fame. I could see a ban from participating in the MLB in any way for life, but also banning him from the hall of fame for his accomplishments? That is particularly vindictive.
 

"Roger"

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But there is no evidence that he bet against his team. However people act like he threw a playoff series or something.[/QUOTE]

On Sunday , he bets $10,000 on Cinncy. He loses. His bookie tells him that he will forgive him the $10,000 if Cinncy loses on Thursday. He hasn't bet against Cinncy, but has $10,000 riding on the outcome - that they lose.
 

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Maybe every player should be made to bet on their own team. Then we might see a little more "hustle" in the way they play the game.
 

Beefnot

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On Sunday , he bets $10,000 on Cinncy. He loses. His bookie tells him that he will forgive him the $10,000 if Cinncy loses on Thursday. He hasn't bet against Cinncy, but has $10,000 riding on the outcome - that they lose.

Got it. We don't have evidence of that happening, but it nonetheless possible, and there is no disagreement about the manipulations that can occur. Still, the issue I have is: ok, no participating in baseball operations forever after. But a lifetime ban from the hall of fame? It makes little rational sense to me.
 

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I think Charlie Hustle should be reinstated for just one day.
Induct him into the Hall of Fame and then ban him again for life.
How is it that the lifetime hits leader is not in the Hall?

I'm pretty sure that Pete would have been reinstated had Bart Giamatti not have died a month after banning him. No commish since wants to overrule one who cannot speak from the grave.
 

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Absolutely agree about the manipulation that can occur. And I am posign no objection to MLB's rules against betting on baseball. I'm more fascinated with the punishment for the 'crime', the rabid fervor by which the infraction results in a lifetime ban not from the hall of fame. I could see a ban from participating in the MLB in any way for life, but also banning him from the hall of fame for his accomplishments? That is particularly vindictive.

I agree. I actually think he should be in the HOF, but banned from any and all MLB activities. You're right that the HOF part is vindictive. He was banned from baseball in 1989 and then in 1991 the HOF came out with a new rule that anybody on the permanently banned list could not be listed on the HOF ballot.

I actually can't stand the baseball writers. They're such a sanctimonious bunch!
 

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Interesting how he bet on baseball and got a lifetime ban, which means he profited from the wins. On the other hand, Alex Rodriguez, Mark Mcguire, et al used performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs - aka steroids), which meant their victories were due to steroids, but they were not banned.

I think banning for drugs must be the same as betting on games. They're the same.

TS

I know I'm in the minority, but I actually don't have a big problem with PED's and I would like to see them evaluated and approved on a scientific basis. The purists will whine about the historical records, but I think it makes for a better game. If you can take something that will help you recover and heal faster then why not? There are many "enhancements" not considered PED's that weren't available to players in the past that can now extend and improve a players career. For example knee surgery, Tommy John surgery, Achilles surgery, LASIK and cataract surgery (there are numerous pro athletes who've had LASIK and cataract surgery), etc. Also, do you know what nearly every person is put on immediately post surgery - steroids! Why - to reduce swelling and inflammation to allow the person to recover from the surgery quicker.
 

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http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_...ines-shows-pete-rose-bet-baseball-player-1986

My uncle is a former Florida based bookie and baseball card dealer and greyhound odds maker. He had a newspaper article written on him and he was known as "Howie the Hunch". He personally knew Pete Rose and had several dealings with him that he always said was cash under the table. He always told me that Pete was a degenerate that he knew had personally bet on baseball as a player and manager. My uncle knew the bookies Pete worked through.

And yes, my uncle was kind of a degenerate too. However, he was a hell of a lot of fun to visit and hang out with! He's in his late 60's now so he's slowed down quite a bit and his hard living has really caught up with him.
 
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I think part of the problem is that being banned from "baseball activities" isn't much of a penalty for a vast majority of ex-players. So, even though being banned from the HOF might not seem appropriate in Rose's case, there are seemingly not many fitting alternatives.

Coupled with the fact that Pete's always been a lying, unremorseful a-hole, there really isn't a lot of impetus for doing anything positive on his behalf. And, yes, I do believe the way he's acted has had serious negative implications.
 

"Roger"

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I know I'm in the minority, but I actually don't have a big problem with PED's and I would like to see them evaluated and approved on a scientific basis. The purists will whine about the historical records, but I think it makes for a better game. If you can take something that will help you recover and heal faster then why not? There are many "enhancements" not considered PED's that weren't available to players in the past that can now extend and improve a players career. For example knee surgery, Tommy John surgery, Achilles surgery, LASIK and cataract surgery (there are numerous pro athletes who've had LASIK and cataract surgery), etc. Also, do you know what nearly every person is put on immediately post surgery - steroids! Why - to reduce swelling and inflammation to allow the person to recover from the surgery quicker.

In essence, you would be mandating that any high school kid who want to participate in athletics would have to take steroids. If not, he would be playing against bigger, stronger kids who are using them. I don't think taking drugs of unknown safety should be a requirement for participating in high school sports.
 

pedro47

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Is this new news about Pete Rose or is this the same information about Rose in a totally new format ?
 

dioxide45

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I know I'm in the minority, but I actually don't have a big problem with PED's and I would like to see them evaluated and approved on a scientific basis. The purists will whine about the historical records, but I think it makes for a better game. If you can take something that will help you recover and heal faster then why not? There are many "enhancements" not considered PED's that weren't available to players in the past that can now extend and improve a players career. For example knee surgery, Tommy John surgery, Achilles surgery, LASIK and cataract surgery (there are numerous pro athletes who've had LASIK and cataract surgery), etc. Also, do you know what nearly every person is put on immediately post surgery - steroids! Why - to reduce swelling and inflammation to allow the person to recover from the surgery quicker.

Not sure if wrestling would be a good example of why to avoid PEDs? Do we really want a lot of former baseball players dying in their 50s?
 

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In essence, you would be mandating that any high school kid who want to participate in athletics would have to take steroids. If not, he would be playing against bigger, stronger kids who are using them. I don't think taking drugs of unknown safety should be a requirement for participating in high school sports.

Nope. I didn't say that at all. I said if there's something that's been scientifically proven to be safe and effective then I don't see the big problem. Since large scale studies are impractical to be done on kids younger than 18, I don't think it should be allowed for high school kids. We don't allow high schoolers to legally drink alcohol.
 

pedro47

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Is Pete Rose the only baseball player that lied to the press and the court system? What about those steroid baseball players that denied they used PED's drugs (some are still playing and are breaking baseball major league records)?
 

"Roger"

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Nope. I didn't say that at all. I said if there's something that's been scientifically proven to be safe and effective then I don't see the big problem. Since large scale studies are impractical to be done on kids younger than 18, I don't think it should be allowed for high school kids. We don't allow high schoolers to legally drink alcohol.

If the pros are openly taking them to improve performance , there is no way that you will stop the high school kids from following in their heroes' footsteps . You might as well try to stop the rain from falling .
 

csxjohn

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Is Pete Rose the only baseball player that lied to the press and the court system? What about those steroid baseball players that denied they used PED's drugs (some are still playing and are breaking baseball major league records)?

He's in trouble for betting on baseball games not for lying about it. Now that it appears he bet while a player and not just as a manger, he will probably never see the HOF.

The lying part just adds to his resume of his lack of character.
 
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