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General Mills says you can't sue them

Rose Pink

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http://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/news/when-liking-a-brand-online-voids-the-right-to-sue-509864

"Might downloading a 50-cent coupon for Cheerios cost you legal rights?
General Mills, the maker of iconic cereals like Cheerios and Chex as well as brands like Bisquick and Betty Crocker, has quietly added language to its website to alert consumers that they give up their right to sue the company if they download coupons, "join" it in online communities like Facebook, enter a company-sponsored sweepstakes or contest or interact with it in a variety of other ways."
 

geekette

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sure, just like I have a disclaimer on my resume saying that anyone hiring me gives up the right to pursue me for legal action if I wreck their business...

I don't think disavowing any culpability because you liked me on Facebook will really prevail legally. This will get interesting...
 

sun&fun

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If this is General Mills' attempt to avoid suits over deceptive or false labeling like those described in the article, both consumer and producer would be better off if GM just practiced more truthiness.
 
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csxjohn

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Just like when buying a TS, you should read what you are agreeing to. Many people see those pop up windows on line and check the "I agree" box.
 

theo

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Nonsense...

http://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/news/when-liking-a-brand-online-voids-the-right-to-sue-509864

"Might downloading a 50-cent coupon for Cheerios cost you legal rights?
General Mills, the maker of iconic cereals like Cheerios and Chex as well as brands like Bisquick and Betty Crocker, has quietly added language to its website to alert consumers that they give up their right to sue the company if they download coupons, "join" it in online communities like Facebook, enter a company-sponsored sweepstakes or contest or interact with it in a variety of other ways."

The right to file suit against an entity cannot be unilaterally denied by a potential litigant and certainly not by the mere downloading of coupons or participation in games, sweepstakes or online communities. That's just silly, wishful thinking and badly flawed legal reasoning --- at best.

Web site proclamations don't just somehow "make it so". Is someone at General Mills' legal dept. smoking their breakfast Cheerios, something stronger --- or both? :rolleyes:
 
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geekette

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yes, but ... a lot of people are inclined to believe what they are told so it really could prevent some lawsuits, hopefully all the frivolous ones.

often someone shows up on Tug saying "we were told..." and believing it to be true simply because it was told to them. Sweet, but naive, as if the only things one might be told are true and that you should never question information received. Unfortunately it is no longer Mayberry, USA and unquestioning belief in statements is likely going to be bad for you. I don't quite know what to make of that but perhaps they bought into the childhood "do as you are told" thing and never shed it?

I think the move by GIS is short-sighted and rather ridiculous. Absolutely makes me question their judgement.
 

siesta

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yes, but ... a lot of people are inclined to believe what they are told so it really could prevent some lawsuits[/S]
yes this is usually the point, to deter lawsuits.

Something unrelated but worth mentioning, you know those disclaimers on the back of parking garage or valet tickets "limiting their liability," well those typically have absolutely no legal effect. It is a simple issue of bailment. They just put it there to deter suits.

Funny story, years ago I was out to dinner witth some friends, they had just travelled to the carib. for the first time, and said they had a great time but only downside was when they returned to the US and went to develop their film (before digital days) the big name store lost their film. So I said no problem I'll sue them for you, he laughed thinking I was joking, but I was serious. My friend said what are you gonna do get me the price of two new rolls of film?

The next day I called up the store's legal department. I told the attorney the issue, he said to me "the receipt has a disclaimer limiting our liability." I said listen, You know thats b.s., you are a bailee. Either make this right or I'll see you in court. he sighed, and said well what do you want? I told him I wanted enough money to send my client on another carib. vacation so he can take new pictures replacing the ones that you lost. I got them enough money to go on a nicer vacation than they went on before, with a little extra spending cash in their pocket too. Cost of litigating, especially when they were absolutely liable and I would have successfully obtained summary judgement, would of exceeded the settlement, even for an institutional litigant.
 

MuranoJo

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Siesta, what are your business hours & contact info.? JK, but I'd love a re-do on one or two trips.:p
 

Tia

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Most people aren't going to know that so it's cheap protection , until they run into someone who knows as below :ponder:

....The next day I called up the store's legal department. I told the attorney the issue, he said to me "the receipt has a disclaimer limiting our liability." I said listen, You know thats b.s., you are a bailee. Either make this right or I'll see you in court. he sighed, and said well what do you want? I told him I wanted enough money to send my client on another carib. vacation so he can take new pictures replacing the ones that you lost. I got them enough money to go on a nicer vacation than they went on before, with a little extra spending cash in their pocket too. Cost of litigating, especially when they were absolutely liable and I would have successfully obtained summary judgement, would of exceeded the settlement, even for an institutional litigant.
 

geekette

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yes this is usually the point, to deter lawsuits.

Something unrelated but worth mentioning, you know those disclaimers on the back of parking garage or valet tickets "limiting their liability," well those typically have absolutely no legal effect. It is a simple issue of bailment. They just put it there to deter suits.

Funny story, years ago I was out to dinner witth some friends, they had just travelled to the carib. for the first time, and said they had a great time but only downside was when they returned to the US and went to develop their film (before digital days) the big name store lost their film. So I said no problem I'll sue them for you, he laughed thinking I was joking, but I was serious. My friend said what are you gonna do get me the price of two new rolls of film?

The next day I called up the store's legal department. I told the attorney the issue, he said to me "the receipt has a disclaimer limiting our liability." I said listen, You know thats b.s., you are a bailee. Either make this right or I'll see you in court. he sighed, and said well what do you want? I told him I wanted enough money to send my client on another carib. vacation so he can take new pictures replacing the ones that you lost. I got them enough money to go on a nicer vacation than they went on before, with a little extra spending cash in their pocket too. Cost of litigating, especially when they were absolutely liable and I would have successfully obtained summary judgement, would of exceeded the settlement, even for an institutional litigant.
Excellent!!

I think there are several factors that were key to your success:
1) did not accept "we are not responsible"
2) probably calm = angry people tank negotiations like this by bringing in all the emotion; it probably helped that you called on behalf of someone else so you didn't have the emotions tagging along
3) you knew what you wanted, it was reasonable, and you asked for it

Failing on any one of these items could have ruined the deal. Making it easy for them to say Yes is also extremely helpful.

Very nice demonstration of problem resolution. I hope your friends brought the film from second trip to same place to let them get it right.
 

Clemson Fan

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The next day I called up the store's legal department. I told the attorney the issue, he said to me "the receipt has a disclaimer limiting our liability." I said listen, You know thats b.s., you are a bailee. Either make this right or I'll see you in court. he sighed, and said well what do you want? I told him I wanted enough money to send my client on another carib. vacation so he can take new pictures replacing the ones that you lost. I got them enough money to go on a nicer vacation than they went on before, with a little extra spending cash in their pocket too. Cost of litigating, especially when they were absolutely liable and I would have successfully obtained summary judgement, would of exceeded the settlement, even for an institutional litigant.

And people wonder why the medical costs in the US are so high. The US has 5% of the worlds population, yet 95% of the worlds attorneys. That's fine, but if you don't think stuff like this doesn't drive up costs for everybody, then you're dreaming.

When I was on a Globus tour in Europe recently, the tour director recommended this certain fun activity to do after the tour was over. She said that this activity used to be part of the Globus tour, but "you Americans are funny and sue over everything" so Globus had to drop that certain activity.
 

Passepartout

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The US has 5% of the worlds population, yet 95% of the worlds attorneys. That's fine, but if you don't think stuff like this doesn't drive up costs for everybody, then you're dreaming.

I wonder then, do you feel that if someone is injured by the negligence of another, that they shouldn't seek redress?

I'm all for tort reform unless I'm the one injured.

There are risks in all activities, some of which are to be accepted. In Mexico, if one trips over a sidewalk crack and falls and is injured, then sues the owner of the home/business. Attorneys will hire people to photograph large numbers of people walking safely over the sidewalk crack. Then in court, they say that the litigant is just clumsy and the injury was self inflicted. Or so I have heard.
 

Clemson Fan

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I wonder then, do you feel that if someone is injured by the negligence of another, that they shouldn't seek redress?

I'm all for tort reform unless I'm the one injured.

I believe it's overboard in the US and there's an underlying cost to that. Getting a 5k trip paid for again just due to the loss of a roll of film by probably some $10/hr employee IMO is ridiculous. Sure, the big bad corporations can afford it and the pass through cost to everybody else is minimal, but what if that store was a small mom and pop type of store?

Last year my 8 year old son broke his arm on the school playground when he got shoved off the top of a slide by another boy. I could've easily sued the school or the other boys parents or both, but I don't think that's right. The other boy was very tearful and gave a sincere apology and that was enough for us. My wife and I have never sued anybody in our lives and I'm sure we probably won't unless it's something really egregious.

I guess all those attorneys we have here in the US need to feed themselves somehow.
 
L

laurac260

I believe it's overboard in the US and there's an underlying cost to that. Getting a 5k trip paid for again just due to the loss of a roll of film by probably some $10/hr employee IMO is ridiculous. Sure, the big bad corporations can afford it and the pass through cost to everybody else is minimal, but what if that store was a small mom and pop type of store?

Last year my 8 year old son broke his arm on the school playground when he got shoved off the top of a slide by another boy. I could've easily sued the school or the other boys parents or both, but I don't think that's right. The other boy was very tearful and gave a sincere apology and that was enough for us. My wife and I have never sued anybody in our lives and I'm sure we probably won't unless it's something really egregious.

I guess all those attorneys we have here in the US need to feed themselves somehow.


Not all attorneys are for suing the pants off someone. Part of the reason we have so many LAWyers is because we have so many LAWS. and rules, and regulations. Part of the reason our country doesn't make anything here, too many laws keeping folks from STARTING businesses here. We went from making stuff, to law-ing stuff.
 

Passepartout

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Not all attorneys are for suing the pants off someone.

Just borrowing the sentence, Laura.

Absolutely. Not all- in fact relatively few lawyers are of the 'sue their pants off' type. To my best knowledge, my DW has never sued someone for any sort of personal injury, and I can't EVER remember her ever taking a case on contingency. She practices family law. Estate planning, bankruptcies, Social Security disability claims- after the claimant has been turned down (which is normal) and paid by statute. Adoption, divorces, you get the idea.

There are a couple score of lawyers here, and I'l wager that no more than 3-4 would term themselves 'personal injury' attorneys. That's probably enough in a town of 40ish thousands. One per thousand.

Now, in a country of 300 million, what's that? 30,000 P.I. lawyers. Yup. probably too many.

Reminds me of a story. Once upon a time there was a small town with one lawyer. He didn't have enough work to even keep a secretary. Nothing happened there. Nobody to sue, and nobody went to jail. Then another lawyer moved to the town. Within a year, they had to hire more cops, build a new jail and courthouse, and there was more work than the two lawyers could keep up with.

Oh, well.
 
L

laurac260

Reminds me of a story. Once upon a time there was a small town with one lawyer. He didn't have enough work to even keep a secretary. Nothing happened there. Nobody to sue, and nobody went to jail. Then another lawyer moved to the town. Within a year, they had to hire more cops, build a new jail and courthouse, and there was more work than the two lawyers could keep up with.

Oh, well.

That's kind of a slanderous story, don't you think Jim?

Are you prepared to defend it on a court of law?? :D
 

siesta

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And people wonder why the medical costs in the US are so high. The US has 5% of the worlds population, yet 95% of the worlds attorneys. That's fine, but if you don't think stuff like this doesn't drive up costs for everybody, then you're dreaming.
you couldnt be more misinformed. You are actually perpetuating myth instead of fact.

By your logic: lawyers and malpractice suits are the reason for high medical costs, because when a lawyer sues a Dr. For negligence and wins or settles, the Dr.'s malpractice insurance goes up, thus increasing the cost of care for everyone.

Did you know most physicians malpractice insurance premiums are just a few thousand a year, around $3000-5000 typically? Surely that low of a premium can't justify such high health care costs .... You dont need to have a firm grasp on economics to figure that one out.

Let me give you a primer. When Dr.'s perform a procedure or prescribe medicine, etc, they must advise you of the associated risks, the likelihood of those risks, and viable alternatives to the procedure etc. this is called obtaining the patient's informed consent. Thus, if one of those risks materializes and the patient is left injured, he has consented and can't sue the physician as long as what the physician did was medically necessary, done up to standards, and he adequately informed thhe patient of tthe associated risks. Its only when the Dr. Screws up, does sometthing he didnt need to do, or doesnt adequately inform the patient when he is subject to liability for the injury. This doesnt raise the cost of the procedure for everyone, that price is fixed by market factors.

Thus medical procedure, treatment, prescriptions arent priced based on potential negigence suits, they are priced on the R&D costs to bring them to fruition and the markup to turn a profit(often exhorbitant). If you have a problem with the cost, blame the medical market.

Here is a good website you should explore, ran by a physician, explaining malpractice insurance costs, and how lawyers arent responsble for increased costs of services, and what is to blame (in his opinion, the market, greed, and overpriced services, all interrelated of course).

"When I began writing this website, I had two major goals: provide some transparency to medical costs and dispel some of the many myths about these costs. In a way the second goal may be more important. If most people share a false idea about the cause of a problem then their solutions will be equally misguided. This brings me to the subject of medical malpractice and how much it really costs."

...

"Its easy to see from these*examples that medical malpractice premiums don't have much financial impact on me or most of my colleagues. So why are we always being told that medical malpractice is driving up medical costs?"

http://truecostofhealthcare.org/malpractice

http://truecostofhealthcare.org/conclusion

"It Ain't the Lawyers: Medical Malpractice Costs Have Been Dropping"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-belk/medical-malpractice-costs_b_4171189.html
 
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siesta

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Btw, full disclosure, I am not a personal injury or medical malpractice attorney. I work in a "BigLaw Firm" handling a broad range of litigation disputes. Mainly Intellectual Property (trademark, trade secret, copyright, patent infringement), Complex Commercial Disputes, Antitrust, or RICO cases. My practice mainly deals with large corporations "suing the pants off" (laurac260) other large corporations, often "bet the company" type suits.
 
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Tia

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I had figured out long ago it wasn't tort reform that was needed as CO had it and my insurance costs were still very high...... THANKS for the LINKS.

y.........
"Its easy to see from these*examples that medical malpractice premiums don't have much financial impact on me or most of my colleagues. So why are we always being told that medical malpractice is driving up medical costs?"

http://truecostofhealthcare.org/malpractice

http://truecostofhealthcare.org/conclusion

"It Ain't the Lawyers: Medical Malpractice Costs Have Been Dropping"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-belk/medical-malpractice-costs_b_4171189.html
 

rapmarks

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yes this is usually the point, to deter lawsuits.

Something unrelated but worth mentioning, you know those disclaimers on the back of parking garage or valet tickets "limiting their liability," well those typically have absolutely no legal effect. It is a simple issue of bailment. They just put it there to deter suits.

Funny story, years ago I was out to dinner witth some friends, they had just travelled to the carib. for the first time, and said they had a great time but only downside was when they returned to the US and went to develop their film (before digital days) the big name store lost their film. So I said no problem I'll sue them for you, he laughed thinking I was joking, but I was serious. My friend said what are you gonna do get me the price of two new rolls of film?

The next day I called up the store's legal department. I told the attorney the issue, he said to me "the receipt has a disclaimer limiting our liability." I said listen, You know thats b.s., you are a bailee. Either make this right or I'll see you in court. he sighed, and said well what do you want? I told him I wanted enough money to send my client on another carib. vacation so he can take new pictures replacing the ones that you lost. I got them enough money to go on a nicer vacation than they went on before, with a little extra spending cash in their pocket too. Cost of litigating, especially when they were absolutely liable and I would have successfully obtained summary judgement, would of exceeded the settlement, even for an institutional litigant.

too bad I didn't know you when the film for the new video camera for our wedding and honeymoon turned out to be defective.
 

rapmarks

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a friend of mine went in for a routine procedure and the doctor accidently snipped an artery to her heart. no one in SW Florida would operate on her. she was medivaced to Gainesville and operated on and in a coma for weeks, followed by rehab, and now back home, getting therapy and of course many doctor appointments. Every doctor who sees her chart says I can't believe you are alive.
She was asked are you suing and she said she has called every law firm and none will take her case, Florida law won't allow it. don't know all the details, but it appears it is not soeasy to sue (and win) for malpractice.
 

siesta

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a friend of mine went in for a routine procedure and the doctor accidently snipped an artery to her heart. no one in SW Florida would operate on her. she was medivaced to Gainesville and operated on and in a coma for weeks, followed by rehab, and now back home, getting therapy and of course many doctor appointments. Every doctor who sees her chart says I can't believe you are alive.
She was asked are you suing and she said she has called every law firm and none will take her case, Florida law won't allow it. don't know all the details, but it appears it is not soeasy to sue (and win) for malpractice.
florida is a mess on many accounts. Their tort reform imposed severe limits on contingency fees attorneys can recover. but considering attorneys often put up considerable capital to investigate a case and try it before recovering anything, logically if the expenditure and taking account associated risks exceeds the attorney fee, he will be less inclined to pursue the case. The purpose of the reform was to decrease malpractice suits, I guess its working ... often at the client's expense.
 
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Clemson Fan

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you couldnt be more misinformed. You are actually perpetuating myth instead of fact.

By your logic: lawyers and malpractice suits are the reason for high medical costs, because when a lawyer sues a Dr. For negligence and wins or settles, the Dr.'s malpractice insurance goes up, thus increasing the cost of care for everyone.

Did you know most physicians malpractice insurance premiums are just a few thousand a year, around $3000-5000 typically? Surely that low of a premium can't justify such high health care costs .... You dont need to have a firm grasp on economics to figure that one out.

Let me give you a primer. When Dr.'s perform a procedure or prescribe medicine, etc, they must advise you of the associated risks, the likelihood of those risks, and viable alternatives to the procedure etc. this is called obtaining the patient's informed consent. Thus, if one of those risks materializes and the patient is left injured, he has consented and can't sue the physician as long as what the physician did was medically necessary, done up to standards, and he adequately informed thhe patient of tthe associated risks. Its only when the Dr. Screws up, does sometthing he didnt need to do, or doesnt adequately inform the patient when he is subject to liability for the injury. This doesnt raise the cost of the procedure for everyone, that price is fixed by market factors.

Thus medical procedure, treatment, prescriptions arent priced based on potential negigence suits, they are priced on the R&D costs to bring them to fruition and the markup to turn a profit(often exhorbitant). If you have a problem with the cost, blame the medical market.

Here is a good website you should explore, ran by a physician, explaining malpractice insurance costs, and how lawyers arent responsble for increased costs of services, and what is to blame (in his opinion, the market, greed, and overpriced services, all interrelated of course).

"When I began writing this website, I had two major goals: provide some transparency to medical costs and dispel some of the many myths about these costs. In a way the second goal may be more important. If most people share a false idea about the cause of a problem then their solutions will be equally misguided. This brings me to the subject of medical malpractice and how much it really costs."

...

"Its easy to see from these*examples that medical malpractice premiums don't have much financial impact on me or most of my colleagues. So why are we always being told that medical malpractice is driving up medical costs?"

http://truecostofhealthcare.org/malpractice

http://truecostofhealthcare.org/conclusion

"It Ain't the Lawyers: Medical Malpractice Costs Have Been Dropping"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-belk/medical-malpractice-costs_b_4171189.html

Actually you are misinformed. This is the textbook answer given to explain how tort reform isn't needed or necessary. It's not all about the cost of malpractice insurance. You are correct in stating that the cost of malpractice insurance has very little to do with the high medical costs in the US.

What's MUCH more of a factor of high health insurance costs is the practice of defensive medicine here in the US which is directly related to the extremely litigious environment in the US. In the US over 80% of physicians will face at least one major malpractice lawsuit in their career and the average is over 2 major malpractice lawsuits in their career. Physicians in any other country don't come anywhere close to facing that much litigation.

The practice of defensive medicine where everybody gets million dollar work-ups for even the simplest ailment really drives up the cost of medicine. It's a nearly impossible figure to quantitate, but I can tell you it's VERY significant. Every physician knows of a colleague who was sued for every sort of reason and as such everybody is covering their asses making sure no stone is left unturned and no test is left unordered.

BTW, both my wife and I are physicians. My malpractice premiums are 13k a year and I have yet to be sued although statistically speaking I'm sure I'll probably get my chance to experience that joy. My wife is currently in the process of being named in her first lawsuit. Unfortunately it's really mentally wearing on her a great deal and she's had many sleepless nights over it. I won't go into the details of the case, but IMO it's just a pure money grab. We've both had many sleepless nights worrying how our patients are going to do, but this stress on her is different and in many ways worse. I've seen it change the way she practices medicine from a practical and evidence based approach to a defensive approach of ordering every test under the sun and consulting every specialist she can think of.
 

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Actually you are misinformed. This is the textbook answer given to explain how tort reform isn't needed or necessary. It's not all about the cost of malpractice insurance. You are correct in stating that the cost of malpractice insurance has very little to do with the high medical costs in the US.

What's MUCH more of a factor of high health insurance costs is the practice of defensive medicine here in the US which is directly related to the extremely litigious environment in the US. In the US over 80% of physicians will face at least one major malpractice lawsuit in their career and the average is over 2 major malpractice lawsuits in their career. Physicians in any other country don't come anywhere close to facing that much litigation.

The practice of defensive medicine where everybody gets million dollar work-ups for even the simplest ailment really drives up the cost of medicine. It's a nearly impossible figure to quantitate, but I can tell you it's VERY significant. Every physician knows of a colleague who was sued for every sort of reason and as such everybody is covering their asses making sure no stone is left unturned and no test is left unordered.

BTW, both my wife and I are physicians. My malpractice premiums are 13k a year and I have yet to be sued although statistically speaking I'm sure I'll probably get my chance to experience that joy. My wife is currently in the process of being named in her first lawsuit. Unfortunately it's really mentally wearing on her a great deal and she's had many sleepless nights over it. I won't go into the details of the case, but IMO it's just a pure money grab. We've both had many sleepless nights worrying how our patients are going to do, but this stress on her is different and in many ways worse. I've seen it change the way she practices medicine from a practical and evidence based approach to a defensive approach of ordering every test under the sun and consulting every specialist she can think of.
I'm sorry Dr., but you are conflating the issues, neither of which can blame the legal profession. There are two issues raised here. First is the PRICE of medical services, second is the overall COST of services. The former is the real problem, not the latter, because the latter is in actuality dependent on the former. Allow me to explain.

The PRICE of a medical procedure, or prescription drug, or checkup is the real vice here. This prevents people from obtaining necessary and affordable care. This is in no way significantly affected by the legal profession (as you yourself conceded in your previous post). This is solely due to R&D costs, market factors, and unfortunately most of all greed. There is no reason a trip to the ER to get bandaged should cost a $1000 dollars. Quite frankly, there is no reason an MRI should costs thousands of dollars. The company's making these machines sell them to hospitals for anywhere from $250,000-$1,000,000. The markup is astronomical. The hospital in turn marks up the cost of the procedures, again usually exhorbitant. There is a reason MRI's and other procedures in this country are more expensive then other 1st world countries, the price is higher!

Why an MRI costs $1,080 in America and $280 in France

"There is a simple reason health care in the United States costs more than it does anywhere else: The prices are higher."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-mri-costs-1080-in-america-and-280-in-france/

Now to the next issue. The overall COST of medical services. This issue can give a little more credence to your example of Dr's practicing defensive medicine because they are afraid of being sued. But quite frankly, when you look at the facts, this is a hollow argument. Let me explain for the layman, which I'm sure (hope) you are already aware.

Whenever a Dr. requests a study, such as a CAT scan, MRI, etc., he doesn't automatically get it. It must be pre-approved by the patient's insurance provider. The requested study is applied to the clinical guidelines to make sure that A) the study is deemed medically necessary, and B) the proper workup has been done prior to its request. For example, if a patient comes in with back pain and you request a procedure for him, absent any acute injury, the insurance company will require a proper workup, i.e. a physical exam, xray, a trial of physical therapy, etc. before a study is approved. Thus, when Dr.'s order frivolous studies (either for fear of being sued or because they are just lousy Dr.'s), or prematurely order studies, they often get denied. In fact, the vast majority of requested studies get denied. This does NOT increase the cost of medical care, because those unnecessary studies are not approved by the insurance company, who has a financial interest in only approving what is medically necessary, and thus they are never performed. Therefore the high overall COST of medical services is not due to the legal profession, again it is due to the aggregate PRICE of the medical services themselves.

Dr.'s don't mind. They have covered their behinds by ordering all the study's they can think of, and the insurance company is the one who has denied it. (Typically third party review companies made up of independent physicians conduct the review, because the ordering physician wants everything he asks for, and insurance company typically wants to deny everything).

What is really repulsive which highlights how greedy Dr.'s (who own their own facilities and equipment) and hospitals are: when an insured patient obtains care, the Dr. or hospital will charge the insurance company less then if the patient were paying out of pocket because he is uninsured! That to me is a despicable practice. Again, all about maximizing that profit.

So again, you really are perpetuating myth here. The real culprit of why medical services cost so much is the PRICE. When everyone with their hand in the pot expects to make an exhorbitant profit (hospitals, bigpharma, medical device manufacturers etc.), and when Dr.'s, surgeons in particular, are commanding a high 6 figure salary, there is no wonder the price will reflect that.

I have no problem with capitalism, but at least be aware of the real culprit, and stop using attorneys as your scapegoat.

Btw, with a med mal premium of $13k, you are obviously in a high risk field. You are either an ER Dr, a surgeon, oby/gyn, or something of the sort (which typically fall between $12k-$20k). Your premium is more then 2-4x what a general practioners would be. Again, as you conceded, that is not affecting the PRICE of medical services.
 
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I'm sorry Dr., but you are conflating the issues, neither of which can blame the legal profession. There are two issues raised here. First is the PRICE of medical services, second is the overall COST of services. The former is the real problem, not the latter, because the latter is in actuality dependent on the former. Allow me to explain.

The PRICE of a medical procedure, or prescription drug, or checkup is the real vice here. This prevents people from obtaining necessary and affordable care. This is in no way significantly affected by the legal profession (as you yourself conceded in your previous post). This is solely due to R&D costs, market factors, and unfortunately most of all greed. There is no reason a trip to the ER to get bandaged should cost a $1000 dollars. Quite frankly, there is no reason an MRI should costs thousands of dollars. The company's making these machines sell them to hospitals for anywhere from $250,000-$1,000,000. The markup is astronomical. The hospital in turn marks up the cost of the procedures, again usually exhorbitant. There is a reason MRI's and other procedures in this country are more expensive then other 1st world countries, the price is higher!

Why an MRI costs $1,080 in America and $280 in France

"There is a simple reason health care in the United States costs more than it does anywhere else: The prices are higher."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-mri-costs-1080-in-america-and-280-in-france/

Now to the next issue. The overall COST of medical services. This issue can give a little more credence to your example of Dr's practicing defensive medicine because they are afraid of being sued. But quite frankly, when you look at the facts, this is a hollow argument. Let me explain for the layman, which I'm sure (hope) you are already aware.

Whenever a Dr. requests a study, such as a CAT scan, MRI, etc., he doesn't automatically get it. It must be pre-approved by the patient's insurance provider. The requested study is applied to the clinical guidelines to make sure that A) the study is necessary, and B) the proper workup has been done prior to its request. For example, if a patient comes in with back pain and you request a procedure for him, absent any acute injury, the insurance company will require a proper workup, i.e. a physical exam, xray, a trial of physical therapy, etc. before a study is approved. Thus, when Dr.'s order frivolous studies (either for fear of being sued or because they are just lousy Dr.'s), or prematurely order studies, they often get denied. In fact, the vast majority of requested studies get denied. This does NOT increase the cost of medical care, because those unnecessary studies are not approved by the insurance company, who has a financial interest in only approving what is medically necessary, and thus they are never performed. Thus the high overall COST of medical services is not due to the legal profession, again it is due to the aggregate PRICE of the medical services themselves.

Dr.'s don't mind. They have covered their behinds by ordering all the study's they can think of, and the insurance company is the one who has denied it. (Typically third party review companies made up of independent physicians conduct the review, because the ordering physician wants everything he asks for, and insurance company typically wants to deny everything).

So again, you really are perpetuating myth here. The real culprit of why medical services cost so much is the PRICE. When everyone with their hand in the pot expect to make a profit (hospitals, bigpharma, medical device manufacturers etc.), and when Dr.'s, surgeons in particular, are commanding a high 6 figure salary, there is no wonder the price will reflect that.

I have no problem with capitalism, but at least be aware of the real culprit, and stop using attorneys as your scapegoat.

Btw, with a med mal premium of $13k, you are obviously in a high risk field. You are either an ER Dr, a surgeon, oby/gyn, or something of the sort (which typically fall between $12k-$20k). Your premium is more then twice what a general practioners would be.

You're excellent at arguing your position. I'll give you that. You chose the right profession given your skillset.

The whole argument you present for the layman that defensive medicine isn't practiced in the US because of insurance reviews and that it really doesn't significantly affect the overall cost of medicine is complete bs. For example, when I have a younger patient come in with a new classic migraine with aura (I'm an Ophthalmologist) I'll get an MRI on the remote chance it may be a brain tumor. I've never had an insurance company deny me a test that I've wanted to order. All you have to do is put down a few key words (in this case r/o brain tumor) and the test is approved. Medications are a different story and they will push you to generics which I'm fine with in most cases.

Out of all those MRI's on that one subset of patients, I've never diagnosed a brain tumor. Of course, I have found some other incidental findings (cyst, etc.) where the radiologist will then right on cue "defensively" recommend yearly serial MRI's to r/o any progression of whatever incidentaloma was discovered in the first place and the cycle continues. Mind you, outside the US an MRI on this type of patient would've never been ordered in the first place.

For the most part, I'm pretty happy with the way things are in the US. However, I do realize that the US does have the vast majority of the worlds attorneys compared to the percentage of the worlds population. I also realize that well over 95% of our elected officials are attorneys so I don't expect anything to change in my lifetime.

To say that having so many attorneys in the US has little to no affect on the cost of business and medicine in the US is hogwash. The legal profession as a whole has put forth a very concerted effort to produce talking points and arguments, like many you've presented, pointing the blame elsewhere. Yeah, I get the game.

Its really very simple, all of those vultures need to be fed.
 
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