• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Shame on the PCC's!

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,644
Reaction score
936
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Last night I was bidding on a couple of summer OBX weeks on eBay. Yeah the bargain basement of timeshare resales where so many weeks go at around a dollar, and at the low time of the year for their prices. I thought I might get a couple of weeks I could make some money on renting through the local timeshare rental / resale specialist.

Both weeks went over $3.000 each, certainly still less than they are worth, but not the huge bargain I had hoped for with eBay. So I let them go.

But that got me to thinking. Both sellers were outlets for PCC's. That meant that is each case some poor sap was conned into paying around $3,000 to have a PCC take the week off their hands, and then the PCC turned around and sold it for $3,000, a hefty $6.000 profit. And undoubtedly, in the presentation in some motel meeting room, the suckers were told that timeshares do not sell on eBay, that they are listed at $1 and get no takers.

We really need to demand some action from our law enforcement officials to put a stop to the PCC frauds.

Oh, and I missed the fun of making the PCC sellers follow North Carolina law on the closings!
 

vacationhopeful

TUG Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
12,760
Reaction score
1,699
Points
498
Location
Northeast USA
You still might have a chance. PCCs I thought were reporting that 1 in 4 eBay buyers do not complete the deal. So, you still have a 50% chance of getting that Second Chance email.;)
 

sui

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
125
Reaction score
0
Points
226
How did they find the owners? Will I be able to get a list of owners of the timeshare I'd like to buy and send out bulk mail offering to buy it for free?
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,644
Reaction score
936
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
How did they find the owners? Will I be able to get a list of owners of the timeshare I'd like to buy and send out bulk mail offering to buy it for free?

I am not sure how the PCC's get their mailing lists. Some have suspected exchange companies. Others think they compile them from public records. However, they get their lists, they mass mail their postcards, inviting suckers to a meeting at a local motel with the implication they are going to buy their week. It is only after the spiel that they realize the PCC expects them to pay for the PCC taking it off their hands.

Resorts will not give you the lists. Even if you own at the resort, you can legally get the list but not use it for solicitation. You can only use it to argue positions on issues or candidates within the HOA.
 

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
22,096
Reaction score
7,678
Points
1,099
Location
Florida
resort owners lists are readily available in the industry....I get calls every week asking if I want to buy some.

some of the "lead generation" companies are even ARDA members if im not mistaken
 

Jennie

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2005
Messages
1,808
Reaction score
3
Points
398
Were there multiple bidders fighting over the weeks? Or one determined buyer on each auction? Sometimes a newbie who has only been exposed to a hugely over-priced sales pitch at the resort (or a resale agent near the resort) does some basic Internet homework and thinks the Ebay price is the "deal of the century".

Last month I lost out on two such auctions where the only other bidder seemed to be an Ebay first-timer who was willing to go way over what the average week at that particular resort usually goes for. I was almost hoping it was a "shill" situation and that the week would be re-listed. But it didn't happen. I guess it was my lucky day. I need another timeshare like a hole in the head :rolleyes:
 

Tia

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
3,282
Reaction score
446
Points
468
.......
Resorts will not give you the lists. Even if you own at the resort, you can legally get the list but not use it for solicitation. You can only use it to argue positions on issues or candidates within the HOA.


Own a resort in the USVI where our slate was refused the owners list to mail out our election positions :mad: . We were running against the current board, and the management company went along with this. Management offered to have our slate give them our letter, then after currently elected boards review, mail it at our cost :annoyed: . They communicated the current board is responsible for communications to owners, we felt it was their way to get a hold of our letter to control and respond to our message.
 
Last edited:

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,644
Reaction score
936
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Own a resort in the USVI where our slate was refused the owners list to mail out our election positions :mad: . We were running against the current board, and the management company went along with this. Management offered to have our slate give them our letter, then after currently elected boards review, mail it at our cost :annoyed: . They communicated the current board is responsible for communications to owners, we felt it was their way to get a hold of our letter to control and respond to our message.

While this is a seperate issue from the PCC shananigans, it is an important one. In Europe, many (most?) membership lists are restricted in the name of "privacy" but the real winner of that is insider control. A few states in the US may play the same game. In most states, however, the non-profit corporation laws clearly give members the right to obtain the list within a certain period before the annual meeting for purpose of election related communications. Even so, I have known of cases of management companies stonewalling on this. Sometimes a lawyer has had to get involved and threaten them with a lawsuit to get them to comply with the law. I am not certain about the USVI, but the first place I would look is in the non-profit corporation laws. There was a huge battle to kick Fairfield / Wyndham out of Bluebeards Castle in the USVI, and a veteran of that battle may be able to share more information specific to USVI.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,644
Reaction score
936
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Yes, there were multiple bidders (different in many cases) in both auctions.

Were there multiple bidders fighting over the weeks? Or one determined buyer on each auction? Sometimes a newbie who has only been exposed to a hugely over-priced sales pitch at the resort (or a resale agent near the resort) does some basic Internet homework and thinks the Ebay price is the "deal of the century".

Last month I lost out on two such auctions where the only other bidder seemed to be an Ebay first-timer who was willing to go way over what the average week at that particular resort usually goes for. I was almost hoping it was a "shill" situation and that the week would be re-listed. But it didn't happen. I guess it was my lucky day. I need another timeshare like a hole in the head :rolleyes:
 

Egret1986

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
4,021
Reaction score
560
Points
499
Location
Coastal Southeast Virginia
I was one of those other bidders on both auctions, and I didn't have the winning bids

Yes, there were multiple bidders (different in many cases) in both auctions.

I actually put in a snipe on each auction for higher amounts than I normally would put in.....still not high enough. I am surprised sometimes by the weeks the PCCs have up for bid and that some poor person actually paid to have the week taken off of their hands. I've bought several of those unbelievable weeks. Good for me, but I do find it sad that someone was so misguided or whatever to fall into the PCC web.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was another TUGGER or two bidding on those two auctions. I know of at least two others that have a definite fondness for OBX weeks. :D
 

AFARR

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
340
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Allentown Area, PA
BIS Duck 3 Br wk 29?

I was watching that one...figured it would go over $3k on it.

I was also watching a 2 Br. Wk 30 in Duck that suddenly ended early...only had $51 in bids. I think the "Iluvmytime" (sister/mirror seller to 'cherishthetime') sold it off the auction site. Happened with a BIS Kitty Hawk week a couple of months ago.

Does seem like the Summer weeks go for a reasonable sum (for the seller) on the OBX.

AFARR


Edited...Yep, I'm one of the ones with the fondness for OBX. Wasn't going to bid (or at least not when it got that high), but do watch the weeks that crop up....I got my Sea Scape week from a TUG'r ($1200 for a Wk 33, non L/O), figured that a 4th week was good with the low M/Fs that Sea Scape has. If I found a better summer week, I'd have to get rid of one or two of the pink (37, 38 or 39) wks I have.
 
Last edited:

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,644
Reaction score
936
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
resort owners lists are readily available in the industry....I get calls every week asking if I want to buy some.

some of the "lead generation" companies are even ARDA members if im not mistaken

The real question is - Where do they get the lists?
 

Tia

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
3,282
Reaction score
446
Points
468
How much to they sell an owners list for?
 

Timeshare Von

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
7,031
Reaction score
1,637
Points
599
Location
Milwaukee, WI
Resorts Owned
Wyndham (77k points at Myrtle Beach/Westwinds)
How much to they sell an owners list for?

Who knows . . . every company/organization has their own price.
 

JMAESD84

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
609
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Location
New Hampshire
It is possible to directly contact the (PCC fueled) power sellers on eBay to sell your timeshare directly on a commission basis. I haven't done this myself so I don't no the exact terms available but I'm sure it's not the pay us $3000 that you would expect from the PCC meeting at your local hotel.

They put together quality listings on eBay, handle closings and have high feedback ratings for bidder confidence.

If you've got a quality week and want to dispose of it quickly without the hassle of doing it yourself.
 

tombo

Tug Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
3,224
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Location
Mississippi (but a Bama fan)
The PCC's charge a very high price, but they do provide a service and to some people it is worth it. If they can dump their week for $3000 and save $1000 a year in MF's for the 4 or 5 years they would have it listed for sale on some web site, then they will be ahead in the long run.

We know on TUG about e-bay, Craig's list, TUG, Redweek, etc as places to sell unwanted weeks. Even with that knowledge some weeks will not sell for $1. I have a Christmas beach week that would have sold for a couple of thousand 4 years ago that has been for sale for $1 for over a year. The MF's are reasonable so I deposit it every year hoping to sell it, but the Redweek ad has had to be paid for the second year and I have paid 2 mf's so far on a week I no longerwant.

I have couple of other weeks I am about to try and sell that will not be easy to sell either in this market. I purchased all of these weeks (resale) to use personally or rent to subsidize MF's on other weeks I used personally, but the flooded market has lowered rental prices on many of my weeks to where they are not easy to rent and often rent at prices that are barely more than MF's.

So now the worst timeshare rental market ever has combined with escalating MF's and the worst resale market to make owning not nearly as attractive as it was and selling almost impossible for many locations. For some paying money to be done with it is worth it.

Anyone who has purchased a new car and traded in their old one has done the same thing. The dealership will not give you what you could sell your trade in for if you sold it yourself. The dealership will get your car for wholesale and sell it on their lot retail for 1000's in profit over what they gave you for the car you owned. You could buy the new car and sell yours yourself and make a lot more money, but it is easier and quicker to let them take it off of your hands. For many fooling with phone calls, tire kickers, test drive, haggling, and having an extra car in the driveway is not worth the couple of thousand in additional money they could get if they sold the car themselves. For many getting rid of the unwanted timeshare in one easy transaction is worth the fee the PCC's charge.

People who use PCC's either don't know how to get rid of their weeks, or do not want to spend the time and effort necessary to get rid of it. The PCC's provide a service for a fee. Some of the weeks I see listed I wouldn't have transferred into my name for $3000 because I wouldn't use them, couldn't rent them, and would have a very hard time selling them. Some weeks/resorts/locations are very simply white elephants. Paying a PCC in many of these cases might be their only chance of getting rid of the week in a timely manner.

PCC's run a business providing a service, and they do it for profit like all businesses. Some weeks they sell and make a profit on, some they keep and pay MF's on for years eroding their profit. They have employees, salesmen, closing/transfer fees, etc. The $3000 fee is not all profit. I don't work for a PCC, nor will I pay one to sell my weeks, but I don't think what they do is any more of a ripoff than HGVC, Disney, Westgate, Bluegreen Marriott, etc, etc, etc selling weeks/points for $25000 or more to make profit on the identical week/points that the buyer could buy for $5000 or less resale. Some people will pay more for the ease and security of buying directly from the developer just like some will pay a hefty fee to a PCC just be done with their timeshare week in one quick, easy, painless transaction. Some are uneducated and buy from the developer or sell using a PCC because they don't know any better. In either case they are doing a legal business transaction where the developer and/or the PCC make huge profits. Unethical? Maybe. Illegal? Nope. JMHO.
 
Last edited:

funtime

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
2,388
Reaction score
144
Points
424
Location
Dallas
Thank you for the balanced viewpoint

Thanks for the balanced viewpoint. We live in a free society. If someone wants to take the risk of loading up on doubtful assets and travel all over the country to do so, let him make what ever profit the auction market brings. And the auction results are diminishing fast. The Postcard companies exist because they find enough customers willing to pay for their service. However a $6,000 return is not profit. The mailing costs are huge, and there are travel costs and salaries. If you step back you would probably realize that you would not want to be in their business.
 

timeos2

Tug Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Lifetime Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Messages
11,183
Reaction score
5
Points
36
Location
Rochester, NY
Not recommended

Thanks for the balanced viewpoint. We live in a free society. If someone wants to take the risk of loading up on doubtful assets and travel all over the country to do so, let him make what ever profit the auction market brings. And the auction results are diminishing fast. The Postcard companies exist because they find enough customers willing to pay for their service. However a $6,000 return is not profit. The mailing costs are huge, and there are travel costs and salaries. If you step back you would probably realize that you would not want to be in their business.

And an even bigger issue is that they do not take title to the week(s) after charging the owner thousands. Instead most get POA (Power of Attorney) to allow them to offer the week(s) for sale - what if that sale never occurs? And given the negative value of the type of weeks that are likely to be involved that is a very real possibility - no sale! SO guess what? A year or two down the road, out $3-$4 thousand dollars and supposedly free of obligation they no longer wanted they find out they are still the owner, still have fees due & a possible credit hit or worse!

Like so many of these borderline operations there are no guarantees of what will happen and virtually no way to force the people being paid big money to actually do as they say they will. And there are plenty of examples of that exact negative outcome around. Not something I'd want to risk nor recommend to anyone.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,644
Reaction score
936
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
The real problem is the misrepresentations that are endemic in the PCC world. They tell everyone that their week is worthless, even if it is a high value week that they know will bring four figures on eBay, like these summer OBX weeks. There is only one word for this behavior, and that is FRAUD. Well, there is another term in the criminal law, and that is Obtaining Property by False Pretenses, and that is a felony.

There are lots of other lies in their spiels, such as how someone can write off their loss on their income tax. Well, no you cannot, and if you try and get caught by the IRS, it means trouble for you not the PCC fraudsters who are telling the lies.

They also talk about ''burdening your heirs'' which again is pure horsehockey.

I would like to see some law enforcement agencies sending in some people wearing wires and getting the goods to send these PCC fraudsters off to prison where they belong.
 

theo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
9,032
Reaction score
2,268
Points
648
Location
New England Coast
The ongoing, unsolved mystery...

The real question is - Where do they get the lists?

Until recently, I had one of those 3 year RTU "leases" for RCI Points, now expired and not renewed.
I never used it (my own fault) and I ultimately gave the points away for free to numerous TUG members.
The underlying facility for the points lease was Club Trinidad in California.

Hardly a week goes by that I don't get a call (always different names and always different numbers on the caller ID to my unlisted, unpublished phone number) specifically asking "do I want to sell" this particular, specific Club Trinidad ownership (which, ironically, was never actually an "ownership" in the first place and, accordingly, could never have been "sold" to anyone, at any time, for any price).

I receive other calls on occasion referencing other very specific (always RCI affiliated) facilities at which I owned fixed weeks in the past (...but sold off anywhere from 3-5 years ago)! I have never received any such unsolicited call regarding a resort not affilated with RCI (...and yes, I have now or have had in the past several ownerships at facilities which were / are only affiliated with Interval International).

In short, RCI (or more specifically, entrepreneurial rogue employees therein; not an authorized "corporate" action) has always been and still remains my own primary suspect for these unexplained releases of owner information. That said, the supporting evidence is admittedly weak and circumstantial. I will also readily admit that my disdain and contempt for RCI in general might taint my objectivity. But who else would have access to owned resort info for places at which I haven't been an owner in years (...but which would still appear as "ownerships" within old RCI accounts from which those long gone ownerships were never removed)? :shrug:
 
Last edited:

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,644
Reaction score
936
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Until recently, I had one of those 3 year RTU "leases" for RCI Points, now expired and not renewed.
I never used it (my own fault) and I ultimately gave the points away for free to numerous TUG members.
The underlying facility for the points lease was Club Trinidad in California.

Hardly a week goes by that I don't get a call (always different names and always different numbers on the caller ID to my unlisted, unpublished phone number) specifically asking "do I want to sell" this particular, specific Club Trinidad ownership (which, ironically, was never actually an "ownership" in the first place and, accordingly, could never have been "sold" to anyone, at any time, for any price).

I receive other calls on occasion referencing other very specific (always RCI affiliated) facilities at which I owned fixed weeks in the past (...but sold off anywhere from 3-5 years ago)! I have never received any such unsolicited call regarding a resort not affilated with RCI (...and yes, I have now or have had in the past several ownerships at facilities which were / are only affiliated with Interval International).

In short, RCI (or more specifically, entrepreneurial rogue employees therein; not an authorized "corporate" action) has always been and still remains my own primary suspect for these unexplained releases of owner information. That said, the supporting evidence is admittedly weak and circumstantial. I will also readily admit that my disdain and contempt for RCI in general might taint my objectivity. But who else would have access to owned resort info for places at which I haven't been an owner in years (...but which would still appear as "ownerships" within old RCI accounts from which those long gone ownerships were never removed)? :shrug:

Curious! Either RCI must have its own Bradley Manning or corporate is putting more of its assets on the rental block, like they do exchange deposits.
 

T_R_Oglodyte

TUG Lifetime Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
16,117
Reaction score
8,066
Points
1,048
Location
Belly-View, WA
I can't imagine that there isn't a black market in for timeshare owner names. I primarily suspect rogue employees at resorts, developers, and exchange companies who see a chance to make a few bucks by downloading information.

Whenever we get a call it's always about one specific timeshare that we own, which I have never listed anywhere. The folks are calling are totally oblivious to other timeshare ownerships.

In that case I'm pretty sure the owner information was leaked out of the resort; if it came from an exchange they would have taken down the information on other resorts we own at as well.
 

irish

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
1,240
Reaction score
1
Points
398
Location
NEW YORK
okay, don't scream at me PLEASE..this is JMO. while i don"t necessarily LIKE the way the pccs do business. they do provide a way for the owners who aren't savy enough to list on ebay themselves/ know the websites that are low in cost to list there "WHITE ELEPHANT" for sale..(not everyone knows about tug) the owners FINALLY get relief from paying the yearly m/f's. i mean really, are they any worse than a developer(salesman)lying to you at a presentation and charging you $$$$$ for a WEEK of vacation and yearly m/f's?. sure they make money on both ends of the deal. but the owner gets relief and the buyer gets a bargain. win/win..
 

STEVIE

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
960
Reaction score
2
Points
378
Location
plainville, CT.
Irish, I totally agree with you. In this economy there are many people who need to be rid of their time share obligation of yearly maintenance fees. Paying an up front fee may be the only way out of the burden they feel. Sue
 

timeos2

Tug Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Lifetime Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Messages
11,183
Reaction score
5
Points
36
Location
Rochester, NY
Unfortunately they aren't altruistic or even just honest

okay, don't scream at me PLEASE..this is JMO. while i don"t necessarily LIKE the way the pccs do business. they do provide a way for the owners who aren't savy enough to list on ebay themselves/ know the websites that are low in cost to list there "WHITE ELEPHANT" for sale..(not everyone knows about tug) the owners FINALLY get relief from paying the yearly m/f's. i mean really, are they any worse than a developer(salesman)lying to you at a presentation and charging you $$$$$ for a WEEK of vacation and yearly m/f's?. sure they make money on both ends of the deal. but the owner gets relief and the buyer gets a bargain. win/win..

IF they actually sell the week(s) or took over the fees I would agree with you. But if you read what they do is make a "best effort" to sell - no enforceable guarantee whatsoever. The poor owner that thinks they have paid their last fees (and plenty of them) to be done with their ownership may find out instead that they paid thousands and are still the legal owners with fees due!

These are not principled organizations trying to help out poor owners but groups looking to make a BIG profit for virtually no effort - and if they can't do it they walkaway with their cash and couldn't care less about the owner they took from and left hanging.

The vast majority are just another timeshare scam ripping off owners again.
 
Top