Equity based destination club

Bourne · Jan 14, 2008

PerryM said:
HCC is living way beyond its means (Hell, the entire DC industry is) – it’s mortgaged to the hilt. If HCC paid cash for the condos then they could easily make it up in volume. Right now HCC offers a Private Membership for $70k – get 35 nights and pay $9k in MF. I’m assuming this is for a 1/8 share.

That relates to $560k or 50% leveraged about $1 M condos.

If $560k is mortgaged in a 30 year loan at 8% (highly risky and jumbo loan) then the monthly mortgage is $4,100 or $49k per year. The MF of 9k * 8 members = $72k or $23k per year or about $2k per month for taxes, replacement reserves, management fees, and housekeeping.

You may call 50% leverage as living beyond its means. To me, 50% leverage in DC is a reason to sign up when the industry norm is 20-30%. Anyone in commercial real estate will confirm that 50% leverage is a pretty safe bet.

We may have a difference of opinion here.

PerryM said:
There isn’t any room for even the slightest hiccup in this business plan.
So I agree, the current HCC business plan is drowning in debt. They need to switch to 100% cash and a $560k condo and their solvency is much more assured. Then they could offer 80% back of Current membership fees - and let the members participate in real estate appreciation.

Again, 50% leverage is not drowning in debt.

Regarding the example you provided, I think you missed my point completely.

A DC will only switch to 100% cash to market itself as a 100% equity based plan. Once it becomes a 100% equity club, it has to market the member's participation in real estate appreciation. Once it starts doing that, it can only market to Accredited Investors i.e. a person with documented $1Mil net worth or 200K+ annual income. To me, that is not mass market and sales volume will actually fall down. Bell Havens is a classic example of this situation.

http://www.sec.gov/answers/accred.htm

Here are some other points...
The calculations provided are very simplistic. A DC cannot run as a non-profit.

Even the best run Equity based club has its risks. To take an example,
-A $2M home added to the club is based on 10 full members joining with $200K each.
-Add 10 members and the price of membership goes up by approx 10%. A member leaving at this point expects $220K in return.
-The moment a $2M home is added to the club, it loses 20% of its value.( 15% management and 5% closing)
-An underlying asset of $1.6M has a liability of $2.2M at the point of addition.

To drive my point home, An underlying asset of $1.6M has a liability of $2.2M at the point of addition. . And BH is a well run company.

Tedpilot · Jan 14, 2008

Perry - Curious, I assume that you are making assumptions about the debt structure, if any, at HCC or any other club there is without known disclosure, correct? I say this because you do not know for certain how they have financed or purchased the units and/or the terms of the leases.

What if it was done my way? X qualified investors bought Y stock into an emerging DC. The DC takes the cash to buy property, start an office, and partially leverage property. The DC is actually a share-held company unwielded by a single entity other than the board of directors. Additionally, that DC then takes initial and annual fees from members to then run the company and provide the shareholders dividends and acquire additional property. Would it not then be safe to say that such a mechanism could exist for DCs and they are actually in good financial health? Could it be that if a DC was strong and growing it's stock would increase in value surpassing the rate at which real-estate incerases because of an increase in membership and the ability to buy more property at no cost to teh shareholders? I think so.

I view DCs very differently than most. Simplistically they are clubs, and only clubs from a user standpoint less a few which throw a few bones worth of equity. I view them as businesses and nothing more. Their product is vacation property and they service it well. The properties are probably heavily depreciated on a given tax year like machinery or equipment at any other company, financed only to the extent to which stay afloat and most certainly have significant up-front investors that deeply off-set maximized mortgages.

TarheelTraveler · Jan 14, 2008

In response to the question on Crescendo, I've been very happy. Great houses that are even better than the pictures, great service, and experienced management with extensive real estate and hospitality experience. Only negative is a somewhat limited number of houses currently, although this is going to change significantly in the coming months.

As an example, we're in Punta Mita, Mexico right now. Have a chef cooked breakfast every morning. House overlooks the infinity edge pool, fairway and ocean in an incredible resort with Four Seasons golf and beach club membership included. Concierge is great. She showed us around the entire resort and was available to answer questions and make arrangements at any time. Went to the local village pharmacy today to get our daughter some medicine. Glad we didn't have to try to tackle that with very limited knowledge of Spanish. Have a local U.S. number that people can call and free long distance to U.S. and Canada on a Vonage phone. The house is professionally decorated with high quality and durable furniture. Plenty of DVDs, board games and video games are in the house.

Bourne · Jan 14, 2008

TarheelTraveler said:
In response to the question on Crescendo, I've been very happy. Great houses that are even better than the pictures, great service, and experienced management with extensive real estate and hospitality experience. Only negative is a somewhat limited number of houses currently, although this is going to change significantly in the coming months.

As I understand, Crescendo works like a REIT. Is a possible merger or takeover in the works...

Steamboat Bill · Jan 14, 2008

Bourne said:
As I understand, Crescendo works like a REIT. Is a possible merger or takeover in the works...

There are some rumors in the air, but due to NDAs...nobody will confirm anything.

Either way, if it happens it will strengthen both clubs.

travelguy · Jan 15, 2008

Tedpilot said:
Perry - Curious, I assume that you are making assumptions about the debt structure, if any, at HCC or any other club there is without known disclosure, correct? I say this because you do not know for certain how they have financed or purchased the units and/or the terms of the leases.

What if it was done my way? X qualified investors bought Y stock into an emerging DC. The DC takes the cash to buy property, start an office, and partially leverage property. The DC is actually a share-held company unwielded by a single entity other than the board of directors. Additionally, that DC then takes initial and annual fees from members to then run the company and provide the shareholders dividends and acquire additional property. Would it not then be safe to say that such a mechanism could exist for DCs and they are actually in good financial health? Could it be that if a DC was strong and growing it's stock would increase in value surpassing the rate at which real-estate incerases because of an increase in membership and the ability to buy more property at no cost to teh shareholders? I think so.

Ted,

Excellent post! I've grown weary of responding to the several posters who have will not sign NDAs and have not done significant due diligence yet continue to post very uninformed and inaccurate information on DCs. Thank you for making this post of how a "hypothetical" DC might work.

PerryM · Jan 15, 2008

Keeping up with the Jones is dangerous...

Tedpilot said:
Perry - Curious, I assume that you are making assumptions about the debt structure, if any, at HCC or any other club there is without known disclosure, correct? I say this because you do not know for certain how they have financed or purchased the units and/or the terms of the leases.

What if it was done my way? X qualified investors bought Y stock into an emerging DC. The DC takes the cash to buy property, start an office, and partially leverage property. The DC is actually a share-held company unwielded by a single entity other than the board of directors. Additionally, that DC then takes initial and annual fees from members to then run the company and provide the shareholders dividends and acquire additional property. Would it not then be safe to say that such a mechanism could exist for DCs and they are actually in good financial health? Could it be that if a DC was strong and growing it's stock would increase in value surpassing the rate at which real-estate incerases because of an increase in membership and the ability to buy more property at no cost to teh shareholders? I think so.

I view DCs very differently than most. Simplistically they are clubs, and only clubs from a user standpoint less a few which throw a few bones worth of equity. I view them as businesses and nothing more. Their product is vacation property and they service it well. The properties are probably heavily depreciated on a given tax year like machinery or equipment at any other company, financed only to the extent to which stay afloat and most certainly have significant up-front investors that deeply off-set maximized mortgages.

Much of what we do here, on this timeshare chat room, is to look at inputs and outputs and come up the strategies used by developers/exchange companies. Many of these are trade secrets and no one but employees know how it really works. I, personally, enjoy reverse engineering systems.

It’s just plain old math – HCC says it buys $1 M condos and only $500k of cash rolls in so $500k of borrowing takes place. If, as in your hypothetical example, the condos are financed with stock then that is certainly a way to get cash, but the deeds are owned by the stock holders and they expect a hefty return. I guess they would stick it out longer than a bank in case the DC has problems attracting new members and continuing the income stream.

Whether it’s a bank or stock investors the result is the same – miss a few mortgage payments and there will be hell to pay. I’m guessing a 20 – 30 year note is involved.

This, to me, is doing business in a condo worth twice as much as can be supported by the members – the members won’t complain but they are now exposed to 20 – 30 years of risk. Me, I’d be much happier knowing that NO debt is involved and that the club owns the condos outright with no strings attached.

So what’s wrong with a $560k condo in the HCC inventory that has no debt and that the $9,000 MF * 8 members = $72,000 per year goes for maintaining the condo in pristine condition and a fat profit to the owners? They are getting the eventual real estate appreciation on top of the monthly MF too.

I just think, and it’s the opinion of just one person, that the DC industry started off on the wrong foot – lots of debt when cash is a much safer route for everyone involved. I guess its the old game of keeping up with the Jones.

P.S.
The DC industry has a great scheme going for it – put up NO money, find 8 folks who will give them an unsecured loan, charge the 8 folks rent to use the condo and then sell the condo for a fat profit. To add 100% debt servicing on top of this seems just too piggish to me and we all know that bulls and bears are ok in business but pigs get no sympathy.

The DC industry is just too piggish and eventually this will come back and get them stuck and roasted alive.

Bourne · Jan 15, 2008

There are no piggish profits.

Do a back of envelope calculation of basic costs of running a DC and you will know.
1. Staff pay
2. Operation cost..
3. Marketing...
4. Real Estate tax and Home owners dues/insurance( its a condo )

Then take the piggish profits, if any...

4. Maintenance of units...

Do you want me to detail the calc that I am talking about or is it evident.

PerryM · Jan 15, 2008

Hiccups are bad for the DC industry...

Bourne said:
There are no piggish profits.

Do a back of envelope calculation of basic costs of running a DC and you will know.
1. Staff pay
2. Operation cost..
3. Marketing...
4. Real Estate tax and Home owners dues/insurance( its a condo )

Then take the piggish profits, if any...

4. Maintenance of units...

Do you want me to detail the calc that I am talking about or is it evident.

This thread is about equity based DCs and I’m proposing that equity does not come with a 100% mortgage attached.

If the DC model is to go beyond equity and provide condos that come with 100% debt then that’s the piggishness I’m referring to. The owners of the DC and the members are living way beyond a safe level and have decided to use condos that are way beyond their cash means.

I think this is unnecessary and a reason the DC industry is built on a house of cards; well actually a pile of mortgages. Look at how many homeowners enter foreclosure for living in a house way beyond their means.

It has nothing to do with profits but eyeing something that neither the owners nor the members can afford. That’s the DC model for 90% of the DCs out there – very very high risk.

Hope no one gets a hiccup.

TarheelTraveler · Jan 15, 2008

I don't often agree with Perry, but a DC model without debt makes a lot of sense, as it lowers the risk and is better from a tax and a cost of borrowing perspective. If you raise a membership fee in order to acquire property without debt, the consumer can then decide whether to incur debt in purchasing the membership fee (rather than the DC management deciding). If the consumer chooses to finance all or a portion of the membership fee, he or she is typically borrowing money at 6-7%, with the interest often being tax deductible to the consumer through a home equity loan for example. If the DC is borrowing money, it is probably at 8-11%, is deductible to the DC and not the consumer, and results in higher dues and risk. However, there is certainly an incentive to leverage a DC like this, because it lowers the membership costs and allows the purchase of more expensive properties through a lot of leverage.

seatrout · Jan 15, 2008

TarheelTraveler said:
In response to the question on Crescendo, I've been very happy. Great houses that are even better than the pictures, great service, and experienced management with extensive real estate and hospitality experience. Only negative is a somewhat limited number of houses currently, although this is going to change significantly in the coming months.

As an example, we're in Punta Mita, Mexico right now. Have a chef cooked breakfast every morning. House overlooks the infinity edge pool, fairway and ocean in an incredible resort with Four Seasons golf and beach club membership included. Concierge is great. She showed us around the entire resort and was available to answer questions and make arrangements at any time. Went to the local village pharmacy today to get our daughter some medicine. Glad we didn't have to try to tackle that with very limited knowledge of Spanish. Have a local U.S. number that people can call and free long distance to U.S. and Canada on a Vonage phone. The house is professionally decorated with high quality and durable furniture. Plenty of DVDs, board games and video games are in the house.

On a lighter note for this tread. I do not have a live in maid nor ever had a professional chef cook for me.

Does the "chef" stay at the property in the maid quarter in Punta Mita ??
Is the food and greens fees included with your maintenance bill ??
Is that typical of most of your trip ?? As in private jet, do most highend DC have the "chef" services? Where we I sign up

I would need to sell our vacation home in Galveston. It has it own 200' pier over a fish highway.
every summer during trafic time (incoming tide), you can catch unlimited speckel trout.

TarheelTraveler · Jan 16, 2008

I hear you. We've got a cleaning person and a yard person on a weekly basis at home, but certainly not anything like that. No one stays in the house, but several of the Crescendo residences have a 1/2 day cleaning person and some have breakfast cooked for you. I assume the availability is based on cost for the most part. For example, in New York, there is a destination host, but not a cook. I will tell you that breakfast each morning was a highlight for us and our guests. They would do American-style breakfasts for you, but we preferred the Mexican style. No charge for these services (other than normal dues), but you do have to pay for food and drink that the house is stocked with (other than the customary drinks that are always present).

seatrout · Jan 16, 2008

The following content does not fit this thread but your commend reminded me of the various class difference in the world. I am truely glad that it is not so extream here and even the bottom class of our country can rise if they have the determination. My parent for example was able to rise out of the bottom of the barrow in this country after immigration out of Vietnam.

In the US, live in maid is consider a luxury typical of those private jet level. So daily maid service may be typical on highend accomodation. I would say that many "accredited investor" do not have live in maid.

In many part of the world, it was standar for the middle class to have live in maid and cook.

I went to a conference in Brazil several year ago and rented a condo for the weekl(1200 /wk) It came with a live-n made who cook us dinner and clean the red dirt from our shoes as well as our laundry. We never had our tennis shoes clean daily before. She also clean the bed and do the laundry without any laundry machine. It was fun at first but afterwhile we felt bad for her. Gave her a big tip and thought about bringing her to the US. She have ZERO opportunity to rise in her society and out of her class.
The "second class" in brazil live in a very small closet that is typical of a mail quarter. I think they make $100/month.

My kids did appreciated what they have in the US better af ther this trip

The friend I had in Brazil was a plastic surgeon. Imagine a pair of breast cost the same as a Oakley sunglass. Their medicine is socialize there so all the physician are quite poor with exception of the plastic surgeon. Except there are massive competion in plastics surgery ( I even thought of getting my wife a new pair being they cost the same as a pair of Oakley )

So staying in these multi-million dollar home is great BUT I may also need to bring the kid down to earth so that they don't grow up to be spoiled brats.

NeilGoBlue · Jan 16, 2008

seatrout said:
So staying in these multi-million dollar home is great BUT I may also need to bring the kid down to earth so that they don't grow up to be spoiled brats.

As steamboat bill has said.. you can always slum it in million dollar homes.. you don't need multi million dollar homes.....lol...

3DH · Jan 16, 2008

OK, I'll bite... I have read through all of the reasoning and am still willing to jump into the ring!

Yes, we are members of LUSSO... and I believe we made a great choice joining that club, after first making the leap with (and subsequently resigning) another very, very large club that will remain nameless.

Perry... all DC's are not the same, and I realize I am opening myself up for some serious slamming here, but...

LUSSO offers 100% of the membership deposit back upon leaving the club, PLUS 50% of any appreciation in membership deposits since joining. They also offer a "perpetual" membership that CAN be willed to your heirs, or transferred to a relative during your lifetime for NO FEE, should that decision be made for any reason.

I would also like to add that with most DC's you are not responsible for taxes and governmental fees, of any kind, related to the real estate -- which you DO pay for timeshares.

Furthermore, I would welcome a shout if ANYONE on this forum has ever been able to sell a timeshare for more than you paid (from the developer... the ones with "benefits", so we say). If so, here is your cheer: :cheer:

You won't typically find an appreciation of your investment in the timeshare world, either -- don't expect it in the typical DC scenario. As I mentioned, LUSSO does offer appreciation, as do the "equity" clubs.

Anyway, to each his/her own... for our family, the DC has worked much better, as we have much larger properties, complimentary transportation to and from the airport, a SUV in the garage (yes, the ones that guzzle gas and get my whole family places, much like the one in my own garage!

), concierge for each location (not ever shared with more than 1 other family at a time...), and a true "home" -- with every known appliance and convenience I am used to at my home, in a location second to none!

I am not telling you to jump on the bandwagon, but rather not to knock those of us who have discovered its worth! I, for one, appreciate the multi-million $ homes!

PerryM · Jan 16, 2008

3DH said:
OK, I'll bite... I have read through all of the reasoning and am still willing to jump into the ring!

Yes, we are members of LUSSO... and I believe we made a great choice joining that club, after first making the leap with (and subsequently resigning) another very, very large club that will remain nameless.

Perry... all DC's are not the same, and I realize I am opening myself up for some serious slamming here, but...

LUSSO offers 100% of the membership deposit back upon leaving the club, PLUS 50% of any appreciation in membership deposits since joining. They also offer a "perpetual" membership that CAN be willed to your heirs, or transferred to a relative during your lifetime for NO FEE, should that decision be made for any reason.

I would also like to add that with most DC's you are not responsible for taxes and governmental fees, of any kind, related to the real estate -- which you DO pay for timeshares.

Furthermore, I would welcome a shout if ANYONE on this forum has ever been able to sell a timeshare for more than you paid (from the developer... the ones with "benefits", so we say). If so, here is your cheer: You won't typically find an appreciation of your investment in the timeshare world, either -- don't expect it in the typical DC scenario. As I mentioned, LUSSO does offer appreciation, as do the "equity" clubs.

Anyway, to each his/her own... for our family, the DC has worked much better, as we have much larger properties, complimentary transportation to and from the airport, a SUV in the garage (yes, the ones that guzzle gas and get my whole family places, much like the one in my own garage!), concierge for each location (not ever shared with more than 1 other family at a time...), and a true "home" -- with every known appliance and convenience I am used to at my home, in a location second to none!

I am not telling you to jump on the bandwagon, but rather not to knock those of us who have discovered its worth! I, for one, appreciate the multi-million $ homes!

I can help you with someone who made a profit on selling a timeshare. I did 5 times and all 5 were bought directly from Marriott to top it off.

Making a profit on a resale timeshare is no great feat – folks do it all the time. Throw in all the profit from renting a timeshare and it’s a great hobby that pays big bucks for your effort.

I like what I hear about LUSSO – I like the revenue sharing and wonder why this same scheme can’t be adopted by ALL DCs?

I didn’t get much from their web site – how much to join and what benefits for different memberships? I don’t have the time today to investigate further and would appreciate a recap.

3DH · Jan 16, 2008

LUSSO membership pricing info:
http://www.lussocollection.com/page/rd07-membership.jsp
$395k to join, $28k per year dues, unlimited use.
(one membership level)

No, it's not cheap nor for everyone, but, if it is right for your family, it is a great choice!
Is it right for you?

As to selling timeshares, I can only tell you we have had limited to no interest in renting/selling our unit at Orange Lake CC... would just as soon sell the thing. (We were lucky enough to buy it at a charity auction, so have very little invested in it other than annual fees)

And, thankfully, since we don't use our Starwood weeks, we can still convert them to Starpoints then to airline miles to fly free to DC vacations. If that benefit ever changes I will be in a real tough position!

PerryM · Jan 16, 2008

3DH said:
LUSSO membership pricing info:
http://www.lussocollection.com/page/rd07-membership.jsp
$395k to join, $28k per year dues, unlimited use. (one membership level, other than corporate)
No, it's not cheap nor for everyone, but, if it is right for your family, it is a great choice!
Is it right for you?

As to selling timeshares, I can only tell you we have had limited to no interest in renting/selling our unit at Orange Lake CC... would just as soon sell the thing. (We were lucky enough to buy it at a charity auction, so have very little invested in it other than annual fees)

And, thankfully, since we don't use our Starwood weeks, we can still convert them to Starpoints then to airline miles to fly free to DC vacations. If that benefit ever changes I will be in a real tough position!

Thanks for the info - painting the kitchen today, while the stock market cries its eyes out.

Marriotts and Disney owners routinely sell their units for profits if held long enough (5 years). Resales are easy to buy, rent them out (Not Disney, they don't like that), and sell for more than they were bought for.

But you have to pick a healthy timeshare developer, one that isn't at war with its owners like Wyndham or WM. These two organizations, under the same umbrella, are NOT the timeshares to make a profit with.

seatrout · Jan 16, 2008

I sent for an info package from them.

I personally would not loose any money selling my timeshares as well, It is just a hassel puting them on ebay.

Please clarify the "unlimited use"
what would prevent someone who would essentially go on vacation all year ??
would the maintenance fees be increased ??

Steamboat Bill · Jan 16, 2008

seatrout said:
The friend I had in Brazil was a plastic surgeon. Imagine a pair of breast cost the same as a Oakley sunglass. Their medicine is socialize there so all the physician are quite poor with exception of the plastic surgeon. Except there are massive competion in plastics surgery ( I even thought of getting my wife a new pair being they cost the same as a pair of Oakley )

So staying in these multi-million dollar home is great BUT I may also need to bring the kid down to earth so that they don't grow up to be spoiled brats.

That was a great post for several reasons....I am trying to imagine the conversation at home...."honey I bought you a little (big) present(s)...you just need to go under the knife to receive it....Bravo to you if you pull this one off....you are my new hero.

Also, on a serious note, I have two kids 12yo and 9yo and we live in Boca Raton where they regularly get picked up for play dates in Bentleys and chauffeured driven cars. We take lots of nice vacations, but I don't want them to ever get jaded. Sadly, The definition of a poor person in my neighborhood is someone who drives a brand new Mercedes C-class. We considered joining ER, but felt the $3-4m homes were too over-the-top for my kids and I didn't want them to expect that every vacation. We just got back from HCC Stowe and it was a 3 bedroom 4 bath and the kids loved it....but the price of the home was in the $800-900k range.

3DH said:
Yes, we are members of LUSSO... and I believe we made a great choice joining that club, after first making the leap with (and subsequently resigning) another very, very large club that will remain nameless.

Furthermore, I would welcome a shout if ANYONE on this forum has ever been able to sell a timeshare for more than you paid (from the developer... the ones with "benefits", so we say). If so, here is your cheer: You won't typically find an appreciation of your investment in the timeshare world, either -- don't expect it in the typical DC scenario. As I mentioned, LUSSO does offer appreciation, as do the "equity" clubs.

I am glad we have a LUSSO member here....(there is only one DC that is very, very large

) and look forward to your posts.

I have purchased 7 contracts from Disney for Disney Vacation Club and sold 2 (for a $3k profit each). Before I joined HCC, I constantly posted about DVC (and how you can make a profit) and people got sick and tired of hearing about it. But you are correct as 95% of all timeshares bought from a developer can never be sold for a profit.

I posted a simple message offering some DVC points for rent on mouseowners last nigh and I have already had 10 requests. I listed my Westgate Park City ski week for rent months ago and never got one reply (so I banked it for 2009).

3DH · Jan 16, 2008

Seatrout, see my post at the link below for more clarification on the reservation system with regard to LUSSO's unlimited use:http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=451480&postcount=14

TarheelTraveler · Jan 16, 2008

Almost every DC rule can be considered both good or bad depending on your perspective. That's why there's not one DC that is good for all. When I was looking at DCs, unlimited nights was a turn off to me, because I only had a limited amount of time for vacations and was concerned that this type of rule had to impact availability for me on a long term basis, because certainly some would take advantage to the extent possible. If that impacts availability, I would suspect the DC would lower the ratio of houses:members, but in a sense, I would be paying for the lower ratio, even though I wasn't taking advantage of it. However, if I was retired or had the ability to take a lot of vacations, that would be a primary criteria in selecting a DC. I would absolutely want unlimited nights.

3DH · Jan 16, 2008

Agreed, Tarheel, for sure! I believe that is why LUSSO limits member/home ratio to 5.5:1.

When we were members of the large club with a limited number of nights in our plan, I found we were over analyzing places to go and never felt we quite got the "best" deal for our time, and often felt we were settling with our choices of what was available. The other problem we had was taking shorter vacations instead of 7 days at a time. With the reservation rules of the club we were in, once we had made our allowed "advanced" reservations, we were forced to use the remaining days (almost a week remaining at that point) within their space available time. With that, we were forced to use them to go wherever was available (slim choices) before they expired.

As I said before in more length, there are DC's with many different plans and at various price points to satisfy the travel needs of just about anyone!

seatrout · Jan 16, 2008

3DH said:
Seatrout, see my post at the link below for more clarification on the reservation system with regard to LUSSO's unlimited use:http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=451480&postcount=14

Sorry. I read the post and got a migraine headache. Feel like those multiple/multiple choice test I took back in grad school.

Look like I have have 35 days book at any moment in time. Kind of like, I can check out 5 movie (7wks) and after I return, I can rent more ??. Am I reading it correctly?

seatrout · Jan 16, 2008

Steamboat Bill said:
That was a great post for several reasons....I am trying to imagine the conversation at home...."honey I bought you a little (big) present(s)...you just need to go under the knife to receive it....Bravo to you if you pull this one off....you are my new hero.QUOTE]

Bill

I took the wife on that trip, The friend did offer free "total B/B Lift & tummy tuck"

My kids and wife are already spoilled staying in TS. Everytime we go somewhere my 8yo always asked "are we staying in a big room or a hotel ??"
They are going camping as part of school in two months and my wife have to go with them. They are already nervous. I grew up camping and thought KOA was where the "rich" camper goes