Definitive (I believe) answers to some important points program questions

DanCali said:

This sound important.

So if I own at NCV and enroll and then deposit my reserved July week in II as a week, only people who use II with points can access that week? Meaning other people who are enrolled in points but trade weeks will not have access to that week either (you saw weeks traders inside or out see the same things)?

So unless you use II with points, the weeks available to you will shrink, no matter what?

That what it sounds like to me, but if I misunderstand please clarify.

We may have hit on the key on how the enrooled weeks who join for the II savings will eventually be forced to use points after all. And so will the ones who haven't enrolled...

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My understanding is that Marriott will fulfill requests with weeks NOT yet in II, but not have weeks they have already deposited to II segregated other than the current internal trading preference that we all know with II. Basically many weeks given up by those enrolled will never make it to II but will potentially be available to other enrolled and points owners independent of II.

m61376 said:

Hopefully, their definition of comparable is comparable to ours. Other than that weak link, trading should be similar- there will be less inventory, but commensurately less competition for it. The only other rub I foresee is that week owners may or may not get access to Marriott bulk deposits. I would assume these would go to point users- HOWEVER- Marriott wants us owners to visit to enhance our ownership with points.

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As I understand it weeks owners would have access to the inventory deposited, the question is how the line is formed. Currently and in the near future I feel it's likely that those trading high demand weeks at top quality resorts will actually be as well or better off but those trying to uptrade will be far worse off. However, I anticipate the Internal trading preference to evaporate for non Club accounts at some point but I also expect the trade power for those high end options to increase in many situations. I also expect the overall number of top deposits to decrease in favor of more shoulder season weeks but I do expect the mix of smaller to larger units to move slightly in favor of less smaller and more larger ones.

Dean-
I am not sure if I am misunderstanding you or not- but, from what I was told at least- your statement that "many weeks given up by those enrolled will never make it to II but will potentially be available to other enrolled and points owners independent of II" may not be right, unless you you mean enrolled owners giving up their weeks for points that year.

The way it was portrayed to me, at least, is that week owners would be trading for week deposits, and point owners for enrolled week owners who converted to points for the year deposits, point owner inventory, Marriott unsold inventory, and Marriott inventory from people trading in for reward points. Of course, Marriott reserves the right to dip into the week deposit pool, but supposedly II will be requiring a comparable trade, like they do from everyone else.

So, the way I see it, you might see a lot of high end newer resort availability from Marriott inventory as trades for higher demand sold out properties.

An interesting twist to the issue of relatively undervalued weeks- those properties which command a high rental rate but whose point allotments were really out of whack with the rental market will be perceived as better point values. For example, Aruba weeks which rent for 6k by Marriott were awarded less points than weeks that rent for 3K. As a point user- which would you think was a better value for use of your points- somewhere which Marriott charges 3K for the week or where they charge 6K? I expect demand for the Caribbean properties to be high and where there is little Marriott inventory they will need the weeks owners' deposits to fill the requests. I expect that most owners of the properties where the point allocations aren't commensurate with perceived value will find better value in trading in weeks. I know I was told by several people that, basically, there were some properties where trading in weeks will be better for the owner because of the point allocations. So, it may be that high value properties that suffered in the point allocations will enjoy increased demand in II, because Marriott will need those weeks to fulfill requests.

m61376 said:

Dean-
I am not sure if I am misunderstanding you or not- but, from what I was told at least- your statement that "many weeks given up by those enrolled will never make it to II but will potentially be available to other enrolled and points owners independent of II" may not be right, unless you you mean enrolled owners giving up their weeks for points that year.

The way it was portrayed to me, at least, is that week owners would be trading for week deposits, and point owners for enrolled week owners who converted to points for the year deposits, point owner inventory, Marriott unsold inventory, and Marriott inventory from people trading in for reward points. Of course, Marriott reserves the right to dip into the week deposit pool, but supposedly II will be requiring a comparable trade, like they do from everyone else.

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You've got a number of pots of weeks. These include weeks from non converted owners, weeks from enrolled owners who take their week itself, those who convert to points but want to secure other time at a Marriott resort, developer time (unsold, ROFR, Foreclosures) and units given up for MR points. Of those and assuming we're talking internal Marriott trading, only the weeks from non converted options will automatically to go II the way I'm seeing it. The other group that are LIKELY to get to II are those that have converted but are trading their full week independent of points. It's possible that Marriott will screen those weeks and if they can match them internally, may do so bypassing II initially. That approach would bring up some interesting discussions if you later decided to cancel though, I suppose Marriott could then put a "comparable" week into II later if need be. I'm not yet convinced that those that convert will have the option of using their outside II account with converted weeks even if no points are elected, we'll see. Obviously we're all in a learning curve here, fir the rules, then the applications of those rules in practice.

Dean- The problem, of course, is we're flying here with blind faith. Supposedly weeks whether use in our II account or in a club II account, whether or not enrolled, can be traded exactly the same as weeks are currently, with access to other week inventory. I understand what you are insinuating and, as you imply, practice may differ from what is being outlined.

Dean said:

You've got a number of pots of weeks. These include weeks from non converted owners, weeks from enrolled owners who take their week itself, those who convert to points but want to secure other time at a Marriott resort, developer time (unsold, ROFR, Foreclosures) and units given up for MR points. Of those and assuming we're talking internal Marriott trading, only the weeks from non converted options will automatically to go II the way I'm seeing it. The other group that are LIKELY to get to II are those that have converted but are trading their full week independent of points. It's possible that Marriott will screen those weeks and if they can match them internally, may do so bypassing II initially. That approach would bring up some interesting discussions if you later decided to cancel though, I suppose Marriott could then put a "comparable" week into II later if need be. I'm not yet convinced that those that convert will have the option of using their outside II account with converted weeks even if no points are elected, we'll see. Obviously we're all in a learning curve here, fir the rules, then the applications of those rules in practice.

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If you are exchanging weeks for weeks, all of those exchanges go through II. Marriott will not give a week out of their points inventory for another week that you offer up. If you want to do a week for week exchange, Marriott does that exchange for you through II. If you have to cancel later, you get the normal II cancellation replacement week.

What I see Marriott doing however, it picking the week for you that will be deposited in to II or used for the request first search. Not providing the ability to book a week and then deposit/search with that week.

m61376 said:

Dean- The problem, of course, is we're flying here with blind faith. Supposedly weeks whether use in our II account or in a club II account, whether or not enrolled, can be traded exactly the same as weeks are currently, with access to other week inventory. I understand what you are insinuating and, as you imply, practice may differ from what is being outlined.

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IMO, ultimately all we have ever had is faith in Marriott whether well founded or not. That is about all that separates them from Spinnaker, Westgate, etc. The faith results in $$$ that allow them to set themselves apart in other ways such as quality, upscale, etc.

As for trading, I think you're referencing the outbound options, not the match options. I believe the answers may be different when you qualify what happens AFTER you proceed with a deposit and exchange request. If you have a non enrolled week you deposit (or use request first) with II and place your appropriate request. Those weeks are available to II either from day one for deposit first or at the time you match for request first. Say you call your VOA and say I want to deposit with II but not request, I fully expect it to work just like I described above although there are possibilities that it may not. However, lets stay you call your VOA and say you want to deposit and search for Maui for X date. It is very possible, if not likely, that if they have what you want, they give it to you, take your week and everyone is happy. Well everyone except the non enrolled II member searching for either the Maui week or the one you were depositing.

Dean said:

IMO, ultimately all we have ever had is faith in Marriott whether well founded or not. That is about all that separates them from Spinnaker, Westgate, etc. The faith results in $$$ that allow them to set themselves apart in other ways such as quality, upscale, etc.

As for trading, I think you're referencing the outbound options, not the match options. I believe the answers may be different when you qualify what happens AFTER you proceed with a deposit and exchange request. If you have a non enrolled week you deposit (or use request first) with II and place your appropriate request. Those weeks are available to II either from day one for deposit first or at the time you match for request first. Say you call your VOA and say I want to deposit with II but not request, I fully expect it to work just like I described above although there are possibilities that it may not. However, lets stay you call your VOA and say you want to deposit and search for Maui for X date. It is very possible, if not likely, that if they have what you want, they give it to you, take your week and everyone is happy. Well everyone except the non enrolled II member searching for either the Maui week or the one you were depositing.

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I don't think this is correct and I don't expect it to work like this. Marriott isn't in the week for week exchange business. It would undermine the entire point system that they have setup. If you call your VOA and ask for a week for week exchange, they may check II first and let you know if they can instantly confirm your request. However if they can't and they see a week sitting in points inventory, they will offer it to you if you convert your week(s) to point to secure the reservation. If you opt not to convert to points, they will put in either a deposit or request first search with II. II will confirm the week if the search matches. Marriott won't be pulling time from their points pool to give to week for week exchangers.

I would bet that somewhere in the new contract between II and Marriott is a clause that doesn't allow Marriott to compete against II in the week for week exchange business. This would be a requirement of having their corporate account.

dioxide45 said:

I don't think this is correct and I don't expect it to work like this. Marriott isn't in the week for week exchange business. It would undermine the entire point system that they have setup. If you call your VOA and ask for a week for week exchange, they may check II first and let you know if they can instantly confirm your request. However if they can't and they see a week sitting in points inventory, they will offer it to you if you convert your week(s) to point to secure the reservation. If you opt not to convert to points, they will put in either a deposit or request first search with II. II will confirm the week if the search matches. Marriott won't be pulling time from their points pool to give to week for week exchangers.

I would bet that somewhere in the new contract between II and Marriott is a clause that doesn't allow Marriott to compete against II in the week for week exchange business. This would be a requirement of having their corporate account.

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We'll see, I think it's clear Marriott is already competing and like with DVC before them, II will cave to keep them in the system just to be able to list them if nothing else. If Marriott were to change to RCI, the balance of quality vs quantity would truly flip to RCI on both sides of the isle. The next 2-3 years should be fun.

Dean said:

We'll see, I think it's clear Marriott is already competing and like with DVC before them, II will cave to keep them in the system just to be able to list them if nothing else. If Marriott were to change to RCI, the balance of quality vs quantity would truly flip to RCI on both sides of the isle. The next 2-3 years should be fun.

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I just don't see how providing week for week exchanges benefits Marriott. They don't get the profit from the "skim". It also completely eliminates the entire reason they created a points based system. They won't save money on II searches as I am sure they are paying one flat rate per enrollee for the corporate II account.

It is written in the II buyers guide that week for week exchanges go through II. There are no provisions in the disclosure documents that would permit Marriott to do week for week exchanges. I don't see RCI allowing Marriott to switch to them and then compete with them on a week for week basis. I just don't see it happening.

dioxide45 said:

What I see Marriott doing however, it picking the week for you that will be deposited in to II or used for the request first search. Not providing the ability to book a week and then deposit/search with that week.

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That could be a risk, but those who have spoken to Marriott teams who are in the know say that they are not going to repeat the Starwood mistake.

dioxide45 said:

I just don't see how providing week for week exchanges benefits Marriott. They don't get the profit from the "skim". It also completely eliminates the entire reason they created a points based system. They won't save money on II searches as I am sure they are paying one flat rate per enrollee for the corporate II account.

It is written in the II buyers guide that week for week exchanges go through II. There are no provisions in the disclosure documents that would permit Marriott to do week for week exchanges. I don't see RCI allowing Marriott to switch to them and then compete with them on a week for week basis. I just don't see it happening.

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The potential benefit to Marriott is that it gives them a week to potentially fill a wait list or pending "exchange" to churn the points and to satisfy the person they most want happy, the points owner. We'll see how this sorts out and what changes and/or is interpreted differently by Marriott and II than we are reading into it. Should be fun for a while. OTOH, With DVC's BVTC, full week exchanges for items that are potentially available through the exchange company are not eligible for exchanges through that system. I wonder how long it'll take Marriott to establish 1 or more trading partners similar to DVC's BVTC or Bluegreen's Select Connections.

Dean-
I was specifically told that we could reserve and deposit the week that we book whether or not we are an enrolled weeks member (if we are dealing in weeks for that year, of course).

I don't know how it will ultimately work- but I was told the same as Dioxide is posting- if you are using weeks, enrolled or not, then all exchanges will be via the weeks pool in II. Of course, you may be right and they may switch to fulfill on on-going request, but as of now their intention is to keep the pools separate.

I just don't know what Marriott will use to determine trade power in a week for week system. Do you think they will take a silver Branson week and give back a Hawaii Christmas because that is what the Branson owner was wanting to try and trade through II for? I don't think so. Marriott has no mechanism for measuring trade value other than their points charts. II has their TDI and 30+ years of experience in determining trade value. Marriott has no experience in a week for week exchange system and I don't expect them to even try to fulfill those. As I indicated before, the whole thought of that undermines their entire points based concept.

There will be two types of Marriott to Marriott internal trades in the future. Points, give up your week for destination club points and secure a reservation with those points. The other will be the same "internal" system they have now that is handled through II.

m61376 said:

Dean-
I was specifically told that we could reserve and deposit the week that we book whether or not we are an enrolled weeks member (if we are dealing in weeks for that year, of course).

I don't know how it will ultimately work- but I was told the same as Dioxide is posting- if you are using weeks, enrolled or not, then all exchanges will be via the weeks pool in II. Of course, you may be right and they may switch to fulfill on on-going request, but as of now their intention is to keep the pools separate.

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I have not doubt one can reserve and deposit with weeks whether enrolled or not. I was speculating about the situation where an enrolled owner wanted a given week and resort and Marriott had what they wanted (or could get it out of II).

dioxide45 said:

I just don't know what Marriott will use to determine trade power in a week for week system. Do you think they will take a silver Branson week and give back a Hawaii Christmas because that is what the Branson owner was wanting to try and trade through II for? I don't think so. Marriott has no mechanism for measuring trade value other than their points charts. II has their TDI and 30+ years of experience in determining trade value. Marriott has no experience in a week for week exchange system and I don't expect them to even try to fulfill those. As I indicated before, the whole thought of that undermines their entire points based concept.

There will be two types of Marriott to Marriott internal trades in the future. Points, give up your week for destination club points and secure a reservation with those points. The other will be the same "internal" system they have now that is handled through II.

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Actually they have the info directly from II to determine any trade power they might need to assess. They could just use what's already agreed upon. I'm sure they'll also have direct access to II's computer system like Disney did when they were with II.

Dean said:

I have not doubt one can reserve and deposit with weeks whether enrolled or not. I was speculating about the situation where an enrolled owner wanted a given week and resort and Marriott had what they wanted (or could get it out of II).

Actually they have the info directly from II to determine any trade power they might need to assess. They could just use what's already agreed upon. I'm sure they'll also have direct access to II's computer system like Disney did when they were with II.

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I would find it very doubtful if II has provided Marriott or even DVC in the past access to how their TDI was determined. Sure they may know what the TDI for each week in each area is, but actual access to proprietary information would be very unlikely.

Marriott and II use points as a measure for trade power between the two. The thing I find interesting is that you can get a Hawaii week far cheaper using points through II than you can through Marriott. It appears that any 2BR peak week through II is 4500 points. Regardless if it is in Hawaii or Orlando. So this could make out for some cheap points trades with II vs booking with Marriott points.

A MMO (Maui) peak week is 6475 points through Marriott destination points, but you could try to exchange through II using points and go for only 4500. This may be something that can help eliminate the skim.

dioxide45 said:

A MMO (Maui) peak week is 6475 points through Marriott destination points, but you could try to exchange through II using points and go for only 4500. This may be something that can help eliminate the skim.

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Dioxide,

There are other examples of this too -- a 2BR Ko Olina TDI 90-110 will take 4,050 points for mountain view and 4,975 for ocean view, if booked thru Marriott.

If you request an exchange for this 2BR with II, then it will cost you 3,000 points -- a delta of either 1,050 or 1,975 points from what Marriott wants.

However, the II guide that has this table states its the points requirements for trades to Non-Marriott resorts, so its not clear what they will do if I tell them I want to take 3,000 points and trade for Ko Olina in January.

Plus, it's not clear if Marriott points will have weak trading value (like Wyndham) or strong trading value (like Worldmark).

We will see -- thanks!

Greg

dioxide45 said:

I would find it very doubtful if II has provided Marriott or even DVC in the past access to how their TDI was determined. Sure they may know what the TDI for each week in each area is, but actual access to proprietary information would be very unlikely.

Marriott and II use points as a measure for trade power between the two. The thing I find interesting is that you can get a Hawaii week far cheaper using points through II than you can through Marriott. It appears that any 2BR peak week through II is 4500 points. Regardless if it is in Hawaii or Orlando. So this could make out for some cheap points trades with II vs booking with Marriott points.

A MMO (Maui) peak week is 6475 points through Marriott destination points, but you could try to exchange through II using points and go for only 4500. This may be something that can help eliminate the skim.

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I know they did provide DVC with not only the information on ratings but direct access to their computer system. That includes the QRS and the ABC rating systems that II has used. I don't know if they provided them with the actual formula to determine trade power, I'd doubt they would.

Dean said:

We'll see, I think it's clear Marriott is already competing and like with DVC before them, II will cave to keep them in the system just to be able to list them if nothing else. If Marriott were to change to RCI, the balance of quality vs quantity would truly flip to RCI on both sides of the isle. The next 2-3 years should be fun.

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If Marriott were to change to RCI, that might make it very interesting. I have a little daughter now, and would love to be able to exchange into DVC.

hipslo said:

Right, but the weeks under its control could go up dramatically if lots of folks convert to points. If those folks are single week owners, the competition at 13 months could also correspndingly go up dramatically.

I think we have our answer.

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So am I right, in reading this, that under your theory, it would greatly behoove a single week owner to join the system, b/c essentially you'd get to be able to try and reserve a week at the 13-month mark (or heck, even earlier, no?) Of course, with the skimming in place, you'd not be able to get a full 7 days without buying more points....

Also - forgive me, this is, I'm sure, probably discussed elsewhere: but if I join the new system, can I just reserve my desired week at my home resort via Marriott, and *then* convert it to the Marriott Vacation Points? Would there be any benefit to doing that?

Tommy_Boy said:

So am I right, in reading this, that under your theory, it would greatly behoove a single week owner to join the system, b/c essentially you'd get to be able to try and reserve a week at the 13-month mark (or heck, even earlier, no?) Of course, with the skimming in place, you'd not be able to get a full 7 days without buying more points....

Also - forgive me, this is, I'm sure, probably discussed elsewhere: but if I join the new system, can I just reserve my desired week at my home resort via Marriott, and *then* convert it to the Marriott Vacation Points? Would there be any benefit to doing that?

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A single week owner in many cases won't have been given enough points to be considered a Premier member. They would not have the ability to reserve at 13 months. So for a single week owner, reserving at 12 months is still how it will happen in most cases.

You can make a reservation for your regular owned week and later convert your week to destination points as long as you do that prior to the deadline to convert to the points. I think it is September 30 of the year prior to use year.

If Dave's still reading, here's a post from another thread that's worthy of clarification, as it was the result of a recent presentation at a resort....

Link:
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=947638&postcount=16

Essentially, the poster believes they heard that enrolled weeks surrendered for points can use those points only in certain circumstances in the points program, one being *only* for week which other enrollees have surrendered, and excluding developer inventory and MRP surrenders and points-only (new) resorts.

Sounds a bit far-fectched, but there's been a lot of that lately. If an answer or reference to the appropriate documentation is possible, I'm sure it would be helpful.

If nothing else, make Marriott aware of the perception so they can perhaps retrain their staff to communicate the features more clearly.

I'm getting a headache reading all of this. I have a couple questions:
1. I assume all unsold units at all resorts will ONLY be points now. That is a lot, even in Hawaii. Also, all units given up for points, bought back by Marriott, and (as I was told by Marriott today) those repossesed by Marriott for non-payment. I am guessing that all these "points" units will fulfill most of the demand by points traders so we should not have to worry so much about losing the existing opportunites at our own resorts.
2. I assume that Marriott will re-evaluate actual demand over time. If those prime ski weeks have super demand, I would expect the points requirement AND the points awarded to reliquish to climb. After awhile, supply and demand should help the situation if you really want that prime ski week. Nobody buy you (the week owner) will be able to afford it!
3. We seem to expect a flood of "points people" invading all the resorts with short prime seasons all the time. This cannot happen unless all these people cash in all they have and probably buy a lot more points. Even then, it is very unlikely to happen every year, as these same people will be rolling/borrowing to get that great week you want. I also see this as self-correcting over time.
4. This sure seems to me to be the same hysteria (albeit at a higher level) over getting the exact week you want at the exact resort. Chances are your season covers weeks you don't really want, and that has been a risk since day one. I have never understood why anyone would buy a timeshare in a season when they really wanted a specific week (or a week in a very narrow window). Sorry, this has always struck me as unrealistic. I guess we'll see whether your situation improves or not, but I'm guessing with more options to use weeks other than at a Marriott should help. We just have to see how many people take the African safari and burn a couple years usage.

So Many Inconsistencies

Dave M: I have a question (or to anyone else to can figure this out).

I looked at the Disclosure Statement for MOC that Marriott gave me when I bought my deeded unit. It describes how the program participants will be able to reserve weeks. Multiple unit owners (and only MOC multiweek owners) will have 13 month priority; but limited to no more than 50% of the deeded interests; and the rest of the deed owners get 12 month priority.

It doesn't provide for premium point owners, or anyone else, getting 13 month priority.

The loyal customers of Marriott who purchased deeds had a reasonable expectation that only MOC owners who purchased multiple weeks could get priority for the best dates. One could reasonable assume that less than 50% of the units would actually be owned by multiple week owners; probably a lot less than 50%.

Is Marriott going to claim that all of the deeds it puts in its trust create multiweek ownership? That seems rather far fetched. I thought the Lahaina Towers were sold out? Where is Marriott getting these deeded interests?

Is Marriott going to give its premium points members 13 month priority only when MOC multiple unit owners turn in their weeks; or will Marriott treat all available weeks as subject to the 13 month availability for its premium points members? If so, how can they change the rules by giving outsiders prioity that was reserved to deed owners?

I have a bad feeling that our expectations; based on Marriott's representations and the Disclosure Statement they provided us are now being altered without our consent (based on some fine print exception in some unknown document that Marriott isn't explaining to us).

If anyone knows how Marriott is explaining how it can legally alter our priority system; described in the Disclosure Statement; I would love to hear their reasoning.

Lawlar said:

It doesn't provide for premium point owners, or anyone else, getting 13 month priority....

Is Marriott going to claim that all of the deeds it puts in its trust create multiweek ownership? That seems rather far fetched.

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This is exactly what Marriott is doing. They are reserving weeks for point owners and enrolled converted owners under the multiple week ownership of the trust.

I thought the Lahaina Towers were sold out? Where is Marriott getting these deeded interests?

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If they were sold out, they sure did so very fast. These towers aren't much more than a few years old. I seriously doubt they sold them out that fast. Especially given the downturn in the economy and credit woes.

Lawlar:
I'm not a lawyer, but I've heard this "multiple weeks" at 13 month discussion many times before. My understanding (and I've actually done this, and at MOC) is "multiple weeks owners" include people who own more than one week at ANY Marriott, not just MOC. I can tell you from personal experience that I can book a MOC week 13 months out by combining it back-to-back with my KoOlina week. So the pool of owners reserving at 13 months out has always been more than just multiple-week MOC owners.