HHV non availability to owners

I am new to the BB as a contributor, but have been reading for some time. My wife and I bought at the Lagoon Tower at the HHV pre-construction in 2000. We currently have 40,000 plus points. Our reason for buying Hilton was the ease of being able to book various types of rooms to suite our needs in a particular year (traveling with family and friends). In the last 2-3 years It's been a big struggle to get anything in the "open season" to accommodate late deciders in our group. We bought two 2 bdrm ocean fronts at the Lagoon and were told at the time we could trade for other unit types in the open season. The Lagoon Tower has been sold out for a couple of years now. Hilton currently has 8 weekly segment available from it's upgrade program which leaves 326 X 50 -8 or 16,292 units that are owner controlled (the 50 is the # of weeks we were told a room was available per year the other 2 weeks were for maintenance). My problem is that when you go on to the reservation system nothing is available in weekly segments if at all. How can a 3 or 4 day stay be available if at first it wasn't available as a full week in the open season? Why can I and 3 of my friends call a Hilton 800# and rent the sold out Lagoon and get confirmations for rooms that they don't own? Why does Hilton advertise availability for a sold out building on it's website? Why can you get a 6 night stay at the HHv though the owner referal program but an owner can't book his points? Some may say that all this availabilty is do to owners turning their weeks into Hilton HHonors points. I think that Hilton is double dipping they charge us our maintenance fees then rent out owner owned weeks or portions of weeks as added income to the bottom line. I'm sorry for venting but this has been bothering me for sometime now and I can't be the only one that is suspicious of what's going on. After all I do feel like a fool for giving them 10's of thousands of dollars and paying them thousands in maintenance over 10 years to find out anyone off the street get's preferance over me and hasn't made the commitment to Hilton that my wife and I have. Big Spike

Big Spike said:

I am new to the BB as a contributor, but have been reading for some time. My wife and I bought at the Lagoon Tower at the HHV pre-construction in 2000. We currently have 40,000 plus points. Our reason for buying Hilton was the ease of being able to book various types of rooms to suite our needs in a particular year (traveling with family and friends). In the last 2-3 years It's been a big struggle to get anything in the "open season" to accommodate late deciders in our group. We bought two 2 bdrm ocean fronts at the Lagoon and were told at the time we could trade for other unit types in the open season. The Lagoon Tower has been sold out for a couple of years now. Hilton currently has 8 weekly segment available from it's upgrade program which leaves 326 X 50 -8 or 16,292 units that are owner controlled (the 50 is the # of weeks we were told a room was available per year the other 2 weeks were for maintenance). My problem is that when you go on to the reservation system nothing is available in weekly segments if at all. How can a 3 or 4 day stay be available if at first it wasn't available as a full week in the open season? Why can I and 3 of my friends call a Hilton 800# and rent the sold out Lagoon and get confirmations for rooms that they don't own? Why does Hilton advertise availability for a sold out building on it's website? Why can you get a 6 night stay at the HHv though the owner referal program but an owner can't book his points? Some may say that all this availabilty is do to owners turning their weeks into Hilton HHonors points. I think that Hilton is double dipping they charge us our maintenance fees then rent out owner owned weeks or portions of weeks as added income to the bottom line. I'm sorry for venting but this has been bothering me for sometime now and I can't be the only one that is suspicious of what's going on. After all I do feel like a fool for giving them 10's of thousands of dollars and paying them thousands in maintenance over 10 years to find out anyone off the street get's preferance over me and hasn't made the commitment to Hilton that my wife and I have. Big Spike

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Spike,

Welcome to TUG! Your frustrations are understandable, and other, more experienced HGVC TUGgers will have comments, I'm sure.

Fundamentally, as you know, HHV is (the?) one of the most highly demanded properties in the HGVC system. Almost any other property, you could easily get reservations in the Club Reservation period (within 9 months of check-in). Your preference period at HHV, which you paid big money for, only gives you beneficial access months 9-12 months prior to check-in.

Starting at month 9 (before check-in), other HGVC owners (like me ) will try to get a reservation at HHV with our non-HHV property. Because of all that demand, you are correct that there aren't any reservations easily available for you, 9 months prior to check-in.

I've encountered similar issues as you with respect to late-deciding friends and family. They don't understand the difficulty/rigidity of securing the desired timeshare reservation, and are accustomed to hotels that can be booked/canceled easily.

My solution in other systems has been to book the reservation I want in case they DO decide to join and then cancel the excess reservations once people have confirmed. It's frustrating, but better than looking for that non-existent reservation once Uncle Ray has decided he can come to Hawaii after all.

Fortunately, HGVC has a wonderfully flexible cancelation policy so that you would be able to get your points back on your canceled reservation.

With respect to Hilton's access to the property, I'm not familiar with the details, but not surprised that they've reserved a number of the weeks for use for promotional/rental purposes. Although they advertise it as sold out, they definitely do have some limited inventory available -- and they do pay the maintenance fees on those weeks. Additionally, anything converted to HHonors points is available for rental by Hilton. Although it seems counter-intuitive and like double-dipping, I don't believe that they are.

So.....yes, it's a legitimate issue, partly aggravated by indecision from friends/family. The good news is that you own two weeks at one of the best properties in the system, and there are many many positives to that.

Good luck to you, and I hope you enjoy the property!

All the best,

Greg

Greg, thanks for the reply. My point is that in order for you or any other person trying to use their points to book, the week has to show up on the reservation system. I've been monitoring the system since July and rarely if at all does a full week show up on the system. You can get on reservations and all the way out to next July virtually no full weeks are available. I did notice some availlability for Jan. that wasn't there a week ago. Why are Jan. weeks available now 3 months in advance but not 9 or 8 months in advance. I don't have a degree in statistics but I'm fairly sure that having no availability for months in a row is a statistical imposibility given the premise that open season for un-booked weeks opens up at 9 months. Big Spike

Big Spike said:

Greg, thanks for the reply. My point is that in order for you or any other person trying to use their points to book, the week has to show up on the reservation system. I've been monitoring the system since July and rarely if at all does a full week show up on the system. You can get on reservations and all the way out to next July virtually no full weeks are available. I did notice some availlability for Jan. that wasn't there a week ago. Why are Jan. weeks available now 3 months in advance but not 9 or 8 months in advance. I don't have a degree in statistics but I'm fairly sure that having no availability for months in a row is a statistical imposibility given the premise that open season for un-booked weeks opens up at 9 months. Big Spike

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Many HGVC owners are using the trick of "reserve as soon as 3 days are available and extend day by day until it reaches a full week". If you wait until a full week is available, you will not get prime season or high demanded weeks.
As soon as 3 days are available at exactly 12 months mark, reserve those 3 days and call HGVC each day to extend your existing reservation. That's how other HGVC owners do.

I assume most people who own Lagoon book the 12-9 month window. Thats why they pay the premium to own at Lagoon. They book their home unit and if or when things come up during the year they cancel. It is odd that January inventory is only now starting to open up. Perhaps three months before the vacation people are really thinking about traveling and looking for airline tickets / measuring up savings / costs they decline to travel to HHV and inventory becomes available. Flights from the East Coast are particularly expensive to Hawaii this year. I would expect cancellations within three months as people are holding out for flight prices. When they see flight prices do not come in they punt freeing up inventory for the huge number of people who own outside of Hawaii who may want to travel to Lagoon. People looking for open season availability are forced to wake up at 12 midnight each night East Coast Time hoping to get the one unit that opens up. Yumdrey gives good advice on how to gradually accumulate a week - but it is a pain in the butt for the average time share owner to have to contend with. Hawaii is proving to be the stumbling block in the system. As GregT said, be glad you own Hawaii . We only really wanted Hawaii in the Hilton system and that is why we own there. I figure all of the Time Share companies are holding / renting properties that are available - it just goes with the territory.

I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the tool box, but how do 3 day segments become available if the full week isn't available first to take a portion of. Also availability isn't restricted to just the Lagoon but the other two towers as well. I can assure you we've been going to Hawaii every year since 1983 and the last 10 years we've gone for 3 weeks. The last 2 to 3 years something has changed at Hilton. I don't believe tourism is at an all time high everything I've read and seen tells me the contrary is true. Big Spike

"Sold out" isn't necessarily 100% of the building, as we would see it. It could mean that they only wanted to sell 75% of it through HGVC to the public, and retain 25% of the HGVC for the Hilton Hotel side of the business, paying maintenance fees for their equivalent points, and making their own ongoing reservations for large conventions, special events, etc. From Hilton's view, if they don't rent it through the hotel business, they can always change their "points" reservation to a later date, and sell the days off through Open Season. Just like we can, they can easily change a reservation and drop 3-4 days.

As an aside, if you owned the Waikikian, you could book your week during "home" season, then call HGVC during Club season and change that reservation to be 10 days at the Lagoon or Kalia for the same number of points. That would leave 4 days as well, all done through a momentary transaction. That would guarantee your stay in Hawaii, with a chance of staying an additional 3 days without any risk. If that happened, a full week at the Waikikian would open up, but you need enough available points to see that.

I don't understand your issue. You seem to expect that Open Season is available all the time. It isn't. If it were, they would rename it to "always available time"

I'm sorry for bringing this issue up it's obvious that I don't know the system like some of you. I did look up my owner documents and out of the 326 rooms only 13,728 weekly segments are owner available yearly for the Lagoon or 262 per week (so jestme was correct apparently Hilton held 20% of the inventory). And as I explained BocaBum I've been booking here for ten years now and haven't had availability issues like I have the last couple of years... I still find it hard to believe that with the 3 towers on Oahu there are only 7 nights available for all 3 towers for March, April, May and July. I will shut up now and go drink some Kool-Aid......... Big Spike

Welcome to TUG

Big Spike said:

I'm sorry for bringing this issue up it's obvious that I don't know the system like some of you. I did look up my owner documents and out of the 326 rooms only 13,728 weekly segments are owner available yearly for the Lagoon or 262 per week (so jestme was correct apparently Hilton held 20% of the inventory). And as I explained BocaBum I've been booking here for ten years now and haven't had availability issues like I have the last couple of years... I still find it hard to believe that with the 3 towers on Oahu there are only 7 nights available for all 3 towers for March, April, May and July. I will shut up now and go drink some Kool-Aid......... Big Spike

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Hi Big Spike

Don't be sorry for bringing up this issue.

HHV availability has been discussed here before (see links below). Hilton can obtain inventory based on any of the various Club Partner Perks used by HGVC owners. JMHO... HHV online availablility really seems to get worst when HGVC is in sales mode. They definitely seem to hold back more inventory
If you've been reading the TUG threads for some time you already know that the timeshare sales folks will lie to potential owners. The reality is that timeshares are not like booking a hotel room. At high demand resorts in high demand destination there will always be more demand than availability. Owners are getting smarter and they understand that the early bird gets the worm.

Hilton has grow a lot in the last ten years. There are a lot more owners within the HGVC system so there is definitely a lot more competition. Once club season begins HHV owners are competing with the ever growing HGVC owner base. As the owner base increases, the number of reservations at HHV will increase leaving less availability during open season.

There is a very small number of Oahu units compared to the total number of units available in the Club.

There may be some potential relief years down the road with the additional two towers at HHV. See this thread for more info - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118932

Thanks for bringing up the issue and I hope you continue to be a TUG contributor

Big Spike said:

I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the tool box, but how do 3 day segments become available if the full week isn't available first to take a portion of.

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Once Club Seasons begins (9 months before checkout) Club members can book the 3 night minimum @ HHV and then each day add on additional nights using the Changeable reservation option. They can reserve any number of nights starting on any checkin date. As a result, shorter segements may become available if full 7 day blocks aren't booked. For example last summer I booked 11 nights at HHV (6 nights in one room followed by 5 nights in another).

See for yourself....Logon into the Classic system just before midnight eastern. Once the clock strikes midnight you'll see the next day's availability open up then watch the flurry of activity for Oahu for the first 30 minutes. Just keep refreshing your screen. This generally occurs for June, July and August bookings.

alwysonvac said:

Oahu - total rooms 639 (with 50% of the units at the new higher point Grand Waikikian tower)
Las Vegas - total rooms 1,446 (total rooms planned 2,009)
Orlando - total rooms 1,097 (total rooms planned 2,156)

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alwysonvac said:

Timeshare units - 656 [Grand Waikïkian (331), Lagoon Tower (253), and Kalia Tower (72)]

Two Planned Timeshare Towers
Timeshare Tower #1 - 300
Timeshare Tower #2 - 250

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So... total rooms 639 656 (total rooms planned 1,206)?

HatTrick said:

So... total rooms 639 656 (total rooms planned 1,206)?

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Ohhh HatTrick, always looking out for me

I got 639 from the June 15, 2006 Hilton press release (see below).
I didn't include the total planned for Oahu since Hilton still needs to get the approval - http://www.hhvmasterplan.com/Timeline
So I just provided the link to the thread about the two new towers

From the Hilton press release - http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=88577&p=irol-newsArticleOther&ID=873346&highlight=

"......The Grand Waikikian will be operated by Hilton Grand Vacations Company, the timeshare division of Hilton Hotels Corporation. It is the company's fourth timeshare development in the State of Hawaii. Upon anticipated completion in late 2008, The Grand Waikikian will join HGVC's existing 236-unit Lagoon Tower and 72-unit Kalia Tower projects at the Hilton Hawaiian Village, and the recently opened 120-unit Hilton Grand Vacations Club at Waikoloa Beach Resort on the Big Island.

Projected to include 331 units, The Grand Waikikian will be built on a site adjacent to the Lagoon Tower and will feature 34 floors of one-bedroom and two-bedroom timeshare suites, plus an additional four floors of retail, office and guest amenity space."

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Big Spike,

I too have owned at HHV since pre-construction. I have stayed there every year (sometimes twice a year) for 1-2 week stays. I have monitored availability on a regular basis. I have heard all of the reasons as to why there is limited or usually no availability. I think there is some weird manipulation on Hilton's part that definitely affects ability. I think a lot of people know it, sense it but we are unable to figure it out. So, we just go with what can be explained. Perhaps some day owners will take action.

alwysonvac said:

Ohhh HatTrick, always looking out for me

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Now I'm wondering where 253 or 236 comes from. 11 units (A thru K) per floor, 22 floors (3 thru 24) would be 242.