How to help a delinquent owner who can't afford maintenance fees anymore?

qwerty · Jun 23, 2016

taterhed said:
qwerty said:

Your question was 'asked and answered.' (says me)

Theo (based on my experience) does not give half-hearted replies.

Yes, indeed there is something in the contract--either that or it's unlikely to be a valid sale--as specified in the original documents. Go grab your contract and just take a look--the docs are usually online that will spell it out.

Ever buy a house and decide "I'm not going to pay the HOA fees?" It doesn't work well.

Click to expand...

When you mention that I should "Go grab your contract and just take a look", I am pretty sure that you did not understand my question. As mentioned before, I have never bought a T/S from a resort or a developer. I will repeat the question. Does anyone know for sure whether or not there is written in a contract when a T/S is acquired from a resort or the developer an obligation to pay all future M/F, assessments, taxes, etc.

VacationForever · Jun 23, 2016

It is part of the governing document to own the timeshare, not an agreement between a developer and buyer.

Passepartout · Jun 23, 2016

qwerty said:
Does anyone know for sure whether or not there is written in a contract when a T/S is acquired from a resort or the developer an obligation to pay all future M/F, assessments, taxes, etc.

Yes. There is such a requirement written into a contract. For sure.

taterhed · Jun 23, 2016

.....and it rides with the property, not the owner. Like most real estate.

I understood your question with clarity. The 'go take a look at 'your' contract' was rhetorical.

Here's a question for you: Timeshares have been sold since the 1960's. The concept has seen scrutiny in/out of courtrooms and legislative bodies--probably since day 2...

Do you really think you're the first person to suggest such an idea? (as your post above).

Your advice of "debt is disputed" is naïve and unsound--IMHO.

I'm done..... I hope you find your answer somewhere.

comicbookman · Jun 23, 2016

qwerty said:
qwerty When you mention that I should "Go grab your contract and just take a look" said:

But you did buy it from someone, so hopefully you had a contract. That contract (even if verbal) references the deed. The deed references the governing documents. Those are the same documents that spell out the rules of how the HOA works and how long the timeshare lasts as a timeshare entity. Without those documents the timeshare does not exist. You are either terribly naïve or being deliberately ignorant in your insistence that you have no contract.

Click to expand...

taterhed · Jun 23, 2016

comicbookman said:
qwerty said:

But you did buy it from someone, so hopefully you had a contract. That contract (even if verbal) references the deed. The deed references the governing documents. Those are the same documents that spell out the rules of how the HOA works and how long the timeshare lasts as a timeshare entity. Without those documents the timeshare does not exist. You are either terribly naïve or being deliberately ignorant in your insistence that you have no contract.

Click to expand...

I agree 100%--- and I have no doubts that I am required to comply with the governing documents in my ownership; or face the consequences.

just for clarity: the poster who questions the requirement to pay MF's etc is QWERTY

Originally Posted by qwerty
This may only pertain when the T/S is obtained by a resale. I'm guessing that there was never any contract between the new owner and the resort. From my understanding, the failure to pay the annual M/F would only mean that the owner could not use their week. Any attempt to collect for future use should be returned and noted that the debt is "disputed". Although a collection agency might be used, the "debt" laws would still be in effect. Unless the resort uses your local court, I don't see how any judgement or garnishment would be obtained. Even if the resort does use your local court, there would be no legal basis to try and force you to pay for future use. Saying all that, I'm wondering if when buying from the resort that you are legally obligating yourself to all future M/F, taxes and assessments.

Quote:

Click to expand...

TUGBrian · Jun 23, 2016

I believe you are looking for a specific answer that does not exist...vs the correct answer to your question.

theo · Jun 23, 2016

comicbookman said:
But you did buy it from someone, so hopefully you had a contract. That contract (even if verbal) references the deed. The deed references the governing documents. Those are the same documents that spell out the rules of how the HOA works and how long the timeshare lasts as a timeshare entity. Without those documents the timeshare does not exist. You are either terribly naïve or being deliberately ignorant in your insistence that you have no contract.

Well, accurately and succinctly stated --- and hopefully with more clarity than I was able to provide to qwerty, who apparently seeks to obtain a very different answer, one perhaps originating from some parallel universe and / or some extraterrestrial legal system. Thank you for boiling this matter right down to its' bare essentials.

P.S. TUGBrian: What's up with several quotes in this thread being attributed to the wrong originating poster --- including one within your own post #23?

TUGBrian · Jun 23, 2016

not sure on that one, im guessing they were quotes of quotes maybe?

anyone can edit a "quote" to say whoever they want said it by just modifying the "quote" tag

blahblahblahanyonehere said:
this is not a real quote

dioxide45 · Jun 23, 2016

sptung said:
It is part of the governing document to own the timeshare, not an agreement between a developer and buyer.

Exactly. Paying assessments is part of the condominium declaration documents. Just like a residential condominium. There is no need to put the obligation to pay MFs in the contract between the buyer and the developer just like there wouldn't be one in a contract between the buyer and seller of a residential condominium. You are obligated to the fees based on the underlying condominium declaration documents.

DVCDisneyRunner · Jun 23, 2016

Misunderstandings

Well i do not know Qwerty or necessarily agree with his understanding that there is a difference between resale verses purchasing from the developer, but I believe his actual question was overlooked and everyone was focused on his misunderstanding of the "contract" when purchasing resale. This is not part of his question at all.

So let's all agree that there is no difference so that is now off the table (even if you don't agree let's agree to disagree and move on).

Now the question is from what I am reading and taking the above as fact:

"I'm wondering if when buying from the resort [or resale] that you are legally obligating yourself to all future M/F, taxes and assessments.?"

I am by no means an attorney but my understanding would be

yes and no

Yes you are obligate to pay all future M/F, assessments, taxes, etc until the point that the resort forecloses on your property and

No once foreclosed you are no longer responsible for the future M/F, assessments, taxes, etc. However you are still obligate to pay the balance to include all the above and attorney fees, late fees.....

if this is not correct someone please correct me but at least Qwerty has an answer (of course it may be wrong so take with grain of salt)

dioxide45 · Jun 23, 2016

DVCDisneyRunner said:
Well i do not know Qwerty or necessarily agree with his understanding that there is a difference between resale verses purchasing from the developer, but I believe his actual question was overlooked and everyone was focused on his misunderstanding of the "contract" when purchasing resale. This is not part of his question at all.

So let's all agree that there is no difference so that is now off the table (even if you don't agree let's agree to disagree and move on).

Now the question is from what I am reading and taking the above as fact:

"I'm wondering if when buying from the resort [or resale] that you are legally obligating yourself to all future M/F, taxes and assessments.?"

I am by no means an attorney but my understanding would be

yes and no

Yes you are obligate to pay all future M/F, assessments, taxes, etc until the point that the resort forecloses on your property and

No once foreclosed you are no longer responsible for the future M/F, assessments, taxes, etc. However you are still obligate to pay the balance to include all the above and attorney fees, late fees.....

if this is not correct someone please correct me but at least Qwerty has an answer (of course it may be wrong so take with grain of salt)

Depending on the state, once foreclosure is done, you don't owe any past due or attorney fees. It all depends if it is a recourse or non recourse state. In a non recourse state, foreclosure wipes out all obligation. In many cases, in a recourse state, the company or HOA won't go after the owner that was foreclosed on to try to collect the fees and amounts due. It just isn't worth the trouble.

taterhed · Jun 24, 2016

DVCDisneyRunner said:
Well i do not know Qwerty or necessarily agree with his understanding that there is a difference between resale verses purchasing from the developer, but I believe his actual question was overlooked and everyone was focused on his misunderstanding of the "contract" when purchasing resale. This is not part of his question at all.

So let's all agree that there is no difference so that is now off the table (even if you don't agree let's agree to disagree and move on).

Now the question is from what I am reading and taking the above as fact:

"I'm wondering if when buying from the resort [or resale] that you are legally obligating yourself to all future M/F, taxes and assessments.?"

I am by no means an attorney but my understanding would be

yes and no

Yes you are obligate to pay all future M/F, assessments, taxes, etc until the point that the resort forecloses on your property and

No once foreclosed you are no longer responsible for the future M/F, assessments, taxes, etc. However you are still obligate to pay the balance to include all the above and attorney fees, late fees.....

if this is not correct someone please correct me but at least Qwerty has an answer (of course it may be wrong so take with grain of salt)

I appreciate your attempt to mediate. Your point (above) and dioxide's comments (previous point) are valid. When the dust settles, you owe what the Court say's you owe. You can dispute (appeal) it, you can negotiate it, you can reduce/negate it (bankruptcy/litigation) or you can 'do a runner' and head for the islands. I guess, in essence, you then no-longer owe any future sums or fees. Unless your judgment gets upheld, negotiations fail, bankruptcy fails to fully discharge the debt, the court upholds and enforces the ruling.......or you get captured, extradited and thrown in jail (jk).

But, that's not what stimulated this discussion and my replies.

QWERTY: My question is very specific. When you acquire a T/S from a resort or developer is there something in the contract that obligates you to pay any and all future assessments, M/F, taxes, etc. even if you do not want to use the T/S anymore.

This is a specific, simple and very naïve question. Theo answered it succinctly and (I believe) quite accurately here:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1899337&postcount=21

I believe that there can be NO ambiguity about this answer: If the legal transfer of deed/ownership took place and that ownership is substantiated in court, you are obligated. You may attempt to avoid, negotiate or discharge......but you are obligated until it is satisfied/discharged or negated etc... I do not understand what is confusing about that. Neither do the courts, developers or owners who have witnessed the substantiation of the process to collect these debts.

Now, I think we've wasted enough of the OP's time and post arguing whether a contract and the underlying documents are valid if you disagree with it.

The solution for the OP's question?

For the Owner:

Pay for it and use it (or not)
Don't pay for it and attempt to deedback the unit or deed in lieu of foreclosure
Negotiate the amount owed down to a manageable amount and then sell, deedback or give-away the unit ( or even pay someone to take the unit)
Stop all payments and force them to seek legal satisfaction (foreclosure, judgment, deedback etc...) Expect your credit to take a hit and face bankruptcy, garnishment or seizure

For the board:

Evaluate the cost/likelihood of recovering funds vs deedback of units and possible rental/sales revenues to be gained
Consider offering the unit to current owners at discount and/or offering free use weeks (points) with purchase or assumption of fees/debt (as appropriate)
Plan ahead for unit returns/defaults based on mortality, financial decline or resort demand. Anticipate 'flood' of returns if deedbacks are accepted
Consider reducing operating hours, number of active units or conversion of resort/units to alternative ownership (outright or seasonal or discounted rental to owners etc...)

On casual inspection, it appears the resort has some value and is actively marketing units in a number of ways. If I were on the board, I'd weigh my losses vs recovery options and proceed in a way that was responsible to the membership and respectful of the defaulting owner.

IMHO.

:deadhorse:

qwerty · Jun 24, 2016

taterhed said:
I appreciate your attempt to mediate. Your point (above) and dioxide's comments (previous point) are valid. When the dust settles, you owe what the Court say's you owe. You can dispute (appeal) it, you can negotiate it, you can reduce/negate it (bankruptcy/litigation) or you can 'do a runner' and head for the islands. I guess, in essence, you then no-longer owe any future sums or fees. Unless your judgment gets upheld, negotiations fail, bankruptcy fails to fully discharge the debt, the court upholds and enforces the ruling.......or you get captured, extradited and thrown in jail (jk).

But, that's not what stimulated this discussion and my replies.

This is a specific, simple and very naïve question. Theo answered it succinctly and (I believe) quite accurately here: I believe that there can be NO ambiguity about this answer: If the legal transfer of deed/ownership took place and that ownership is substantiated in court, you are obligated. You may attempt to avoid, negotiate or discharge......but you are obligated until it is satisfied/discharged or negated etc... I do not understand what is confusing about that. Neither do the courts, developers or owners who have witnessed the substantiation of the process to collect these debts.

Now, I think we've wasted enough of the OP's time and post arguing whether a contract and the underlying documents are valid if you disagree with it.

The solution for the OP's question?

For the Owner:

Pay for it and use it (or not)

Don't pay for it and attempt to deedback the unit or deed in lieu of foreclosure

Negotiate the amount owed down to a manageable amount and then sell, deedback or give-away the unit ( or even pay someone to take the unit)

Stop all payments and force them to seek legal satisfaction (foreclosure, judgment, deedback etc...) Expect your credit to take a hit and face bankruptcy, garnishment or seizure

For the board:

Evaluate the cost/likelihood of recovering funds vs deedback of units and possible rental/sales revenues to be gained

Consider offering the unit to current owners at discount and/or offering free use weeks (points) with purchase or assumption of fees/debt (as appropriate)

Plan ahead for unit returns/defaults based on mortality, financial decline or resort demand. Anticipate 'flood' of returns if deedbacks are accepted

Consider reducing operating hours, number of active units or conversion of resort/units to alternative ownership (outright or seasonal or discounted rental to owners etc...)

On casual inspection, it appears the resort has some value and is actively marketing units in a number of ways. If I were on the board, I'd weigh my losses vs recovery options and proceed in a way that was responsible to the membership and respectful of the defaulting owner.

IMHO.

:deadhorse:

I have not stated my position regarding the question that I asked.

But just by asking a question, these are some of the responses that have been posted which do not even deal with my question:

I sense that you'd like a completely different answer. Good luck with that; the answer provided is factually and legally correct, whether or not you happen to like it.

however just as with defaulting on any other financial obligation...the penalties for doing so can range from mild to severe depending on the whims of the folks you defaulted on.

Your advice of "debt is disputed" is naïve and unsound--IMHO.

You are either terribly naïve or being deliberately ignorant in your insistence that you have no contract.

I believe you are looking for a specific answer that does not exist...vs the correct answer to your question.

Well, accurately and succinctly stated --- and hopefully with more clarity than I was able to provide to qwerty, who apparently seeks to obtain a very different answer, one perhaps originating from some parallel universe and / or some extraterrestrial legal system.

This is a specific, simple and very naïve question.

comicbookman · Jun 24, 2016

qwerty said:
I have not stated my position regarding the question that I asked.

But just by asking a question, these are some of the responses that have been posted which do not even deal with my question:

I sense that you'd like a completely different answer. Good luck with that; the answer provided is factually and legally correct, whether or not you happen to like it.

however just as with defaulting on any other financial obligation...the penalties for doing so can range from mild to severe depending on the whims of the folks you defaulted on.

Your advice of "debt is disputed" is naïve and unsound--IMHO.

You are either terribly naïve or being deliberately ignorant in your insistence that you have no contract.

I believe you are looking for a specific answer that does not exist...vs the correct answer to your question.

Well, accurately and succinctly stated --- and hopefully with more clarity than I was able to provide to qwerty, who apparently seeks to obtain a very different answer, one perhaps originating from some parallel universe and / or some extraterrestrial legal system.

This is a specific, simple and very naïve question.

Actually, they deal specifically with your question and your insistence that the direct answers given are not to the question you asked. You have clearly stated your position that the direct answers you have been given do not satisfy you. That opinion is your absolute right. However, it does not change the FACT that your question was asked and has been answered numerous times in this thread.

How to help a delinquent owner who can't afford maintenance fees anymore?

qwerty

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VacationForever

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Passepartout

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taterhed

comicbookman

taterhed

TUGBrian

theo

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TUGBrian

dioxide45

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DVCDisneyRunner

dioxide45

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taterhed

qwerty

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comicbookman