Why are ownders dumping Wyndham?

BocaBum99 said:

I think you need to challenge your own assumptions and definitions. You assumed that Wyndham said you can't rent your points. What they actually said was that you can't TRANSFER your points. You equate renting with transferring. That is the fundamental flaw in your thinking which leads you to say things that are false.

Any owner can offer their 100,000 Wyndham points for rent. If they offer them for $4/1000, the renter pays them $400. The detail of whether or not the reservation is booked on the owners account or the renters account is not material to the fact that the points are rented. PWNED.

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So, what happens after you get the points rented? You have to book a reservation for them because the points can't be transferred, correct?

Like I said earlier, we're playing silly word games here.

ace2000 said:

So, what happens after you get the points rented? You have to book a reservation for them because the points can't be transferred, correct?

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Not necessarily. It depends on who you mean when you say "you".

DVC used to allow unlimited point transfers, and a few very enterprising people made a nice business renting points from other members, transferring them in, and renting reservations to other people.

To attempt to put a stop to this (along with point washing and a few other odds and ends), DVC added a rule that you could only have at most one transfer, in OR out, in any given account for any given use year.

The mega-renters' response? They now have themselves added as "Associate Members" to the original owners' accounts---which gives them the authority to make reservations in an owner's name without having to involve the owner. From an owner's perspective, this is almost identical to a transfer. In particular, the owner doesn't actually need to do anything. You need to trust the mega-renter a little more, but there is at least one DVC mega-renter who has built a very successful business out of this. And, it has been perhaps *too* successful, because Mickey recently changed the rules limiting the number of accounts on which any one individual can be an Associate member.

But, with Wyndham---and its online reservation capability---this model would be even easier. It's a little more work for the mega-renter, because you have to manage lots of little distinct pots of inventory, but it's not *that* much more work.

BocaBum99 said:

There is no need to purchase Wyndham points. You can rent them for below maintenance fees.

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Here's the original quote... Boca or BNoble, tell us all where you 'can rent them for below maintenance fees'???? Please enlighten us all...

ace2000 said:

Here's the original quote... Boca or BNoble, tell us all where you 'can rent them for below maintenance fees'???? Please enlighten us all...

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Go to forums.atozed.com, check "I have point to rent", and see what the rental market it is.

But, the rental market is not going to stay in current economic situation. And although I have not check, I don't think it is 100% down to MF. Maybe 70% of the time though.

The owner post there are renting the point. The only question is who will doing the reservation.

Jya-Ning

Jya-Ning said:

Go to forums.atozed.com, check "I have point to rent", and see what the rental market it is.

But, the rental market is not going to stay in current economic situation. And although I have not check, I don't think it is 100% down to MF. Maybe 70% of the time though.

The owner post there are renting the point. The only question is who will doing the reservation.

Jya-Ning

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And you have just stated what I said earlier. And like I said earlier, we are playing word games here. I won't be holding my breath waiting for a reply from bnoble or boca on where one can 'rent' points cheaper than the maintenance fees either.

ace2000 said:

And you have just stated what I said earlier. And like I said earlier, we are playing word games here. I won't be holding my breath waiting for a reply from bnoble or boca on where one can 'rent' points cheaper than the maintenance fees either.

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Maybe different maybe the same. When I think of rent a reservation, I expect the reservation already made. When I think rent point, I will expect I as an rental can determine where to use these points. In other word, I may use the same point amount for 2 or 3 trips.

But they basic says the same thing, even when the transfer still allow.

With transfer, the other side will need to be owner though.

I am pretty sure rent out reservation still beat the MF most of the time. If not, most of the mega renter will already dump their business.

But for non-VIP owner, although the MF is the same, with no upgrade and discount, you may find sometimes you can not beat the MF. But that happen even before the adjustment. Of course, now add $99 instead of $30 makes a big difference on a lot of equations.

Jya-Ning

I won't be holding my breath waiting for a reply from bnoble or boca on where one can 'rent' points cheaper than the maintenance fees either.

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Jim's not going to tell you, because that's part of his business advantage. I don't have such a business, so I'm happy to speculate.

We're at the point where most of the Wyndham deeds have crept over $5/K. Tom Cornelius has 14 different Wyndham deeds available for sale. Only two are under $5/K. The average across the 14 is $5.30. Tom generally avoids the more expensive MF/K deeds, because they are too hard to sell, so the real average is probably higher.

Folks at atozed are generally advertising availability between $4.50-$6. Most are at $5.25 or below. Those are asking prices, for people who still have to do all the work to reserve, and they generally include GC fees (though not always). If you tell them you'll take all their points, and do all the work, you can probably negotiate a lower price.

So, it seems pretty easy to obtain points for less than your typical MF. And that's only for MFs. It ignores any acquisition costs. At Tom's typical prices these days, including closing etc., add another $0.30-$0.50 or so per K if you amortize at 7%.

we are playing word games here.

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If you think this is just a matter of word games, you haven't thought things through. From the perspective of an owner who is trying to dispose of some unwanted points, there is a *big* difference between renting reservations, and selling the use of those points to someone else. Renting reservations is a pain---the tire kickers, mind-changers, can you get me a bigger unit, can we change the dates, etc. etc. etc. Letting someone else deal with all that is a lot less work, and that itself has value---and can still be done in the current sysetm, without a transfer, by just giving someone else access to your account.

BocaBum99 said:

Wyndham can be worth it if you use RCI to trade back into Wyndham resorts and that is your primary reason for owning it.

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why is it better to do this than just use your Wyndham points to book directly from Wyndham? FYI I am a complete new-bie.

letsgobobby said:

why is it better to do this than just use your Wyndham points to book directly from Wyndham? FYI I am a complete new-bie.

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I have been following this thread and see stuff all over the place on comments and suggestions. Here is my take on it all - most comments are how to make the most of your points and situation. I for one just want a fair deal to travel in nice, large accomidations for a fair price. If you buy resale and find a nice MF to point combo Wyndham is a great product (or at least for our family) and fairly easy to use. It is when people are trying to completly maximize their situation such as make money renting, getting accomidations for 29k exchanges etc. To make the absolute most and get great accomidations for next to nothing is when it gets complicated.

I saw a comment that it is a rip off for contracts under 300k. Well we have 4 contracts that add up to 651k and our MFs avg about 4.5 per 1k. Not great but not bad; I think this a very cost effective way to stay at great places. We live close to a wyndham that is attached to a waterpark and use it all the time. Actually we are in a 3br right now and having a blast, we walked by some of the "hotel" rooms of the waterpark and WOW what a difference. They are probably paying a fair amount more per night then what ours would equate to with MFs. I have also traded into this place with a 29k but that took some persistance calling etc, and that was a crazy deal for us. We like to make plans ahead of time so we don't mind making the ressies and we get much better accomidations in peak seasons for much cheaper than going thru the resort. Now I'm sure I could rent for cheaper (???) but I'm very happy with the price we pay for using our contracts. We have a family of 5 (soon to be 6) So hotel rooms are pretty much out of the question. We often bring friends up with us to enjoy. We make 3-7 day ressies and really nevery have a problem with HC. The GC thing kinda pisses me off because I would love to bring friends and get them their own room, they would pay me a fair price but the $99 for a GC makes it not so cheap.

We are staying 4 days here in a 2br over NYE which will avg to $165 nite for a 2br. I couldn't get a hotel room here for that price much less a nice condo. Soooooooooooo if you buy resale and use your pts for yourself and not try to make money renting etc or worry about getting the very very very very very best deal the Wyndham system works great. I use for our family and might occasionally make a ressie for a friend with our free GC, and make few hundred - win/win. Now if I paid 80-130k from the developer for my 651 (not exactly sure what retail is) I would be hard pressed to recomend the system as a great deal.

We have used RCI system and it takes some patience and savy. We have had a good trade or 2 but in general I think Wyndham trade power is very low in RCI. But you can extend your value. Good luck with your new purchase, it is not that bad to get use to and once you do you will enjoy great vacations for a fair price.

I always check TUG to get a hint or two, trying to absorb it all at once is OVERWHELMING!!! Reading TUG and using the system you will figure out how to be a power user of the system. Heck you probably already know much more than the avg Wyndham owner.

why is it better to do this than just use your Wyndham points to book directly from Wyndham

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It can give you a lower cost per night. As Culli writes, it's not a *bad* deal to use your points to book directly with Wyndham---in fact, it can often be a pretty good deal when you compare to rental rates. But, it *can* be an even better deal to go through RCI.

Here's an example. A summer week at Wyndham Smoky Mountains is 166K points booked internally. Last year, I obtained an exchange there with a 70K deposit plus an exchange fee. If you figure that points are worth approximately $5/K, the total cost to me was the equivalent of about 108K points, or a 35% discount. And, I might well have been able to get that week with an even smaller deposit.

However, there is no free lunch. Booking internally is very simple---it's a reservation system. An exchange system is a little less convenient, as you have to take what RCI can get you. For example, we normally prefer to travel Saturday to Saturday. But, Wyndham deposited 2BRs with a Sunday check-in last summer. We ended up coming home on Saturday, so that we could have Sunday to collect ourselves and get ready for the work week. This reduced our vacation by a day, and reduced our discount to 25% vs. what it would have taken to book the 6-night stay.

BocaBum99 said:

Not sure where you got your information, but this is NOT correct. Number 1 is absolutely not true. People who dump their timeshares to PCCs bought as recently as this year. LOTS of them.

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Thanks for calling me out on a 6 month old post and doing it in a unnecessarily rude manner. If you thought that post was inaccurate, all you had to do is simply say so and explain why (preferably 6 months ago). And maybe we could have had a civil discussion about it, instead of an antagonistic one.

I posted that most PCC inventory were mostly property held by owners for a long time until they got sick of it. It's not like that is an outrageous lie, as you imply.

I bought a timeshare from a PCC about two years ago and I asked for a specific property that was pretty new (maybe 5 years old at the time). The owner of the PCC told me that they never really saw that resort because their products (i.e. the bogus vacation club) catered toward owners at timeshares that got sick of going to the same place ever year and got lousy trades through RCI or II. He specifically mentioned that 10-20 year owners were their "sweet spot." When I was looking to buy a timeshare back then, I rarely saw anything that was relatively new on ebay. Plus, most people who buy timeshares from developers buy on credit. So most new timeshares purchased in the past year would not be a good candidate for a PCC (or a charitable donation for that matter) because the property would be subject to a mortgage lien.

I don't KNOW if this was true, but it sounded credible to me. But I might be wrong. Who knows? I put it in the post because I wanted to be helpful to someone and to add some relevant info to a good thread, as many people in this Wyndham board have been very helpful to me when I was thinking of buying a Wyndham timeshare in the past.

But don't worry, I won't bother posting in the Wyndham thread again if posters won't be treated with civility.

To ESK444

I wouldn't allow "certain" people to discourage you from posting and being helpful to other Wyndham owners. I've had a person go back and forth with me recently and I just let it go. I know that my info posted helped saved an owner 450K points on one trip, so I'm good.

Just ignore them and keep it moving!

letsgobobby said:

why is it better to do this than just use your Wyndham points to book directly from Wyndham? FYI I am a complete new-bie.

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Because due to quirks in trading power assignments and internal preferences, you can often times make a very small deposit of say 28000 points and trade up to a 2br unit that would normally cost 203,000 points. You pay an exchange fee. But, you save lots of points.

esk444 said:

Thanks for calling me out on a 6 month old post and doing it in a unnecessarily rude manner. If you thought that post was inaccurate, all you had to do is simply say so and explain why (preferably 6 months ago). And maybe we could have had a civil discussion about it, instead of an antagonistic one.

I posted that most PCC inventory were mostly property held by owners for a long time until they got sick of it. It's not like that is an outrageous lie, as you imply.

I bought a timeshare from a PCC about two years ago and I asked for a specific property that was pretty new (maybe 5 years old at the time). The owner of the PCC told me that they never really saw that resort because their products (i.e. the bogus vacation club) catered toward owners at timeshares that got sick of going to the same place ever year and got lousy trades through RCI or II. He specifically mentioned that 10-20 year owners were their "sweet spot." When I was looking to buy a timeshare back then, I rarely saw anything that was relatively new on ebay. Plus, most people who buy timeshares from developers buy on credit. So most new timeshares purchased in the past year would not be a good candidate for a PCC (or a charitable donation for that matter) because the property would be subject to a mortgage lien.

I don't KNOW if this was true, but it sounded credible to me. But I might be wrong. Who knows? I put it in the post because I wanted to be helpful to someone and to add some relevant info to a good thread, as many people in this Wyndham board have been very helpful to me when I was thinking of buying a Wyndham timeshare in the past.

But don't worry, I won't bother posting in the Wyndham thread again if posters won't be treated with civility.

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I apologize that you felt my post was rude. That wasn't my intent. My intent was to correct misinformation that you promulgated as fact. Anytime anyone presents such falsehoods, I will point them out in a similar way to emphasize the points that are incorrect.

Perhaps you should consider saying "you heard" something to be true rather than simply stating as fact something that isn't.

due to quirks in trading power assignments and internal preferences

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For what it's worth, I'm finding that, since the 5/30 "adjustments", the internal preference has been weakened somewhat. Not too many data points yet, but a few.

bnoble said:

Jim's not going to tell you, because that's part of his business advantage. I don't have such a business, so I'm happy to speculate.

We're at the point where most of the Wyndham deeds have crept over $5/K. Tom Cornelius has 14 different Wyndham deeds available for sale. Only two are under $5/K. The average across the 14 is $5.30. Tom generally avoids the more expensive MF/K deeds, because they are too hard to sell, so the real average is probably higher.

Folks at atozed are generally advertising availability between $4.50-$6. Most are at $5.25 or below. Those are asking prices, for people who still have to do all the work to reserve, and they generally include GC fees (though not always). If you tell them you'll take all their points, and do all the work, you can probably negotiate a lower price.

So, it seems pretty easy to obtain points for less than your typical MF. And that's only for MFs. It ignores any acquisition costs. At Tom's typical prices these days, including closing etc., add another $0.30-$0.50 or so per K if you amortize at 7%.



If you think this is just a matter of word games, you haven't thought things through. From the perspective of an owner who is trying to dispose of some unwanted points, there is a *big* difference between renting reservations, and selling the use of those points to someone else. Renting reservations is a pain---the tire kickers, mind-changers, can you get me a bigger unit, can we change the dates, etc. etc. etc. Letting someone else deal with all that is a lot less work, and that itself has value---and can still be done in the current sysetm, without a transfer, by just giving someone else access to your account.

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Correct. It's fun to watch ACE try to wiggle his way out of his "Not True" assertion by saying WE are playing word games. I find it ironic that he is trying to spin the situation where True means Not True. That sounds like a word game to me.

bnoble said:

For what it's worth, I'm finding that, since the 5/30 "adjustments", the internal preference has been weakened somewhat. Not too many data points yet, but a few.

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That's too bad for Wyndham owners. It would be good for the system overall if there were other competition that would be driving down exchange fees. But, since that isn't true, it just makes exchange with RCI less and less attractive over time.

bnoble said:

Not necessarily. It depends on who you mean when you say "you".

DVC used to allow unlimited point transfers, and a few very enterprising people made a nice business renting points from other members, transferring them in, and renting reservations to other people.

To attempt to put a stop to this (along with point washing and a few other odds and ends), DVC added a rule that you could only have at most one transfer, in OR out, in any given account for any given use year.

The mega-renters' response? They now have themselves added as "Associate Members" to the original owners' accounts---which gives them the authority to make reservations in an owner's name without having to involve the owner. From an owner's perspective, this is almost identical to a transfer. In particular, the owner doesn't actually need to do anything. You need to trust the mega-renter a little more, but there is at least one DVC mega-renter who has built a very successful business out of this. And, it has been perhaps *too* successful, because Mickey recently changed the rules limiting the number of accounts on which any one individual can be an Associate member.

But, with Wyndham---and its online reservation capability---this model would be even easier. It's a little more work for the mega-renter, because you have to manage lots of little distinct pots of inventory, but it's not *that* much more work.

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You are much smarter than I am. This is very clever. Funny that Ace just won't admit that renting points is possible when all the facts are presented in such gory detail.

All I know is that I can get Wyndham points for cheaper than my own maintenance fees. So, I wish I hadn't bought all the points I did. And, I think my points have the lowest or second lowest MF in the entire Wyndham point system.