Today is the day I hate Marriott Timeshares!

Now that my original post has gone off into the weeds

I own and vacation at Marriott Timeshares because I want to have quality control on my vacation experience.

I have rented off of VRBO and gotten some great looking places but once I showed up, it was a totally different story. Place was pretty dumpy. Bed had not been replaced in years, etc.

I do not plan to "sell" (give away) my Marriotts because I love the fact that I am guaranteed 2 fantastic weeks of vacationing a year!

We have owned since 1999 and have traded into 1 brand other than Marriott. We stayed at the Royal Sands in Cancun. All other trades have been into other Marriott properties. EVERY Marriott I have ever traded into has been very well appointed and very well kept.

So it is about quality control for me and my wife. Nice place or no place.

SueDonJ said:

Truthfully, I wasn't offended. I do, however, feel as strongly about my opinion as you do about yours.

It seems to me that if the statement, "Ya we lost money but we have great memories," causes your jaw to drop every time you hear it, then you must feel very strongly about timeshare purchases not being financially sound unless they happen under a certain set of circumstances that you approve of (such as, the buyer must not be able to vacation in similar fashion for less money.) I don't think it's wrong that you feel that way; there are many folks who feel exactly the same.

I just wanted to make the point that other folks do not feel the same way, but that does not make them wrong either. And, your way of thinking does not make my jaw drop.

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I think we are "good" and there are no hard feelings on my part.

Again, I do think you should re-read the thread and follow the logic flow as it begins with MOXJO7282's comment about "getting our monies worth."

Whether investment is the right word or not, I don't know. That seems to be a word folks are sensitive to. At the very least it is an economic or financial decision that needs to make sense to me.

Let's look at it another way. If I could buy a car for $20K to use one week per year or have the option to rent it for that same period, I would certainly want to compare the two options. Depending on the up front cost and the maintenance and insurance (= MF) versus the current rental fees and my forecast for future rental fees for the life of the car, I would determine if the economics work better one way than the other. Maybe it's just me, but $20K is a sum I don't spend on too many items.

Renting a $2000/wk timeshare would not have been an annual event for me. Yes, I would have rented a condo every so often, but more times than not I would have ended up in a crowded hotel room at $1000 for 4-5 nights because it was cheaper.

Marriott (through 2 resale weeks) has provided me and my family with some beautiful forced vacations. Whether it was a week in Florida on the beach or 2 weeks in Hawaii, the quality was always there. Even my kids are spoiled now.

The consequence of buying one cheap points week from Marriott was a 10 night first class trip to Europe as a second honeymoon. Never would have done that trip because of its cost ($14K-$17K). With the EOY conversion to MR points and the purchase of a few more, we should be all set again buy 2015. Any suggestions?

thinze3 said:

The consequence of buying one cheap points week from Marriott was a 10 night first class trip to Europe as a second honeymoon. Never would have done that trip because of its cost ($14K-$17K). With the EOY conversion to MR points and the purchase of a few more, we should be all set again buy 2015. Any suggestions?

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Marriott Grand Residences Tahoe from developer. You'll likely get some fantastic perks that you wouldn't get by buying resale.

Beefnot said:

Marriott Grand Residences Tahoe from developer. You'll likely get some fantastic perks that you wouldn't get by buying resale.

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Haha, but by asking "Any suggestions?" I actually mean, "Where should we take our next luxury trip using our MR points?"

EKniager said:

I think we are "good" and there are no hard feelings on my part.

Again, I do think you should re-read the thread and follow the logic flow as it begins with MOXJO7282's comment about "getting our monies worth."

Whether investment is the right word or not, I don't know. That seems to be a word folks are sensitive to. At the very least it is an economic or financial decision that needs to make sense to me.

Let's look at it another way. If I could buy a car for $20K to use one week per year or have the option to rent it for that same period, I would certainly want to compare the two options. Depending on the up front cost and the maintenance and insurance (= MF) versus the current rental fees and my forecast for future rental fees for the life of the car, I would determine if the economics work better one way than the other. Maybe it's just me, but $20K is a sum I don't spend on too many items.

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No worries, we're good. I think we differ, though, in how we perceived "monies worth" when it was introduced in this thread - or maybe in how we perceive Joe's use of the term, "monies worth" in this thread? To me the worth of money doesn't always mean the dollar/investment value of it; it can also mean the intangible values, or the experience, gained through spending it. Although Joe owns more Weeks, I know from hanging out on TUG that he and I share a similar history with Marriott in that we both bought from the developer when the particular weeks we wanted may not have been available at significantly-discounted prices from other sources, and we both gained usage value from good developer incentives that existed when we bought but don't exist any longer. So, when I saw him use "monies worth" in his post, I assumed that he was talking about the same intangible value/worth that I feel we got from our "investment" in timeshares, despite the fact that what we purchased in the past could be purchased for far fewer dollars today, and despite the fact that IF what we purchased was available during all these years through rentals (doubt it because they're all high owner-usage intervals) we probably would have paid less if we had rented and didn't buy. All that to say, that's where you and I veered off onto different courses - where we differ on what "monies worth" might mean. I think neither of us is wrong, but perhaps I'm using the term incorrectly and/or you would use a different term when trying to explain non-financial value.

I'm like all the others in this thread who are saying that if they hadn't purchased their timeshares they would not have put the same money or the effort into vacationing in a similar fashion. That's true for me, too. Don and I wouldn't be traveling on a routine basis to such nice places if we hadn't purchased what we did.

Jpc, now bringing it back around to your thread (sorry!) - I play mind games with the MF due dates by telling myself that they don't deserve enough significance to inspire hate. Of course it doesn't work (self-delusion rarely does) but nobody ever has to know that. :hysterical: "What, MF's are due today? Gee, I almost forgot, that's how much they don't bother me."

This is similar to the recent "points" sales pitch my wife and I sat through. The sales rep, like during past "weeks" sales schtick, spelled out a somewhat-true-somewhat-false financial analysis to show us the savings of buying in. When we questioned the assumptions in their economic model, they told us that we were too analytical and that we shouldn't look at this as a financial decision and that we should focus on all the future vacation memories. LOL, obviously that plays to a high percentage of their target buying population.

EKniager said:

This is similar to the recent "points" sales pitch my wife and I sat through. The sales rep, like during past "weeks" sales schtick, spelled out a somewhat-true-somewhat-false financial analysis to show us the savings of buying in. When we questioned the assumptions in their economic model, they told us that we were too analytical and that we shouldn't look at this as a financial decision and that we should focus on all the future vacation memories. LOL, obviously that plays to a high percentage of their target buying population.

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I'd say that the sales experience you had was better than most reported on TUG, where the reps all tried to pass off the purchase of a timeshare as a solid financial investment vehicle (despite all the legal disclosures in the paperwork which admonish a buyer that a timeshare should not be purchased for any other reason than its usage value, that an assumed financial value is not guaranteed.) That's where 99.9% of the, "if a salesman's lips are moving he's LYING!" stuff originated! I'm sort of glad to hear that your sales rep was at least honest about that one aspect of what he was selling - reading TUG you get the impression that there isn't a shred of honesty to be found anymore in the process.

Vacation ownership is valuable, no question. True, how someone defines their "money's worth" will vary. Relatively speaking, however, what is universal is that spending $25,000 for the exact same memories $10,000 could have provided is of less worth. No one will (or at least should) knowingly spend more than they necessary in order to maximize utility.

But what doubly sucks, and getting back to the original post, is folks who paid sky high developer (or pre-TS crash) prices while watching their MFs increase inordinately since that time. Yes, the vacation memories are priceless, but it hurts to think of how much money was left on someone else's table to produce those memories. Alas. It is human nature to fight the feeling of regret.

I've regretted buying a $9,000 sewing machine - "that also embroiders!" - because the sales person lied when he said that it was user-intuitive and it would be a snap to learn all its functions. The thing was a piece of crap and just like every other item that offers too many functions beyond what's reasonable, it didn't do any of them well and then it up and died long before any of my functional, serviceable, task-specific workhorse machines ever did.

I've regretted buying $250 outfits that say "Dry Clean Only" but when they went to the drycleaners they came back with damages that were the fault of the maker for either using fabrics that don't play nicely with dry cleaning solvents, or for not properly tagging the item with cleaning instructions.

Oh yeah, there was that $9 mascara that I regretted buying in junior high with my paper route money, too, because my sisters always "borrowed" my stuff and I should have known that a $9 mascara would disappear as easily as a $1 mascara would. (To be fair, I "borrowed" an equal amount of stuff from my sisters - that's why I should have known better. )

Fortunately, I don't regret the money we spent on our timeshare purchases because the usage we've gotten from them over the years would not have been possible if we didn't buy them at that time. It's true that the same Weeks are NOW available at discounted prices but they weren't then, and if we waited until now to buy them then how could we have been using them in the interim? Maybe we could have been renting from other owners, but I doubt that the consecutive Memorial Day holiday multi-weeks would have been as consistently available on the rental market as we were able to reserve them, especially while the resort was in its construction and infancy phases. Plus I'm certain we simply would not have made the effort.

I actually think there are many people who are happy with their timeshare purchases and have no regrets. Some of them could be oblivious to the overall financial picture of timeshares, sure. But I think some of them are like me and learned about the market (here on TUG or somewhere else) before buying anything. I'm content knowing that at the time we were able to get exactly what we wanted without spending outrageous money that we didn't need to spend, despite knowing that others who were in our same place may have chosen to purchase something else for less money.

I guess I just don't see the point of automatically assigning regret to any large purchase which carries a financial obligation and has lost whatever investment value the owner thought it would have. It's like the upside/down mortgage holders in this crappy housing market - if you bought your house to be a home and you don't need or intend to sell it, why waste a minute worrying over what it's worth today? But if you're upside/down and facing foreclosure because you didn't intend to stay in the property longterm and you can no longer afford to pay the spiffy variable-rate mortgage with a balloon payment coming due, then of course you regret the decision to purchase what you did. With timeshares IMO it was always a mistake to assume a consistent ROI, so regretting a timeshare purchase because the purchase dollars are sunk is a foreign concept.

SueDonJ said:

I don't regret the money we spent on our timeshare purchases because the usage we've gotten from them over the years would not have been possible if we didn't buy them at that time. It's true that the same Weeks are NOW available at discounted prices but they weren't then, and if we waited until now to buy them then how could we have been using them in the interim? Maybe we could have been renting from other owners, but I doubt that the consecutive Memorial Day holiday multi-weeks would have been as consistently available on the rental market as we were able to reserve them, especially while the resort was in its construction and infancy phases. Plus I'm certain we simply would not have made the effort.

I actually think there are many people who are happy with their timeshare purchases and have no regrets.

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Very well said. That applies to us as well.

Beefnot said:

... But what doubly sucks, and getting back to the original post, is folks who paid sky high developer (or pre-TS crash) prices while watching their MFs increase inordinately since that time. ...

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To be fair, the OP never mentioned one word about the purchase price of his timeshare, if it even was a developer purchase, or its declining value. He definitely talked about the increases in the MF's but not about whatever devaluation his original investment dollars may have suffered. That slant wasn't introduced in the thread until MoxJo mentioned getting his "monies worth" from his MF's and EKniager told him that "monies worth" couldn't be figured correctly until the purchase price was included in the equation.

SueDonJ said:

Fortunately, I don't regret the money we spent on our timeshare purchases because the usage we've gotten from them over the years would not have been possible if we didn't buy them at that time. It's true that the same Weeks are NOW available at discounted prices but they weren't then, and if we waited until now to buy them then how could we have been using them in the interim? Maybe we could have been renting from other owners, but I doubt that the consecutive Memorial Day holiday multi-weeks would have been as consistently available on the rental market as we were able to reserve them, especially while the resort was in its construction and infancy phases. Plus I'm certain we simply would not have made the effort.

I actually think there are many people who are happy with their timeshare purchases and have no regrets.

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This applies to us as well.

SueDonJ said:

To be fair, the OP never mentioned one word about the purchase price of his timeshare, if it even was a developer purchase, or its declining value. He definitely talked about the increases in the MF's but not about whatever devaluation his original investment dollars may have suffered. That slant wasn't introduced in the thread until MoxJo mentioned getting his "monies worth" from his MF's and EKniager told him that "monies worth" couldn't be figured correctly until the purchase price was included in the equation.

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For my first timeshare Imperial Palms, I bought Marriott resale which was about $14K. Our second week is a split week at Ko Olina ($18K) and Shadow Ridge ($6K). We paid developer prices for those.

So yes, our purchase has devalued much like a car. But since my MF keep going up, I see that they continue to upgrade and keep up the units. I do appreciate that and understand that I cannot expect the resort to stay 5 star if I don't help pay to keep it 5 star.

SueDonJ said:

I actually think there are many people who are happy with their timeshare purchases and have no regrets. Some of them could be oblivious to the overall financial picture of timeshares, sure. But I think some of them are like me and learned about the market (here on TUG or somewhere else) before buying anything. I'm content knowing that at the time we were able to get exactly what we wanted without spending outrageous money that we didn't need to spend, despite knowing that others who were in our same place may have chosen to purchase something else for less money.

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Yep, you got your money's worth. Good for you

Not sure I hate Marriott when I have to pay our MFs. I know that the money goes in to maintaining excellent resorts that we enjoy traveling to. Of course there the MFs are a profit center for Marriott, but that doesn't really bother me as much. Now if we were sinking $2000 a year in to resorts that were in poor shape, then I would be upset. The resorts however are always in top notch shape and units go through regular 5 year refurbishment cycles.

I got rid of my 2 Marriott timeshares. Their point system turned out to be much worse than I hoped and a robust rental market never materialized. Too bad. I have now joined the group of former owners who believe that Marriott sucks.

BocaBum99 said:

I got rid of my 2 Marriott timeshares. Their point system turned out to be much worse than I hoped and a robust rental market never materialized. Too bad. I have now joined the group of former owners who believe that Marriott sucks.

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Just out of curiosity, how did the point system influence your decision to sell? If you liked the program before the points system, it would seem that you could have simply kept your weeks out of the points system and continued to use them the way you were. I know exchanges have tightened slightly but I did trade for Paris, Marbella and St. Thomas in 2011 with Shadow Ridge Gold.

The sting of paying the MF's won't really happen until I have to pay my cc bill, which fortuitously will be after I return from another wonderful vacation. This time not only will my Mom be coming, but we have accommodations for two close friends (actually, 4- 2 couples), one in an exchange I was lucky enough to secure, still through II, and the other due to the generosity of a fellow Tugger. Somehow I think I'll be even smiling a little when I pay the bill this year

In general, I belong to the same camp as many of the other posters. Although it sounds like sales-speak, I know that I wouldn't either bother to make the travel plans or would secure less expensive accommodations. One day goes into the next and it is easy to put off vacation plans, and harder to justify the expenditures. I think that's human nature, especially with hectic lifestyles and costs escalating everywhere else. For us, ownership is a lifestyle choice and forces us to periodically get off the merry-goround, so to speak. It's nice to recharge our batteries, and we've had memories along the way that have truly become priceless. We took an extra trip a few years back that we wouldn't have otherwise taken, and we sadly learned that life can have unexpected turns afterwards; although the loss of my Dad was devastating, I will always cherish the memories of him while we were away just the month before.

Although hopefully not so tragic, I think most of us have memories just as poignant that offsets the "costs." So while today the prices are less than I paid (I bought initially at a time when resale prices were high and then subsequently when a bit lower, but not at today's levels), the money wouldn't give me the warm and fuzzies that I have from our family trips in the interim, so I don't feel I overpaid. I've enjoyed each and every trip, I enjoy the space and the amenities, and while I wish I could pay less for those amenities on an on-going basis, I know that if I want to feel like I am going to a 5 star resort I need to pay for the upkeep.

SueDonJ said:

...
Fortunately, I don't regret the money we spent on our timeshare purchases because the usage we've gotten from them over the years would not have been possible if we didn't buy them at that time. It's true that the same Weeks are NOW available at discounted prices but they weren't then, and if we waited until now to buy them then how could we have been using them in the interim? Maybe we could have been renting from other owners, but I doubt that the consecutive Memorial Day holiday multi-weeks would have been as consistently available on the rental market as we were able to reserve them, especially while the resort was in its construction and infancy phases. Plus I'm certain we simply would not have made the effort.....

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IF we had waited until now (13+ years later) buy our first TS, hmmmm, maybe I would richer $$$, OR poorer (dang stock market), or maybe we would have done alot of camping trips, but for sure, we willl NOT be vacationing weeks each year in very nice location in upscale, roomy, comfortable accomodations.

jimf41 said:

This applies to us as well.

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+1. This is true for us as well.

I just paid my big maintenance fee bill today. For one of my Maui Ocean Club units, I was able to rent it out for a modest $600 profit above what the maintenance fees cost me. I look forward to using my other weeks this year.

Whether I rent them out or use them ... no, I don't hate my Marriott timeshares.

dioxide45 said:

Not sure I hate Marriott when I have to pay our MFs. I know that the money goes in to maintaining excellent resorts that we enjoy traveling to. Of course there the MFs are a profit center for Marriott, but that doesn't really bother me as much. Now if we were sinking $2000 a year in to resorts that were in poor shape, then I would be upset. The resorts however are always in top notch shape and units go through regular 5 year refurbishment cycles.

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+1.

MF's are not a surprise; they are a necessary evil. Because they are predictable, they can be budgeted. I associate paying the MF's with taking a vacation at the resort in question, so it is not unpleasant. And the maintenance at the two Marriotts I own is top notch.

OTOH, a special assessment would drive me nuts. That would be unplanned money spent without any incremental benefit. Like an expensive car repair.

josh1231 said:

Just out of curiosity, how did the point system influence your decision to sell? If you liked the program before the points system, it would seem that you could have simply kept your weeks out of the points system and continued to use them the way you were. I know exchanges have tightened slightly but I did trade for Paris, Marbella and St. Thomas in 2011 with Shadow Ridge Gold.

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I bought to trade up in flexchange. It worked for several years. I had 100% payback in 1 year, so I knew it was a good strategy. I could always dump my units when the time came. The time came, so I dumped them. When the point system was launched, the great exchanges to Hawaii resorts stopped being so plentiful. I knew that would be the case, so I was not surprise by it.

In addition, I hoped a robust rental market would emerge. If it did, I would convert my weeks into points and then rent points from other owners. That didn't happen. The economics of Marriott's are horrible. So, I am out. If I want to go to a Marriott, I'll either exchange into one or rent it. I cannot find any economic reason to own it other than to flip when the market returns, if it returns.

Marriott totally blew it with their point program. It really totally sucks. If they copied any of the existing programs, it would have been better. They had to go out and create a new one, screw it up and make it worse. As I said at the outset. Marriott sucks.

SueDonJ said:

I've regretted buying a $9,000 sewing machine - "that also embroiders!" But if you're upside/down and facing foreclosure because you didn't intend to stay in the property longterm and you can no longer afford to pay the spiffy variable-rate mortgage with a balloon payment coming due, then of course you regret the decision to purchase what you did. With timeshares IMO it was always a mistake to assume a consistent ROI, so regretting a timeshare purchase because the purchase dollars are sunk is a foreign concept.

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Hi Sue.
Wow, a $9000 sewing machine? That must sting. The timeshare observation, though, has a large whiff of hindsight. Did you REALLY believe the money was gone the moment you bought the timeshare(s)? Did you REALLY ignore the rosy future painted by the salesperson, which made future gains in your "deeded real estate" appear inevitable? If so, I have to assume you'd do it all again right now, forking over those big bucks for beautiful future memories. Would you really?

While your underwater mortgage point has merit from a no regrets point of view, there is also the entirely likely scenario that you will, in time, emerge above water. In fact, it's guaranteed, as long a you keep making payments. Can you realistically say the same about your timeshare?