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Are there really any buyers out there now?

timeos2

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Hard numbers. I'll do what I can

You are looking at only one side of the equation. Your assumptions about no buyers is where your problem is. Any numbers to justify that assertion are still missing. Without numbers on both sides, there is no basis for your assertions. I would suggest narrowing it down geographically to make counting feasible. That is why I looked at an area I am familiar with, two resort towns on the OBX. When you compare sales this year with past sales or with weeks being offered for sale, it shows that your theory does not apply on the OBX, or at least this part of the OBX. I suspect that you will find lots of other areas that real numbers disprove your theory. But it is like other real estate, there are indeed probably some distressed areas out there.

You are the Orlando expert, so why don't you give us some real numbers, on both sides of the equation, for Orlando?

I don't think there is any way to identify potential buyers as depending on sales means they acted (the price/resort was right) while maybe 1, 2 or 100 didn't buy because the price was wrong, the resort was wrong, whatever.

The really troubling number is the shear number of sales offered vs completed sales. It is in the 100's or even thousands to one. Then average prices, already low, dropping more. It just isn't pretty. But a great time to be a serious buyer.

However, information is the key to any good discussion/theory so I am asking for hard numbers for Orlando. I hear something may be available after the taxes go out Sept 20. If i get it I'll gladly pass it on.
 

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John, your provision of some real numbers would, indeed, be very helpful to the discussion.

Having 100s or 1000s of weeks listed for sale for each actual completed sale would not be a good omen, but so far you have produced only opinions on these numbers. Such numbers do, of course, vary from resort area to resort area, but maybe after you have crunched the numbers for Orlando or a specific resort at Orlando, they may not be as bad as you think.


I don't think there is any way to identify potential buyers as depending on sales means they acted (the price/resort was right) while maybe 1, 2 or 100 didn't buy because the price was wrong, the resort was wrong, whatever.

The really troubling number is the shear number of sales offered vs completed sales. It is in the 100's or even thousands to one. Then average prices, already low, dropping more. It just isn't pretty. But a great time to be a serious buyer.

However, information is the key to any good discussion/theory so I am asking for hard numbers for Orlando. I hear something may be available after the taxes go out Sept 20. If i get it I'll gladly pass it on.
 

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Take your pick. Run a quick scan for timeshares for sale. They are beyond easy count at each site.

For sale offers from:

TUG 2688
Timeshares Only - 6787+
Sell My Timeshare Now 41,377+
Timeshares Direct 14,777 + (vs 510 sold - no time frame for sales)
Redweek 674 (US only)
eBay 1364
Craigs List 671 (Orlando Only)


So in 5 minutes using very limited search tools and picking only 7 sites out of literally hundreds that pop up we get over 68,000 offers to sell - that doesn't scratch the surface.
.

this is totally misleading info given how the different sites list ads.

if we kept every ad up for an entire year (vs making users renew every 3 months if the ad is still active), TUG would have tens of thousands of ads.

I see the SMTN number of 41k resale ads now, I also see ad numbers listed in there in the 4 digit range....those ads must be years old no?

When I search Timeshares only for "any price" I only come up with 2300 ads.

Ebay only displays the ads that are currently on auction (1 or 2 weeks) or are completed listings (only the last 15 days)...so comparing the number you see "right now" with any of the resale sites on the internet is a highly skewed comparison.


I dont know of any site that displays or reports completed listings either (other than TUG and ebay)
 
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foreverloves

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Ebay only displays the ads that are currently on auction (1 or 2 weeks) or are completed listings (only the last 15 days)...so comparing the number you see "right now" with any of the resale sites on the internet is a highly skewed comparison.


I dont know of any site that displays or reports completed listings either (other than TUG and ebay)

There's a way around that. If you are seriously shopping and add a timeshare to your watch list on ebay, it will remain there (with the completed auction price intact) for as long as you keep it on your watch list. So while it may not appear in a search, you can compile historical data over many months for comparables.

Additionally, regarding Royal Dunes (what an interesting point for me!) I know there have been many deeds sucked up by DRI. RD is trying to combat that, in part, by having owners sign three year proxys. There are not going down without a fight. I did my due diligence for almost 3 months before I pulled the trigger, including trolling this and other boards, speaking to current and past owners, and even reading the owners documents all the way back to 2005. Based on that, I snagged my Royal Dunes Gold for ~$500 including closing costs. Based on the prices just listed earlier, I think I did pretty well.
 

Maple_Leaf

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HHI Royal Dunes - 2010 Sales Adjusted

Looks like they are trying to take over the resort. That would be a red flag to me as to buying at this resort.

Stouts Hill in the UK stopped DRI's predecessor dead in its track on a takeover bid by amending the voting provisions for their HOA, giving each owner one vote in the association, no matter how many weeks they owned. That gave Sunterra only one vote and halted their takeover bid.

For meaningful numbers, I would back out the DRI purchases, and look at the number of sales in 2010 compared to 2006 and the average price of other sales, to see how much both volume and price have changed.

Just for giggles, I adjusted the 2010 sales data, removing the $10 DRI purchases.

2006: 10 Bronze ($752), 16 Gold ($3528), 2 Platinum ($9500)
2010: 4 Bronze ($950), 20 Gold ($2873), 3 Platinum ($5635)

So, removing the DRI acquisition activity, we find total sales volume steady with prices down a bit from 2006. The DRI activity seems to indicate that there is a group of owners out there sitting on their weeks, paying MF, just waiting for someone, anyone, with $10 bills to come and take their week off their hands.
 

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Maybe RD can insert the Stouts Hill poison pill into their governing documents and stop the DRI vampires dead in their tracks, just as Stouts Hill stopped their predecessor Sunterra.


There's a way around that. If you are seriously shopping and add a timeshare to your watch list on ebay, it will remain there (with the completed auction price intact) for as long as you keep it on your watch list. So while it may not appear in a search, you can compile historical data over many months for comparables.

Additionally, regarding Royal Dunes (what an interesting point for me!) I know there have been many deeds sucked up by DRI. RD is trying to combat that, in part, by having owners sign three year proxys. There are not going down without a fight. I did my due diligence for almost 3 months before I pulled the trigger, including trolling this and other boards, speaking to current and past owners, and even reading the owners documents all the way back to 2005. Based on that, I snagged my Royal Dunes Gold for ~$500 including closing costs. Based on the prices just listed earlier, I think I did pretty well.
 

timeos2

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Keep owner control - the rest is "easy"

Maybe RD can insert the Stouts Hill poison pill into their governing documents and stop the DRI vampires dead in their tracks, just as Stouts Hill stopped their predecessor Sunterra.

Any resort where a developer is attempting to regain control of previously sold weeks and thus possible control of what should be/is an owner controlled Board of Directors needs to get immediate, independent legal advice and take the steps needed to protect the rights and the control of the Board by the individual owners. Most States prohibit the retaking of Bard control by a developer - or "subsequent" developer (one reason why independent council may be needed to get any sort of sales organization that is buying up a quantity of weeks declared as such) - the Board/Owners need to ensure that law is strictly enforced.

The key to any timeshare/condo being successfully run to the individual owners satisfaction is an Owner controlled BOD in my opinion. In fact that is a key to even considering an ownership for us - especially now that we are cutting back to only our best resorts that we have enjoyed the most for use and that give us a good trade on the few occasions we use it that way.

The current Board and management need to be on top of this situation and to get word out to the general membership so they too are aware of it and are behind the legal efforts to keep control with the owners.
 

fredericaf

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Looking to purchase timeshare for 0 dollars

[Message deleted. Advertising is not permitted in the Buying/Selling/Renting forum. You've already found the Bargain Deals forum. See also the Timeshare Marketplace, where Want-to-Buy ads may be placed. - Makai Guy, BBS Administrator]
 
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foreverloves

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Any resort where a developer is attempting to regain control of previously sold weeks and thus possible control of what should be/is an owner controlled Board of Directors needs to get immediate, independent legal advice and take the steps needed to protect the rights and the control of the Board by the individual owners. Most States prohibit the retaking of Bard control by a developer - or "subsequent" developer (one reason why independent council may be needed to get any sort of sales organization that is buying up a quantity of weeks declared as such) - the Board/Owners need to ensure that law is strictly enforced.

The key to any timeshare/condo being successfully run to the individual owners satisfaction is an Owner controlled BOD in my opinion. In fact that is a key to even considering an ownership for us - especially now that we are cutting back to only our best resorts that we have enjoyed the most for use and that give us a good trade on the few occasions we use it that way.

The current Board and management need to be on top of this situation and to get word out to the general membership so they too are aware of it and are behind the legal efforts to keep control with the owners.

Actually, they are doing just that. In fact, in one of their last owner newsletters, they SPECIFICALLY tell their owners to check TUG as a source for information on why companies like DRI are not good for a resort. I remember smiling when I read that because I feel that if the ownership is recommending TUG, they know what they are doing. :)

I was also pleased that I snagged the ebay auction. I'd rather own it on the cheap (because I want it and I will USE it) than give another deed to DRI.

I'm not sure if this link will work, but they mention TUG on the first page of the "Dunes Beat".

http://www.spmresorts.com/media/res...es Newsletter - January 2010 - rev 1 8 10.pdf
 

Carolinian

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SPM is a good, owner-oriented management company. I am sure they will stay on top of things. I think they also monitor TUG regularly, as I have had them send me a PM or email on some of my posts. They have an excellent reputation on the OBX.

I hope they read and pick up on the Stouts Hill poison pill. My giving each owner only one vote in the HOA no matter how many weeks they own, DRI will only get one vote in the HOA, and they will be neutered.


Actually, they are doing just that. In fact, in one of their last owner newsletters, they SPECIFICALLY tell their owners to check TUG as a source for information on why companies like DRI are not good for a resort. I remember smiling when I read that because I feel that if the ownership is recommending TUG, they know what they are doing. :)

I was also pleased that I snagged the ebay auction. I'd rather own it on the cheap (because I want it and I will USE it) than give another deed to DRI.

I'm not sure if this link will work, but they mention TUG on the first page of the "Dunes Beat".

http://www.spmresorts.com/media/res...es Newsletter - January 2010 - rev 1 8 10.pdf
 

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That is fantastic that they mentioned TUG in their member announcements!

Please extend my thanks to the individual responsible for that (Mr. Gowins?), and they are welcome to contact me directly if TUG can assist your resort in any way.

Ill gladly give the hoa/bod/or whoever was responsible a complimentary membership in return!
 

timeos2

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Finally got the figures - it is really interesting!

I don't think there is any way to identify potential buyers as depending on sales means they acted (the price/resort was right) while maybe 1, 2 or 100 didn't buy because the price was wrong, the resort was wrong, whatever.

The really troubling number is the shear number of sales offered vs completed sales. It is in the 100's or even thousands to one. Then average prices, already low, dropping more. It just isn't pretty. But a great time to be a serious buyer.

However, information is the key to any good discussion/theory so I am asking for hard numbers for Orlando. I hear something may be available after the taxes go out Sept 20. If i get it I'll gladly pass it on.

I was able to get official records for sales - County records for 2007, 2008 and 2009. These are verified, independent sales (neither the Developer, subsequent developer or the resort/Association were involved in any way. That is a requirement for "market value" and establishing value for tax purposes). The sales that met the criteria were:

2007 - 40 Sales Total Value $82,281 Average sale price $ 2057.

2008 - 23 Sales Total Value $64,563 Average sale price $2807.

2009 - 11 Sales Total Value 34,800 Average sale price $3163

Wow. Total sales DOWN over 70% Sales price up? Maybe not as the actual average for 10 of the 11 sales was $2520. There was 1 (one) sale for $9000 (!!!) that raised the 2009 average. Talk about an uninformed buyer - we didn't pay $9000 when we bought the resort under construction in 1993!

So, based on those REAL, recorded sales at a known resort, it appears sales have fallen by over 72% while price has actually gone up between 23 to 53%. So is the market depressed or up?

Other interesting notes:

The low price in 2007 was $1000. In 2009 there were multiple sales at $1500, none less.

The low price in 2008 was also $1500.

High price in 2007 was $4500. 2008 had 2 highs at $6000. 2009 $9000 - next highest $4500.

SO what do we know now that we didn't without those real numbers? Not much.

eBay is still a BIG player. At this very moment there are owners offering their weeks for FREE if someone takes over fees - yet in 2009 no one paid less than $1500 for a week. Is the market weaker? I'd have to say a resounding YES.

Anything else to say?
 
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Carolinian

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I think the front page article in the current Timesharing Today hits the nail on the head on the eBay problem. They note how the domination of PCC sales there has driven down the sales price on that venue and that ''most'' timeshares offered there now are from PCC's.
 

Carolinian

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John, for comparision, how many identifiable PCC sales did you find at your resort in that period?
 

timeos2

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John, for comparision, how many identifiable PCC sales did you find at your resort in that period?

There were 2 that were almost certainly from PCC operations.
 

Carolinian

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If you haven't seen it, I would suggest that you check out the frontpage story in Timesharing Today which is entitled ''Post Card Companies and Their Effect on the Market and Timeshare Association Operations''. eBay is, of course, what is most impacted as that is where the PCC's do most of their dumping.
 

bilfbr245

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PCC sales

It seems to me that the very fact that there are so many PCC units available is an important element of market value. The fact that so many people are willing to pay sometimes thousands of dollars to be rid of tiimeshares, which then get dumped for a dollar, and that the sheer volume of these transactions keeps ebay continuously supplied with more than a thousand listings every day is a factor that should not be overlooked when thinking about market value. To exclude them from the analysis is sort of like disregarding all your stocks that went down when you analyze your investment returns.
 

Carolinian

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It seems to me that the very fact that there are so many PCC units available is an important element of market value. The fact that so many people are willing to pay sometimes thousands of dollars to be rid of tiimeshares, which then get dumped for a dollar, and that the sheer volume of these transactions keeps ebay continuously supplied with more than a thousand listings every day is a factor that should not be overlooked when thinking about market value. To exclude them from the analysis is sort of like disregarding all your stocks that went down when you analyze your investment returns.

Many of the PCC's lie to get people to pay them, ranging from saying they can take a tax deduction on the loss to misrepresentations about impact on heirs. Most people are induced to attend on a lie to begin with, as the PCC's imply that they will be offering to buy the timeshare.

It is also a circular scheme, as part of their spiel involves not being able to sell them on eBay, so naturally they have to keep flooding the market there to keep the argument flowing by depressing prices. The various parts of the PCC scam feed on each other and they all hurt timesharing.
 

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What truly amazes me is that the resorts themselves have not taken on this role...(ie taking the timeshares back for a large fee...7x the mf or similar).

Its obviously an ENORMOUS cash cow for the companies that specialize in it, and does nothing but hurt the resorts in turn.
 

timeos2

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It would be really risky

What truly amazes me is that the resorts themselves have not taken on this role...(ie taking the timeshares back for a large fee...7x the mf or similar).

Its obviously an ENORMOUS cash cow for the companies that specialize in it, and does nothing but hurt the resorts in turn.

Any resort that decided to do that - take three or four times the annual fee in exchange for the releasing the owner from future fees - would be risking a lot. They have to have the blessing of the other owners that they are willing to cover the future fees if a new owner isn't found. And they have to be willing to take the weeks back from any owner - up to 100% of them - as once a benefit is offered to one owner by law every owner must get the same benefit or the Association is subject to serious claims by those denied. It would be a very risky move to make unless they had a guaranteed outlet for those weeks. I know I wouldn't risk it as the downside is too great.
 

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If you discover that your TS has no resale value, it may be possible to give it away, if it is paid off, and all your fees are up to date. Let us know if you want more info. on that.


Whatever you do, don't pay any more upfront fees to sell it - that is always a scam!

I have a TS with no resale value, and I have not been able to give it away in the classifieds of TUG or Bargain Deals. I have asked resort management to accept it back and they declined. It is paid off and MF are current. I offered to pay next years MF on TUG's Bargain Deals.

Should I try a Quit Claim Deed? Do you have any other suggestions? Should I pay Florida Veterans or some other 'donation' company?

I had another TS with some value, and followed your advice, and am in the process of transferring it to a new owner. I gave it away for $1, and the buyer is paying the recording fees. But my other unit is just not moving.

help!

Chris
 

DeniseM

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You already asked the resort, and the won't take it back, so you can't force them to with a with a Quit Claim.

As far as giving it away, you only post it on TUG on Oct. 14, so it hasn't even been 2 weeks. If I were you, I would post in that thread once a week or so, to keep it visible and give it some more time.
 

cvocke

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You already asked the resort, and the won't take it back, so you can't force them to with a with a Quit Claim.

As far as giving it away, you only post it on TUG on Oct. 14, so it hasn't even been 2 weeks. If I were you, I would post in that thread once a week or so, to keep it visible and give it some more time.

I didn't know I COULD repost on the Bargain Deals. Will do that, thanks!
 

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(P. T. Barnum)
I just wish I could direct them to my Ebay ad!!!
:):whoopie:
 

DeniseM

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I didn't know I COULD repost on the Bargain Deals. Will do that, thanks!

Just add a post to the current thread, rather than starting a new one.

Like "Still available."
 
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