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Bill Cosby and the justice system

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pgnewarkboy

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Right, defense never tries to paint woman as at fault these days. Sure.

I gave you a fact. You responded with a sarcastic remark. If you are going to be sarcastic at least know what you are talking about. As I said, A WOMENS SEXUAL HISTORY IS NOT PERMISSIBLE IN MOST JURISDICTIONS.

Do you think that every claim of rape by a women must be taken at face value? What if there is no physical evidence of rape? What if there are no corroborating witnesses? Do you believe that consensual sex is even possible or does it turn on the whim of the woman. How does a defendant prove that sex was consensual? Must there be a written statement of consent prior to the act? Do you honestly believe that woman never lie about sex?
 

DeniseM

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pgnewarkboy - have you read the detailed accounts of each woman's experience in the Cosby case?

There is nothing "consensual" about using date rape drugs, and having sex with a 15 year old.

How about if tonight over dinner, your wife reveals that she was sexually assaulted years ago, and never told anyone. Are you going to say all the things to her, that you just posted here?
 

SMHarman

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And let's not forget all those unprocessed rape kits bouncing around the system due to budget issues.
 

DeniseM

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A gentle reminder - if this thread gets nasty, we will close it.
 

Passepartout

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A gentle reminder - if this thread gets nasty, we will close it.

Actually, I think that anything constructive has already been said, and those with intractable, deeply entrenched positions will not be swayed by further discussion. I vote to close it before it becomes more personal than it already has.
 

Beefnot

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pgnewarkboy - have you read the detailed accounts of each woman's experience in the Cosby case?

There is nothing "consensual" about using date rape drugs, and having sex with a 15 year old.

How about if tonight over dinner, your wife reveals that she was sexually assaulted years ago, and never told anyone. Are you going to say all the things to her, that you just posted here?

Denise, you're committing logical fallacies. Pgnewarkboy never suggested that using date rape drugs or underage sex should be considered consensual.

Are you also suggesting that the barometer for the veracity of any claim should be based simply on how a given person would respond if their significant other, whom they know and trust, made such a claim? Which by extension would also mean that all claims should be considered factual at face value.
 

DeniseM

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Thanks Beefnot, but I would like to know if Pgnewarkboy has read the accusations of each woman.

I would also like to know how he would apply the statements he made to someone he cares about. How would he advise them?
 
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Ken555

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I've never heard of her before this all happened so she doesn't mean crap to me and I would bet most people in the country also had never heard of her.


Wow, indeed. Of course, anything's possible.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Allred

To illustrate how well known Gloria is, simply look to popular culture references:

On March 28, 2000, Allred was parodied on the animated TV show Family Guy, by a character named Gloria Ironbox voiced by Candice Bergen in an episode titled I Am Peter, Hear Me Roar.

On May 21, 2001 Allred was parodied on "The Simpsons" Behind The Laughter portraying a lawyer at the family table for Lisa Simpson.

On June 27, 2001, Allred was parodied on South Park's episode Cripple Fight.


Sent from my iPad
 

Clemson Fan

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I've never heard of her before this all happened so she doesn't mean crap to me and I would bet most people in the country also had never heard of her. Rape is a crime punishable by prison, not a fine, so exactly why would someone assume "oooo, I can get money from Bill!" and that lies would be believed?

All of the cases currently being reported are well beyond the statute of limitations. So, these allegations are in fact NOT punishable by prison. However, I'm sure some charge in civil court can be bought up against him which is exactly why Gloria Allred is involving herself. I'm sure she has NO interest in pursuing any criminal charges against Cosby and she is just interested in whatever $$ she can extract from him for the benefit of her victims/clients in addition to the added celebrity she gets from it.

I personally do have doubts in the allegations against Cosby not that anybody should really care what I think. The reason I have doubts are really twofold.

1. This was 30 years ago and I agree with the OP on the reliability of memories that old.

2. If Cosby is a serial rapist, why would he have all of a sudden stopped? I wouldn't think that serial rapists would all of a sudden stop what they're doing unless they were in jail or dead. Based on this premise, then there should surely be some more recent victims of his that would fall within the criminal statute of limitations? I find it very odd that there aren't any.
 

Beefnot

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2. If Cosby is a serial rapist, why would he have all of a sudden stopped? I wouldn't think that serial rapists would all of a sudden stop what they're doing unless they were in jail or dead. Based on this premise, then there should surely be some more recent victims of his that would fall within the criminal statute of limitations? I find it very odd that there aren't any.

Keep in mind that he is currently 77 years old.
 

DeniseM

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Clemson Fan -

Bill Cosby is 77 - that might make rape a bit more challenging than in his younger days.

Have you actually read each woman's accusations against Cosby, and reviewed who these women are?
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...ult_rape_drugs_feature_in_women_s_stories.htm

[Are you aware, that there was a previous lawsuit 10 years ago? I edited my post to quote the info. about the previous lawsuit - which is more accurate than what I wrote]

March 8, 2005: Andrea Constand, director of operations for Temple University’s women’s basketball team

Constand files a civil complaint against Cosby. The five-count lawsuit charges Cosby with battery and assault, and asks for at least $150,000 in damages. Thirteen women who allege similar experiences as Constand and Green are mentioned in court papers as Jane Doe witnesses…

Cosby settles with Constand. Terms are not disclosed, and none of the 13 other women testify.

Temple University has since parted ways with Cosby.
 
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Passepartout

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Clemsonfan,
I'm not 77 yet, but even now, I'm not likely to, or be capable of a LOT of things I regularly did 30-40 years ago. My wife will verify this fact. :)

Jim
 

DeniseM

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Clemsonfan,
I'm not 77 yet, but even now, I'm not likely to, or be capable of a LOT of things I regularly did 30-40 years ago. My wife will verify this fact. :)

Jim

So Jim - you can no longer lure 15 to 25 year olds into your clutches? :D

All kidding aside, at 77, Cosby is unlikely to be attractive to young females these days. Back in the day, he was not hiding in dark alleys and attacking women - these were "date rape" situations.
 
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Passepartout

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So Jim - you can no longer lure 15 to 25 year olds into your clutches? :D

Now I have to sneak up on the 77 year-old women in the dark and hope they'll be grateful for the attention.
 

ace2000

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I would also like to know how he would apply the statements he made to someone he cares about. How would he advise them?

One last post for me... it's been interesting to hear all the points of view.

Denise, your question is similar to asking someone that is anti-death penalty how they would feel if someone murdered their daughter. It's an unfair question.

And why do you keep asking everyone if they've read the allegations? I don't recall anyone on this thread saying that they believed that Bill Cosby did not commit these crimes. I don't get your point. What is it in the allegations that you want us to see?

EDIT: Nevermind I just read what you were referring to. My bad.
 
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ottawasquaw

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Gosh, I don't recall folks having such doubts about the priest abuse a few years back. Sure, there are assaults too minor to prosecute. Sure, there are victims who are likely questionable. I recall similar situations from the priest scandal.

And, as a middle-aged career woman, I endured inappropriate behavior early in my career. Sheesh, I endured inappropriate behavior from male relatives. The drugging is clearly crossing the line. Thanks for whoever remembered about Spanish Fly!

Not only similar to Sandusky and OJ, but as I recall Michael Jackson settled out of court for years..

We have plenty of innocent prisoners in this country and many criminals who have never served any time or even been convicted. Time is the friend of truth. Thank you to whoever mentioned Lance Armstrong! Please, please to all the posters who mention the pains of being wealth and having your reputation trashed, please cite an example. Not only have multiple accusers with similar stories come forward, but so have the accomplices.
 

Patri

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Now I have to sneak up on the 77 year-old women in the dark and hope they'll be grateful for the attention.


Brian, are you working on that 'like' button?
 

Clemson Fan

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Clemson Fan -

Bill Cosby is 77 - that might make rape a bit more challenging than in his younger days.

Have you actually read each woman's accusations against Cosby, and reviewed who these women are?
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...ult_rape_drugs_feature_in_women_s_stories.htm

[Are you aware, that there was a previous lawsuit 10 years ago? I edited my post to quote the info. about the previous lawsuit - which is more accurate than what I wrote]



Temple University has since parted ways with Cosby.

Nope, I haven't read each woman's accusations or profiles nor will I. I've already spent too much time reading this thread. I actually don't care that much about Cosby or this story.

I don't put too much weight behind a civil lawsuit that was settled out of court. Who cares. The burden of proof in a civil case is far less then a criminal case and many civil cases just come down to simple money grabs by attorneys looking for work and for clients looking for a quick buck and a settlement out of court. Why didn't that lady prosecute? I would think that if you were raped you would want the bastard thrown in jail. Also, signing a non-disclosure agreement on a settlement out of court is standard operating procedure which makes it nearly impossible to infer anything from that.

If he's a serial rapist, then find a victim in the last 10 years (he wasn't 77 10 years ago) and charge him. He's never even been charged. Sandusky was charged and found guilty and is spending the rest of his life in jail. OJ was charged and tried. Granted he was found not guilty, but at least he was charged and went to trial. Even Michael Jackson was criminally charged and indicted. With Cosby, nothing, notta, zilch.

If he was just simply criminally charged With something I'd be more inclined to believe it. Civil lawsuits IMO are mostly money grabs (especially against celebrities) that don't prove much of anything.

That's all I gotta say in the subject and I'll sign off and move on.

Aloha! :wave:
 

MuranoJo

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ottawasquaw

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Why didn't that lady prosecute?

Well, because victims don't prosecute. Prosecutors do. If you haven't had direct dealings with our criminal justice system, it's easy to hold onto a lot of false beliefs. Many criminals are repeat offenders because there simply is not enough evidence to charge them. People who have drug dealers for neighbors know this. They watch the problem repeat itself and work with the police, who are just as frustrated. We have a high burden of proof in our legal system.

Interestingly, in the three examples cited, the victims were either children or dead. The perception remains that if it's adults, perhaps it was consensual. Actually, I am of the belief that women do put themselves in risky situations. I've worked with collegians to help them understand this. Still, when a white male is mugged at night in a parking garage, do we suggest that it might have been consensual? That it was the victim's fault? He should not have been there?

Mike Tyson was prosecuted and convicted years ago at a great cost to the city of Indianapolis. The hotel where the jury was staying was set on fire. A firefighter lost his life saving others. It's easy to see why a prosecutor might pass on the cost of a celebrity trial. Keep in mind that prosecutors try cases where they think they can get a conviction. Trials are very, very expensive.
 

pgnewarkboy

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pgnewarkboy - have you read the detailed accounts of each woman's experience in the Cosby case?

There is nothing "consensual" about using date rape drugs, and having sex with a 15 year old.

How about if tonight over dinner, your wife reveals that she was sexually assaulted years ago, and never told anyone. Are you going to say all the things to her, that you just posted here?

My comment had nothing to do with the Cosby case or date rape drugs. It had to do with,your statement that in general a woman's sexual history is always admitted in a rape case. That statement, was incorrect. So, the conversation was at that point getting generalized beyond the Cosby case. As I said in my original post, I don't know if the claims against Cosby are true or not. That means they might be true. I don't know. The public might learn more from two pending lawsuits one filed by an alleged Cosby victim and the other filed by Cosby. To the extent that the LA Prosecutors office is actually investigating some or many of these matters it may shed actual light on what happened. I have no interest in defending Cosby. I am interested in development of the facts.
As an experienced litigator I have had read, taken, and tested many statements over a very long career. Many, means easily over several thousand. In the legal system, only a fool would take any statement at face value no matter who gives one. Human beings are complex. Finding the truth is not always easy.


Women have been and still are often treated in ways that are unfair, unjust, sometimes inhumane. It is impossible to categorize all the ways that the life of women in our country has been difficult. All women suffered when they didn't have the vote. Some or many women suffer from other outrages large and small. Women were not even permitted on juries at one time. The laws and the courts started to make certain behaviors against women illegal that should never have been permissible. Great strides have been made in the area of equal treatment of women. More needs to be done.

The concept of equal treatment under the law needs to be applied to all people. If the principle of equal treatment under the law is not applied to all it becomes a hollow mantra. That includes men and women who have been charged with rape and other crimes. An individual is free to think as they wish until they sit in the jury box and are then required to render a verdict in accordance with the law. Every juror should sit on a jury with an open mind. They should be willing to overcome preconceived notions. In fact, the following is a version of a common question asked of jurors when they sit in a high publicity case. "Despite what you have read or heard about this case can you keep and open mind and render a fair verdict without prior prejudice'. That is the GOAL of the legal system. It is not the goal of the media.
 
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DeniseM

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My comment had nothing to do with the Cosby case or date rape drugs. It had to do with, your statement that in general a woman's sexual history is always admitted in a rape case. That statement, was incorrect.

You are mixing me up with another poster.
 

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I can only say as a big fan of his and for many years owning most of his records and seeing his shows in Lake Tahoe I found off stage he is a jerk!:crash:

After eleven months in Vet-N 69-70 and returning in 1970 my wife and I went to Lake Tahoe to see his show and enjoy some down time. The morning we had reservations to his show we ran into him in the lobby of the hotel. He was in his tennis outfit standing off to the side I'm guessing he was waiting for his golf cart ride to the tennis courts and my wife stopped and told him we were big fans and going to his show tonight. :banana:

Bill looked at her and said I'm on my own time here, enjoy me when I'm on stage doing my job!:wall:
I was still in my navy whites and she was well dressed so we didn't look like bums.:ponder:
She was so mad we canceled our reservations and told the hotel why too!

Phill12:annoyed:
 

ottawasquaw

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"I'm on my own time here, enjoy me when I'm on stage doing my job!"
Whoa! Telling! It would have taken him less time to say a simple "Thank you!"

Well, you can't stop people from talking about you but you can behave in a way that others won't believe it's true...or, in this case, NOT!!
 

Ken555

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Bill looked at her and said I'm on my own time here, enjoy me when I'm on stage doing my job!:wall:

I was still in my navy whites and she was well dressed so we didn't look like bums.:ponder:

She was so mad we canceled our reservations and told the hotel why too!


Many celebrities have huge egos and get tired of being on display to strangers whenever they are in public (and not working). Living in LA (and spending not a small amount of time assisting the entertainment industry) I know from first hand experiences that your story is not uncommon. Many celebrities are nice, even friendly, and many are not.

However, being a jerk does not mean he is a criminal. This is exactly the type of unrelated and frankly unimportant story which does no good in this conversation other than to reinforce the opinion of those who know for certain (without a trial) that he is a criminal. However, it still has no bearing on the accusations against him.

You should start a new thread about all the celebrities who are really jerks. That would be a fun thread. :)


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