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Westgate Loses Appeal of Damages [merged]

Passepartout

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Awwww. Couldn't happen to a more deserving defendant. I'd love to see See-Gull doing the perp-walk.
 

Ty1on

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http://www.knoxnews.com/news/local-news/court-timeshare-company-to-pay-600k_00842777

guess the original decision got overturned on appeal and the client was awarded $600k (no clue how much went to the lawyers)



while I love the decision (and hope to see it used to nail salesmen who continue to lie)...600k seems a bit...extreme?

Don'tthink of Iit as a dollar amount. This K of it as an investment in Westgate's corporate bealth. And they can pay in easy installments at an affordable 16%. Hell, the court will throw in a couple movie tickets just for Westgate.

they make that much billing just 20 victims. I don't pity Westgate.
 

travelplus

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We are 150 million times happier we bought on Resale and have had great experiences with our properties both using our home Resort and trading.

I just love how the sales people guarantee a particular unit. This is far from the truth. At a hotel you are never guaranteed a unit just a request. I always put in my requests early and confirm them closer to the time knowing they are just that requests.

If resorts guaranteed units they would be put out of business really quick. I mean you can't even guarantee the resort will be here in 10 years, 50 years etc

People fall for these deals because they don't know how to add up the value. A free trip to Hawaii becomes more hectic when you find out you can't fly on the dates you want to, limited availability etc. If I really wanted to go to Hawaii I would buy resale and use the savings to go to Hawaii and then have money leftover.

Then there is talk about free Bonus Weeks for buying today. If I checked online I could get a nice 2 bedroom for 1,500 per week or $200 per night if I wanted a 5 star place. So it may be $500 per night but heck its not $40,000 dollars+ Mainanace Fees.

Oh yea and I just love how the weasels say just for buying I'll buy you dinner and you can come here to our resort in a 2 bedroom for a bonus week. Yea right Dinner is no more than $50 per person and bonus week is no more than $800ish depending on the unit.

People just get so excited like when they gamble they just can't stop and they get so upset when they find TUG BBS. I am so fortunate to have found TUG BBS online before buying not after buying and asking did I get a good deal after buying directly from the developer and wasting time rescinding the offer.

Remember this before buying directly from the developer. Ask yourself these questions

1. Will I be happy with my investment knowing it will depreciate?
2. Can I find something similar or better for less money on resale?
3. Can I get over the lies that I will be treated different if I buy on resale?
4. Will I be proud of my purchase throwing $40,000+ down the drain knowing that I am covering the commission fees of the agent plus paying annual dues?
5. How much would it cost us to go to X buying direct vs resale?
6. What if I can't afford it how will I be able to get out of the deal?
7. Can I waste time writing the letter to rescind my purchase?
8. Why didn't I find out about TUG BBS before?
Questions like these will help you save money in the long rung and for the short term as well.
 

Ty1on

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We are 150 million times happier we bought on Resale and have had great experiences with our properties both using our home Resort and trading.

I just love how the sales people guarantee a particular unit. This is far from the truth. At a hotel you are never guaranteed a unit just a request. I always put in my requests early and confirm them closer to the time knowing they are just that requests.

If resorts guaranteed units they would be put out of business really quick. I mean you can't even guarantee the resort will be here in 10 years, 50 years etc

People fall for these deals because they don't know how to add up the value. A free trip to Hawaii becomes more hectic when you find out you can't fly on the dates you want to, limited availability etc. If I really wanted to go to Hawaii I would buy resale and use the savings to go to Hawaii and then have money leftover.

Then there is talk about free Bonus Weeks for buying today. If I checked online I could get a nice 2 bedroom for 1,500 per week or $200 per night if I wanted a 5 star place. So it may be $500 per night but heck its not $40,000 dollars+ Mainanace Fees.

Oh yea and I just love how the weasels say just for buying I'll buy you dinner and you can come here to our resort in a 2 bedroom for a bonus week. Yea right Dinner is no more than $50 per person and bonus week is no more than $800ish depending on the unit.

People just get so excited like when they gamble they just can't stop and they get so upset when they find TUG BBS. I am so fortunate to have found TUG BBS online before buying not after buying and asking did I get a good deal after buying directly from the developer and wasting time rescinding the offer.

Remember this before buying directly from the developer. Ask yourself these questions

1. Will I be happy with my investment knowing it will depreciate?
2. Can I find something similar or better for less money on resale?
3. Can I get over the lies that I will be treated different if I buy on resale?
4. Will I be proud of my purchase throwing $40,000+ down the drain knowing that I am covering the commission fees of the agent plus paying annual dues?
5. How much would it cost us to go to X buying direct vs resale?
6. What if I can't afford it how will I be able to get out of the deal?
7. Can I waste time writing the letter to rescind my purchase?
8. Why didn't I find out about TUG BBS before?
Questions like these will help you save money in the long rung and for the short term as well.


Ironically, timeshare was born as fixed week/fixed interval for the very reason that buyers wanted assurance that they would get their week and unit by owning rights to it.
 

theo

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Westgate Loses Fraud Case in Tennessee

That's the story title line from the front page of the Sep/ Oct 2015 issue (#143) of Timesharing Today which arrived here, well --- today!
The article author name is Jeff Weir. I'll quote verbatim just his opening summary line:

"Tennessee's highest courts recently affirmed a $500,000 punitive damages award and $136,000 in legal costs to a timeshare couple who sued Westgate Resorts for fraud and violating Tennessee's timeshare and consumer protection laws."

Overton vs. Westgate was first initiated in 2011 and has certainly been followed and discussed here on TUG since its' inception. Westgate lost the case at trial in 2013, then lost again on appeal. Tennessee's Supreme Court later just rejected outright Westgate's final avenue of appeal in TN in June, 2015.
Game over on this one, Mr. SeaGull --- and chalk one up for the good guys (although the numbers are probably just "chump change" to Westgate's very deep pockets).

The article is interesting and well written, but revelations therein are certainly not surprising to TUGGERS already familiar with Westgate's deceptive practices. Article is 3 pages long, but I don't think it's appropriate for me to quote or provide any more than the above --- see http://www.tstoday.com to subscribe and / or see back issues.

P.S. One fact previously unknown to me and which I personally find very interesting is that Westgate attempted (but failed) to get this case moved out of Tennessee and into Florida, where Westgate is of course based. I won't comment or speculate as to Westgate logic or intent in that failed attempt at change of venue, but TUGGERS who followed the 2015 amendments to FL timeshare law, discussed (...or should I say, disgust) at length here on TUG prior to its' unfortunate but successful railroading through the Florida legislature, are surely provided with some "food for thought" regarding the "Florida Friendly" nature of those changes --- from a developer perspective. :ponder:
 
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TUGBrian

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SMHarman

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I just have an extreme dislike for todays overly litigious society and absurd monetary numbers generated for folks that simply dont match what would normally rightfully "owed" them.
You can't lock a corporation up. So you fine them and their shareholders get mad at management.

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TUGBrian

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I dont disagree with you there, i just feel the punishments should either be non-monetary...or have these penalties spread out among more victims.

so basically...i think 500k is a trivial amount for a company that large to pay

and I think 500k is a ridiculous amount to give to a single party in this particular instance.

ohwell, it is what it is.
 

glmyers

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You can "lock up" a corporation.

You can't lock a corporation up. So you fine them and their shareholders get mad at management.

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I don't know why anyone would say a corporation cannot be locked up. It is quite simple to cause one to cease operation for a period of time. Officers of corporations can also be place in prison. The reasons for using fines to punish is simply a matter of greed.
 

SMHarman

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I don't know why anyone would say a corporation cannot be locked up. It is quite simple to cause one to cease operation for a period of time. Officers of corporations can also be place in prison. The reasons for using fines to punish is simply a matter of greed.
Because it is fact.

BP cannot be sent to jail. It was not sent to jail for Gulf of Mexico spill. That's the magic of the veil of incorporation. It's directors and officers can as you point out, but the burden of proof to get those charges to stick is high.

If you or I poured a barrel of oil overboard on a boat in the gulf and we're caught jail time is likely.

Similarly, corporate manslaughter charges usually fail. Especially in larger companies.

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Jason245

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I dont disagree with you there, i just feel the punishments should either be non-monetary...or have these penalties spread out among more victims.

so basically...i think 500k is a trivial amount for a company that large to pay

and I think 500k is a ridiculous amount to give to a single party in this particular instance.

ohwell, it is what it is.

If this was a class action things would be different (although it would be the attorney who gets all the money usually in those).

This party involved in the contract was VERY SMART. I would not be surprised if they actually walked into the timeshare presentation with this as their intent from day 1.

Think about this:

1. They got the TS salespeople to actually modify the contract for their purchase (how often do you see that happen?)
2. They were savy enough to know and document all the steps they took to get their contractual rights enforced.

most people who buy into a TS would never consider asking for contract modifications, salespeople are trained to write nothing, but speak a lot and give misleading promises.

I actuall expect that if you dug in hard enough, they probably attempted to do this at multiple resorts and had no others willing to modify contracts.
 

SMHarman

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If this was a class action things would be different (although it would be the attorney who gets all the money usually in those).

This party involved in the contract was VERY SMART. I would not be surprised if they actually walked into the timeshare presentation with this as their intent from day 1.

Think about this:

1. They got the TS salespeople to actually modify the contract for their purchase (how often do you see that happen?)
2. They were savy enough to know and document all the steps they took to get their contractual rights enforced.

most people who buy into a TS would never consider asking for contract modifications, salespeople are trained to write nothing, but speak a lot and give misleading promises.

I actuall expect that if you dug in hard enough, they probably attempted to do this at multiple resorts and had no others willing to modify contracts.
But the funny thing is Westgate were so incompetent in keeping the CD up to date that they did not even need those modifications.

And in any case doesn't the law require human readable docs. These days less and less hardware is shipped with a CD/DVD/BD drive. If I'm a Mac with a Mac book air and a iPhone how do I read these docs.

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Jason245

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But the funny thing is Westgate were so incompetent in keeping the CD up to date that they did not even need those modifications.

And in any case doesn't the law require human readable docs. These days less and less hardware is shipped with a CD/DVD/BD drive. If I'm a Mac with a Mac book air and a iPhone how do I read these docs.

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk

I am actually partially confused on the whole CD of contract thing. I would never just sign papers and them say I will have a CD mailed to me. Of course, I am the guy that asked my mortgage closing company to send me all the closing docs before I showed up to closing so that I could read them in advance for errors. I am also the guy who sat during the closing and read most of that stuff to while there, just to make sure key provisions were included.

I also sat there with a calculator and double checked math.

I didn't want to pay an attorney, so I did it myself :)

Of course, given their Profit margine, I would imagine that the $500k is probably profits on about $1.5 - 2 Million in sales.
 
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Tia

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This party involved in the contract was VERY SMART. I would not be surprised if they actually walked into the timeshare presentation with this as their intent from day 1.

.

I am glad someone was able to out smart the corporate cheaters who have purposely taken advantage of so many. These companies darn well know what is being said/promised but not being written into contracts, they use this to their financial advantage.
 

glmyers

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Because it is fact.

BP cannot be sent to jail. It was not sent to jail for Gulf of Mexico spill. That's the magic of the veil of incorporation. It's directors and officers can as you point out, but the burden of proof to get those charges to stick is high.

If you or I poured a barrel of oil overboard on a boat in the gulf and we're caught jail time is likely.

Similarly, corporate manslaughter charges usually fail. Especially in larger companies.

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk

My point is there are ways to "lock up" other than using a physical cell. When the US did not like the actions of Cuba, the government "wall them off" from the US by not allowing the country to do business. A real estate agent that breaks the rules often finds their ability to do business suspended for a period of time; there business is "locked up" for a while even if they are not. The government could have chosen to "lock up" BP's drilling operations for a period of time, but chose not to do so. There are ways to punish corporations who break the law other than requiring them to share some of their ill-gotten gains.
 

glmyers

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I am actually partially confused on the whole CD of contract thing. I would never just sign papers and them say I will have a CD mailed to me. Of course, I am the guy that asked my mortgage closing company to send me all the closing docs before I showed up to closing so that I could read them in advance for errors. I am also the guy who sat during the closing and read most of that stuff to while there, just to make sure key provisions were included.

I also sat there with a calculator and double checked math.

I didn't want to pay an attorney, so I did it myself :)

Of course, given their Profit margine, I would imagine that the $500k is probably profits on about $1.5 - 2 Million in sales.
I still remember the look on the lawyer's face at the closing for my home when I started reading through each page before signing to make sure it matched my expectations.

Along a similar line, some software license agreements have a few really funny lines in them that most of the world never gets to read.

I do think it is best to read every detail of any agreement, but I understand most people don't bother. Those people ought to be able to trust summaries presented to them.
 

SMHarman

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My point is there are ways to "lock up" other than using a physical cell. When the US did not like the actions of Cuba, the government "wall them off" from the US by not allowing the country to do business. A real estate agent that breaks the rules often finds their ability to do business suspended for a period of time; there business is "locked up" for a while even if they are not. The government could have chosen to "lock up" BP's drilling operations for a period of time, but chose not to do so. There are ways to punish corporations who break the law other than requiring them to share some of their ill-gotten gains.

But in the examples you use, you are not taking away their freedom; just some of it.

A BP that cannot drill in the US is still drilling across the globe.

Cuba cannot do business with the US but can with LatAM and Canada and Central America and Europe. Their tourists can still visit the beautiful island.

The Broker, not the brokerage is in trouble. Other brokers still operate under the umbrella and the brokerage can still sell your home.

These are other alternatives but none of them take a certificate of incorporation and incarcerate it.

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glmyers

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But in the examples you use, you are not taking away their freedom; just some of it.

A BP that cannot drill in the US is still drilling across the globe.

Cuba cannot do business with the US but can with LatAM and Canada and Central America and Europe. Their tourists can still visit the beautiful island.

The Broker, not the brokerage is in trouble. Other brokers still operate under the umbrella and the brokerage can still sell your home.

These are other alternatives but none of them take a certificate of incorporation and incarcerate it.

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk
BP could still operate elsewhere just as a criminal could be free in Switzerland when convicted by US courts and sentenced to jail time and only get to return to the US as a free person after getting a presidential pardon.

In the case of a brokerage, it depends on which broker is in trouble and why as to whether or not the brokerage can operate. If the broker in charge looses her license because of trust account violations, the firm could be shut down as a result.

Agreed, it is more along the lines of restricting there movement with an ankle monitor. However, I do think it is a better alternative to simply sharing the profits with the government in many cases. Just as thirty days in jail cost a person much more than just that time in jail, thirty days of not conducting business in a location has impact well beyond the actual restriction.

Fines are not the only option, but they are the most profitable. That is my primary point.

(Would you believe on the most common lines my mother utters to me is, "you just like to argue"?)
 

SMHarman

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BP could still operate elsewhere just as a criminal could be free in Switzerland when convicted by US courts and sentenced to jail time and only get to return to the US as a free person after getting a presidential pardon.

Fines are not the only option, but they are the most profitable. That is my primary point.

(Would you believe on the most common lines my mother utters to me is, "you just like to argue"?)

But to belabor this, you could extradite a person. You can't extradite BP.

There are alternative as you highlight. Fines work well as they remove the profit incentive to operate outside the law and in the case of an oil spill help with the cost of environmental restitution (don't get me started on the mess Exxon made in Bayonne that Christie is allowing them to get away with; 9Bn of environmental clean up 225M fine)

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Talent312

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This party involved in the contract was VERY SMART. I would not be surprised if they actually walked into the timeshare presentation with this as their intent from day 1.

Even if so, poetic justice, I say. As it was Westgate's plan to hornswaggle the buyers, from day one. Result: Hoisted on their own petard.

.
 

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