Very dissatisfied owner. How do I get rid of my weeks?

Beefnot said:

You need to re-read OP's first post in this thread.

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I noticed now that strike-out text doesn't work when I read it on my iPhone and may not be visible on other smart phones either so I will delete the mistake in post #40 that you brought to my attention. I hope that it makes better sense now what I was trying to say.

If what FT wrote in his last post is true then Marriott may offer him money that is attractive to him since he bought it so long ago or list it with the re-sale department.

iconnections said:

Windje2000 explained it very well in a few words in post #22 as well as Puckmanfl in post #17 and certainly BocaBoy where he explained how it was in the very beginning when he bought (#12 and 13). Can't you get that, FT?

You finally gave the OP some better advice rather than giving the weeks away as you did first.

Marriott shouldn't have used these sales tactics unless they made them aware of this fact and also that this program could be terminated without any notice.

I doubt if they did that in places far away so the Marriott Rewards Program was their main selling point to sign the purchase contract as no resorts were close to where they live. How many of them would have bought if this was hanging over their head?

I really wonder how many disappointed members we will get who bought at our resort in Maui? Isn't the sales pitch the same everywhere that you can go anywhere anytime but do they tell you that it may take three years to save up the points, if you buy the minimum package in Maui? Are they going to be happy if they have spent three years of maintenance fees already before even going on their first vacation? I doubt it very much.

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First, I will never get it since its my belief that MVCI did nothing wrong when they sold me my weeks. I was already a PLT member in MR way before I purchased any timeshare units. Additionally, my governing documents which I read prior to purchase said that the MR program was an affiliate program offered to owners but could be cancelled at any time. So I didn't hang my purchase decision on a benefit that can be cancelled at anytime.

The OP's position is understandable as many timeshare purchasers don't comprehend what they are buying nor do they read the purchase documents or ask questions. Their lack of understanding is no excuse for calling the establishment a rip-off.

Giving the weeks away is always a viable option which many owners end up seeking out just because they no longer have use for their units and don't care to continue paying MF. That sounds like a reasonable approach to me. Just look online for how many are offered for free or at $1.

Renting, selling, or passing to family are also alternatives as well.

Its also understandable that those who see their timeshare purchases as financial investments and not pre-paid vacations as the ones most resentful for program changes.

Way I see it, you can continue to be resentful to the establishment for sales tactics, lies, and fine print or you can focus on getting the best out of your vacation.

Better to get out and minimize your losses than continuing to be upset at history.

Its been over 20 years since the OP purchased 2 Sable Palms units only for MR points, plenty of time to realize that it was an ill advised decision in hindsight.

Better late than never.....

FT

FractionalTraveler said:

First, I will never get it since its my belief that MVCI did nothing wrong when they sold me my weeks. I was already a PLT member in MR way before I purchased any timeshare units. Additionally, my governing documents which I read prior to purchase said that the MR program was an affiliate program offered to owners but could be cancelled at any time. So I didn't hang my purchase decision on a benefit that can be cancelled at anytime.

The OP's position is understandable as many timeshare purchasers don't comprehend what they are buying nor do they read the purchase documents or ask questions. Their lack of understanding is no excuse for calling the establishment a rip-off.

Giving the weeks away is always a viable option which many owners end up seeking out just because they no longer have use for their units and don't care to continue paying MF. That sounds like a reasonable approach to me. Just look online for how many are offered for free or at $1.

Renting, selling, or passing to family are also alternatives as well.

Its also understandable that those who see their timeshare purchases as financial investments and not pre-paid vacations as the ones most resentful for program changes.

Way I see it, you can continue to be resentful to the establishment for sales tactics, lies, and fine print or you can focus on getting the best out of your vacation.

Better to get out and minimize your losses than continuing to be upset at history.

Its been over 20 years since the OP purchased 2 Sable Palms units only for MR points, plenty of time to realize that it was an ill advised decision in hindsight.

Better late than never.....

FT

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It must be nice to know everything and always be right and talk down to others who in reality are probably right at least as often as you.

FractionalTraveler said:

The miss is from timeshare owners who never expected MR to be devalued over time. That is a tiny percentage of the total population of MR account holders. Most of these folks are not timeshare owners.

Those of us who were MR account holders prior to being timeshare owners were accustomed to devaluations in MR points since we experienced this over time from the MR program's inception. So no real surprise there.

Marriott sure sells the points for cash and so do many folks on the street who are disgruntled by the MVCI program and look to take advantage of poor decisions through other illegitimate business practices.

The black market for MR points and account numbers is alive and well you just have to look beyond the window dressing to see what is happening on the street.

FT

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Again you miss the point. The issue being discussed here is not really the devaluation of MR points, but rather MVCI's decision to devalue the MR exchange option. The issue being debated here is not so much with Marriott (hotel company) but rather with the timeshare exchange value which is in MVCI's discretion.) And you are wrong when you say the MR point devaluations have been happening since inception. Actually in the first few years the benefits were significantly increased and then the devaluations started in the 1990's.

A better analogy than the ones you have used would be if the rules were changed so you could only exchange a week through II for only 3 nights instead of another full week at another property. II exchanges are also not guaranteed. Do you think owners would have no right to be upset if that change was made?

FractionalTraveler said:

The OP's position is understandable as many timeshare purchasers don't comprehend what they are buying nor do they read the purchase documents or ask questions. Their lack of understanding is no excuse for calling the establishment a rip-off.

Its also understandable that those who see their timeshare purchases as financial investments and not pre-paid vacations as the ones most resentful for program changes.

Its been over 20 years since the OP purchased 2 Sable Palms units only for MR points, plenty of time to realize that it was an ill advised decision in hindsight.

Better late than never.....

FT

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I was in fact a very knowledgeable buyer when we purchased at Sabal Palms in 1987. Based on his posts, I think the OP was also a knowledgeable buyer. I am not happy with the erosion of the MR points option (especially over the last 10-15 years), but buying in 1987 was NOT an ill-advised decision. I got a lot more value (multiples of my investment) from it than it ever cost me and I would make the same decision today even if I knew what would happen. The value was that great. It was truly one of the best financial decisions I ever made. That does not mean I should be happy that the option has essentially been taken away.

BocaBoy said:

I was in fact a very knowledgeable buyer when we purchased at Sabal Palms in 1987. Based on his posts, I think the OP was also a knowledgeable buyer. I am not happy with the erosion of the MR points option (especially over the last 10-15 years), but buying in 1987 was NOT an ill-advised decision. I got a lot more value (multiples of my investment) from it than it ever cost me and I would make the same decision today even if I knew what would happen. The value was that great. It was truly one of the best financial decisions I ever made. That does not mean I should be happy that the option has essentially been taken away.

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I am happy also with our purchase. I believe most MVCI owners are as well.

I couldn't be more excited about being a shareholder in such a well managed company.

FT

BocaBoy summarized everything so well in his last 2 posts that there is little else to add. I do think myself as a knowledgeable buyer and was always considered the local Marriott expert among friends and relatives. I am so sorry for those, like my parents, whom I convinced to buy weeks 10 years ago right before the program took a sudden plunge and now feel stuck with them. I know the program pretty well to realize that its older form is exhausted (MRPs worthless, II dry of attractive weeks, rental program heavy taxed for foreigners, occupancy rare while leaving so far) and the new one just convenient for those owners who bought at beach or ski resorts.

Are those who buy today in the Destination Programs knowledgeable buyers or just people that trust the Marriott name and will be deceived years from now with another major change? Are they trustworthy after what they did to weeks owners? What would happen if Marriott increases the amount of points needed to redeem stays in the new program? A riot? If they can't, why they do with the old program? MRPs and Destination Points exchange rates are arbitrarily managed by Marriott and they should do it in fair way. There is no justification to buy my nights at the same price (in MRPs currency) that they had 20 years ago.

The trade in for MRPs option should be kept updated and valid for those owners that rely on it like most foreign owners.

By the way, this was my letter to MVCI complaining about the same issue, written 7 years ago.

"March 27, 2007.

Dear Mr. Peter Watzka,

I have been a very happy, satisfied and loyal Marriott Owner for 14 years. During all this time I have promoted both ownership at Marriott properties and the benefits of the Rewards Program among family and friends. Many of them followed my enthusiastic recommendations and became owners. Every while I meet with them to explain, with a good deal of patience, how they can make a better use of their properties and their MR points.

However, I am struggling through a faith crisis about the Rewards Program and the advantages of ownership. It happens that I am deeply concerned about the recent changes in the Rewards Program and how it will affect owners in the near future.

As you may be aware, a few weeks ago 535 hotels experienced a category change so they now require more points to redeem an award stay. Also, the availability of Standard Rewards at most popular destinations has been drastically reduced and is non-existent at some properties. This fact makes harder to use the hotel portion of the very much appreciated Travel Packages. Most hotels only show availability by using Stay Anytime Rewards which, by the way, will increase the required points from a 50% to 100% premium in June. Other rewards like tours, tickets, cruises, etc., also require significantly more points than last year.

Points devaluation is understandable and reasonable as hotel rates have increased steeply during the last 4 years which result in more points accrued by members which eventually press for rewards. Amidst the current hotel industry boom, our properties have experienced a significant increase in their values (Sabal Palms went up 39% in one year) as well as their rates. However, if we trade our weeks for points we still receive the same fixed amount of them regardless of the higher value of our property and the nights you can rent. It looks unfair to me that we give Marriott the use of a week that has more value every year but we receive points that are worth less and less as devaluation progresses. If Marriott does not adjust our revenue in term of points the trade-in alternative will collapse and soon will affect new timeshare sales. As far as myself, in this new scenario of higher purchase prices, devaluated points and reduce award availability, I do not feel comfortable anymore referring people as prospective buyers.

Finally, I believe that Marriott owners should be granted Silver status when we trade in our weeks. The nights that we redeem with our points are not free by any means if you calculate our expenses, taxes and a conservative interest rate over our investment. If we redeem those points for nights, we are basically paying for them so we deserve those nights to count towards elite status.

I am confident that Marriott will review these issues and will make some changes pretty soon and I hope that you can find a way to keep owners as happy as always. Thank you very much for your attention.

Sincerely,

XX"

And his response was???

Frisbeeace said:

By the way, this was my letter to MVCI complaining about the same issue, written 7 years ago.

"March 27, 2007.

Dear Mr. Peter Watzka,

I have been a very happy, satisfied and loyal Marriott Owner for 14 years.............I am confident that Marriott will review these issues and will make some changes pretty soon and I hope that you can find a way to keep owners as happy as always. Thank you very much for your attention.

Sincerely,

XX"

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I wrote a similar letter on January 16, 2009 and I received no response of any kind. That was during the period when I felt Marriott no longer cared about its owners. I sold my last Sabal Palms week after this. I think that MVCI's attitude toward its owners has improved since the spinoff, but not on the subject of this thread. And that subject is most critical to owners of non-lockoff units like Sabal Palms, which are eligible to trade for MR points every year.

BocaBoy said:

I wrote a similar letter on January 16, 2009 and I received no response of any kind. That was during the period when I felt Marriott no longer cared about its owners. I sold my last Sabal Palms week after this.........

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Apparently you and I both showed our displeasure and sold when we became disillusioned by changes Marriott made to the programs that were in place when we bought. Many others just hung in there, I believe to their detriment.

George

I see it differently.

If you bought where you wanted to go 20 years ago you got 20 years of vacations.
Add the annual maintenance over 20 years to the purchase price and divide by 20. That is what your annual vacation stay cost you.

Could you have rented a 2 bedroom villa for that price each year?
Or maybe you were able to turn your week into 3 weeks as many of us did with trades. Maybe change the divisor to 40 or 60.

That was essentially what you bought. You got the benefit of the bargain IMO. Even if you sell for a fraction of what you paid you are ahead of the game.

You are missing the point. Sabal Palms was the first TS built by Marriott. When I bought they very clearly sold their Resale Program, their Rental Program and the ability to trade for a specific number of MRPs every year as part of the "package". What I bought was the right to my unit every year and access to these Programs. They then devalued these Programs to my detriment. So I voted with my feet and sold my Sabal Palms, Harbour Club, Heritage Club and Monarch Weeks because I felt I could no longer trust Marriott.

George

PS Again, don't get me wrong. Nothing wrong with the Resorts, just Marriott Corporate's greed. The Resorts are great.

bogey21 said:

You are missing the point. Sabal Palms was the first TS built by Marriott. When I bought they very clearly sold their Resale Program, their Rental Program and the ability to trade for a specific number of MRPs every year as part of the "package". What I bought was the right to my unit every year and access to these Programs. They then devalued these Programs to my detriment. So I voted with my feet and sold my Sabal Palms, Harbour Club, Heritage Club and Monarch Weeks because I felt I could no longer trust Marriott.

George

PS Again, don't get me wrong. Nothing wrong with the Resorts, just Marriott Corporate's greed. The Resorts are great.

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I did not miss your point.
I made a different point beginning with "If you bought where you wanted to go 20 years ago" . . . .I said nothing about trading or renting or MRPs.
You obviously did not buy where you wanted to go -- so my post does not apply to you.

bogey21 said:

You are missing the point. Sabal Palms was the first TS built by Marriott. When I bought they very clearly sold their Resale Program, their Rental Program and the ability to trade for a specific number of MRPs every year as part of the "package". What I bought was the right to my unit every year and access to these Programs. They then devalued these Programs to my detriment. So I voted with my feet and sold my Sabal Palms, Harbour Club, Heritage Club and Monarch Weeks because I felt I could no longer trust Marriott.

George

PS Again, don't get me wrong. Nothing wrong with the Resorts, just Marriott Corporate's greed. The Resorts are great.

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We get the point. However, you also signed a document that said you understood that the "package" was a mirage and subject to change at any time. The only thing you are buying is a week of occupancy per year at Sabal Palms, nothing more nothing less and it is not an investment.

FL was trying to tell you and protect you from exactly what happened so it should not have been a surprise.

As PP stated, I got far more from my weeks than promised so no regrets here. Still a happy owner and enjoying my vacations.

wuv pooh said:

We get the point. However, you also signed a document that said you understood that the "package" was a mirage and subject to change at any time. The only thing you are buying is a week of occupancy per year at Sabal Palms, nothing more nothing less and it is not an investment.

FL was trying to tell you and protect you from exactly what happened so it should not have been a surprise.

As PP stated, I got far more from my weeks than promised so no regrets here. Still a happy owner and enjoying my vacations.

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This is exactly the sort of post that makes my hackles rise. You're okay with your situation so you think anyone else should be too and yet you don't reveal any real understanding of the issue being discussed. For example, nobody other than FT has mentioned buying as an investment so why do you bring this spurious and irrelevant point up too?

And why do you think it is okay for Marriott to sell features that are later diluted or withdrawn just because the small print says they can? The point being made by the OP and others is that they thought they could trust Marriott to be honourable and you and FT seem to be saying that they are fools for thinking so, even though they didn't have the benefit of the hindsight that you both seem to rely on so heavily.

It is a cliche that you buy only home week usage and those that constantly spew out this 'golden rule' reek of complacency. The fact is that is not what is being sold. The ability to exchange is an integral part of buying timeshares and, yes, the exchange options are subject to change but is it really okay for the changes to be constantly to the detriment of the purchaser. I can only assume that you and FT run payday loan companies.

wuv pooh said:

FL was trying to tell you and protect you from exactly what happened so it should not have been a surprise.

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Fortunately I didn't need FL to protect me. I handled the situation my way. When I didn't like what was happening I sold my 4 Weeks, at a profit I might add. Actually in hindsight I am better off for selling my Marriott Weeks and using 1/10 of the $85,000 sale proceeds to buy Weeks at 6 HOA controlled Independent Resorts which I enjoyed for years.

George

pacheco18 said:

I see it differently.
If you bought where you wanted to go 20 years ago you got 20 years of vacations.

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That's another false assumption. Sales pitches are completely different when Marriott sells to customers outside the US. In the 90's and until a few years ago they were very persuasive in telling us that the best deal was to buy anywhere where we could trade for as many MRPs as possible every year, regardless of its location. I know people that bought in Williamsburg without even knowing where it was located on the map because of the convenient cost/profit (in MRPs) ratio. For people in my country, the cost of airfare for the whole family exceeds by far the cost of lodging (1 week = 1 ticket) so the main reason to buy a Marriott timeshare always was the trade-in option to redeem then for travel packages rather than occupying or exchanging at II. MRPs was our saving currency and this was Marriott's main argument to sell their weeks around here. Sabal and Royal Palms sold real well because they allowed trading every year comparing to other resorts that only allowed EOY. Basically, Marriott timeshares were sold like a points program, almost a (faulty) prototype of what the Destination Program is today. People in these countries were actually buying points not weeks as we were assured that those points would grant us travel packagesand hotel stays forever. As BocaBoy recalled, 130,000 points were good for 2 tickets anywhere in the world, 8-nights at a top category hotel and a car!! Now we can barely stay 2-3 nights at a high end hotel.

Again, if Marriott grants in written that the Destination Programs will not be devalued over time, I can not understand why they did so with the MRPs trade-in option. The only thing they had to do is adjust up what we get. They have room for that as I get 110,000 for a week that they give away for 210,000.

By the way, Marriott Resales has just offered me $4,300 for each week, less $500 fees and less 10% tax withholding.

Frisbeeace said:

By the way, Marriott Resales has just offered me $4,300 for each week, less $500 fees and less 10% tax withholding.

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There you go, a way to quickly get rid of your weeks.

One thing to note that the written guarantee is only that it will not be devalued for any of the current vacation club properties. There are no such promises for any future vacation resorts, any hotel stays or any of the other vacation trips or cruises that are currently offered by trading in destination points.

answeeney said:

This is exactly the sort of post that makes my hackles rise. You're okay with your situation so you think anyone else should be too and yet you don't reveal any real understanding of the issue being discussed. For example, nobody other than FT has mentioned buying as an investment so why do you bring this spurious and irrelevant point up too?

And why do you think it is okay for Marriott to sell features that are later diluted or withdrawn just because the small print says they can? The point being made by the OP and others is that they thought they could trust Marriott to be honourable and you and FT seem to be saying that they are fools for thinking so, even though they didn't have the benefit of the hindsight that you both seem to rely on so heavily.

It is a cliche that you buy only home week usage and those that constantly spew out this 'golden rule' reek of complacency. The fact is that is not what is being sold. The ability to exchange is an integral part of buying timeshares and, yes, the exchange options are subject to change but is it really okay for the changes to be constantly to the detriment of the purchaser. I can only assume that you and FT run payday loan companies.

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1. I said that because it is the same disclosure. You are buying a week, period. Anything else is a promise that you cannot rely on. In the same disclosure they say you should not buy as an investment. This is meant to protect you from the most common salesman lies.

2. Yes, I work in contracts all the time. When someone tells me they have the legal right to screw me, but that they would never do it then I would not base my decision on that promise. Sorry you believe different, but you learned.

3. It is not a cliché. It is what you are buying. A 1/52nd interest in a condominium.

Marriott is a business and marketing pitches change all the time. Every time they change there are new value opportunities to take advantage of. Personally I prefer to use my time finding the value than whining about how things used to be. I don't think anyone has to feel the same, but I will say that I believe it is a lot more productive.

bogey21 said:

Fortunately I didn't need FL to protect me. I handled the situation my way. When I didn't like what was happening I sold my 4 Weeks, at a profit I might add. Actually in hindsight I am better off for selling my Marriott Weeks and using 1/10 of the $85,000 sale proceeds to buy Weeks at 6 HOA controlled Independent Resorts which I enjoyed for years.

George

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I agree. I also received more value from Marriott than I paid for. Now I have to extract that value in a different manner, but I still like using the weeks and taking the vacations.

I am glad it worked out for you. Really only early DVC or Marriott purchasers ever made any cash money on developer purchases. Some have done quite well on resales.

Frisbeeace said:

Again, if Marriott grants in written that the Destination Programs will not be devalued over time, I can not understand why they did so with the MRPs trade-in option. The only thing they had to do is adjust up what we get. They have room for that as I get 110,000 for a week that they give away for 210,000.

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Marriott makes no such promise. Destination points are deeded just like weeks are, so by definition cannot be devalued or Marriott could sell the same resort multiple times which is illegal. They can redistribute points but they cannot devalue them in a total sense.

In the coming years people will be complaining that they can no longer trade into the Ritz Carlton Club for as few points, or that cruises cost more points, etc. Any usage option beside occupying your week will be devalued.

That is how the business model handles inflation over time. You have purchased a currency (week or points) for a fixed price in advance. When you try to exchange that currency over time (other than for its purpose) it will buy less due to inflation in the travel industry.

Once you figure this out you game the system, get out of the game, or complain, but I do not see Marriott changing their business model.

good evening...

This thread is becoming disturbing... but it is TUG...unless you bought resale where you want to go, you have no right to lament anything else...

We will need to close a lot of threads...

We all bought a week in our season, nothing more nothing less..

so...

IF II inventory dries up...sorry trading was never guaranteed..you signed a document saying so!!!

You can't book a week at your home resort when you want to go, because all the multi week owners got there first..sorry, you do get some week in your season...your platinum week at newport is november...sorry, it is in your season..

MVCD decides to give enrolled DC members fewer points for their week, sorry DC legacy points is trading and this was never guaranteed...

Your OF 3 bedroom (first floor) at Ocean Pointe looks right into the trees and the shuffle board court and some trees without a hint of seeing the ocean..sorry, you are on the "oceanfront"

MF's going up at 10%/year..sorry, nothing besides your occupancy is guaranteed...

Multi week owners can't book on line at 13 monrths...sorry you have your week in season!!!!

you get the point..most of the stuff we rant about is about the "other stuff" The OP was just lamenting the loss of MRP power over time!!!

we are all still are guaranteed a week in our season!!!!

Thanks, I feel better now!!!!

puckmanfl said:

.....we are all still are guaranteed a week in our season!!!!

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And if you bought from Marriott at developer prices, you are guaranteed a loss when you decide to sell.

George