Very dissatisfied owner. How do I get rid of my weeks?

Frisbeeace · Apr 21, 2014

wuv pooh said:
Marriott makes no such promise. Destination points are deeded just like weeks are, so by definition cannot be devalued or Marriott could sell the same resort multiple times which is illegal. They can redistribute points but they cannot devalue them in a total sense.

What if the points required to stay at your own resort or any other increase? That's a devaluation in every sense. They´ve done that so they most likely will do again. The "skimming" exists because it means profit for them which can be enlarged at their wish.

answeeney · Apr 21, 2014

wuv pooh said:
1. I said that because it is the same disclosure. You are buying a week, period. Anything else is a promise that you cannot rely on. In the same disclosure they say you should not buy as an investment. This is meant to protect you from the most common salesman lies.

2. Yes, I work in contracts all the time. When someone tells me they have the legal right to screw me, but that they would never do it then I would not base my decision on that promise. Sorry you believe different, but you learned.

3. It is not a cliché. It is what you are buying. A 1/52nd interest in a condominium.

Marriott is a business and marketing pitches change all the time. Every time they change there are new value opportunities to take advantage of. Personally I prefer to use my time finding the value than whining about how things used to be. I don't think anyone has to feel the same, but I will say that I believe it is a lot more productive.

You say you are buying a week, period, and yes you are right. But that is not what is being sold and that is not what the vast majority of purchasers understand that they are buying. All of the timeshare sales material and the pitch itself places considerable emphasis in the exchange opportunities and when Marriott systematically undermines these, in my view, it is being underhand. Yes, clever people like you can sneer at the foolishness of people who didn't spend a year reading TUG boards prior to purchase and who don't have contract law training and so don't buy resale and, crime of all crimes, take the salesmen's pitch on trust. It is always easy to mock anyone who takes a decision that you with your extra wisdom would not have taken. But is Marriott's only role in this to maximise the take from the marks that stroll into its salerooms?

SueDonJ · Apr 21, 2014

Frisbeeace said:
What if the points required to stay at your own resort or any other increase? That's a devaluation in every sense. They´ve done that so they most likely will do again. The "skimming" exists because it means profit for them which can be enlarged at their wish.

Skimming was built into the DC introduction by way of enrolled Weeks' DC Points allowances, but I don't believe that it can continue to happen through "inflationary" increases in the DC Points Charts, the way it happens with Marriott Rewards Points. We have to remember that the DC Points Charts are subject to timeshare laws and all amounts have to correlate to the DC Trust. The Marriott Rewards program is an entirely different animal in that it's a customer rewards system which Marriott can interpret and amend as they see fit.

Although the DC governing docs don't make the entire metric perfectly clear, Marriott execs and reps have said that any increases of Points requirements in a single resort's Points Chart must be offset by matching-amount decreases elsewhere in that chart (and not elsewhere as in anywhere in any other resorts' Charts.) To date since the DC inception the only such increases have occurred with holidays during the 2015 Points Chart, and in fact all of those increases were offset by decreases within the same resort Charts.

See this TUG thread; note the link in Post #4 to a statement from TUGger MVCI Customer Advocate, a user name associated with Marriott's Customer Advocacy office.

Having said all that, it's possible for Marriott to devalue DC Exchange Members' usage by decreasing the DC Points allowances for enrolled Weeks. There's no telling if/when that will happen but probably Marriott already knows whatever target numbers that would trigger it. This type of devaluation wouldn't affect purchased DC Trust Points.

tschwa2 · Apr 21, 2014

I don't think Marriott sales reps originally sold with the promise of exchanging to MR points with the direct knowledge that in the future their would be a major devaluation. I am sure the decision to keep the MR points flat for turning in the TS while increasing the MR points needed for various hotel stays and air programs was made by a department other than sales. The devaluation of hotel points and airline points is a reality throughout the travel industry not just the TS industry. Now that Marriott spun the Vacation division into a separate company exchanging for MR points is kind of like exchanging with any outside vendor. Marriott vacations could increase the number of points to keep them more in line but especially since they aren't selling weeks anymore it doesn't even make sense to subsidize the program as a sales incentive.

I think earlier in the thread someone mentioned that none of the major hotel timeshares increased hotel rewards points for trading in the timeshare week. I actually think Hilton did a one time adjustment but only on a scale of something like a 25% increase that went along with just about a 100% increase in the number of points required for most hotel stays ( total increase after several years of increases). Hilton is still in active sales but even with the increase trading a weeks worth of TS stay for hotel stay isn't a very good financial incentive but sales reps still try to spin it like it is.

dioxide45 · Apr 21, 2014

tschwa2 said:
I don't think Marriott sales reps originally sold with the promise of exchanging to MR points with the direct knowledge that in the future their would be a major devaluation. I am sure the decision to keep the MR points flat for turning in the TS while increasing the MR points needed for various hotel stays and air programs was made by a department other than sales. The devaluation of hotel points and airline points is a reality throughout the travel industry not just the TS industry. Now that Marriott spun the Vacation division into a separate company exchanging for MR points is kind of like exchanging with any outside vendor. Marriott vacations could increase the number of points to keep them more in line but especially since they aren't selling weeks anymore it doesn't even make sense to subsidize the program as a sales incentive.

I am not sure one is really exchanging through an outside vendor when they trade their week for MR points. Sure they get points in the MR program. However, I think that MVCI is purchasing points from Marriott Rewards. Then giving those points out in a number of ways, sales incentives, tour incentives and MR point week conversions. Sales and marketing pay for the two former and renting out a week converted to MR points is what pays for the former.

So MVCI takes your week, gives you points and rents out the week for more and more cash each year while still handing out the same number of MR points to the owner.

tschwa2 · Apr 21, 2014

I understand but the fact that Marriott rewards devalued what a Marriott reward point could purchase doesn't mean that they are selling the Marriott reward points to MVCI for less than what they sold them for 10 years ago. MVCI could afford to buy more points (and then pass them along) because they are making more renting the vacation club units now than they were 10 years ago. The points were a selling point and at the price the vacation club division paid per point it worked out well for both Marriott and for owners. I'm sure MVCI isn't losing money on the points payouts overall currently but are they really able to rent all of those Orlando units (and other units in overbuilt areas) that are given in for MR points? The difference between some of the gold and silver weeks and platinum weeks aren't huge but there are probably a fair number of units that don't get rented out at all or for very little during even shoulder season at resorts with lots of inventory. Marriott also has their own weeks to rent out and getting $400 from in Interval Getaway rental may not pay for the MR points given to the owner.

I completely understand the frustration of the OP and the desire for MVCI to "make it right", I just don't see it happening and selling ASAP even for a loss seems to be the best solution although surely not the one he was hoping for.

siesta · Apr 21, 2014

answeeney said:
This is exactly the sort of post that makes my hackles rise. You're okay with your situation so you think anyone else should be too and yet you don't reveal any real understanding of the issue being discussed. For example, nobody other than FT has mentioned buying as an investment so why do you bring this spurious and irrelevant point up too?

And why do you think it is okay for Marriott to sell features that are later diluted or withdrawn just because the small print says they can? The point being made by the OP and others is that they thought they could trust Marriott to be honourable and you and FT seem to be saying that they are fools for thinking so, even though they didn't have the benefit of the hindsight that you both seem to rely on so heavily.

It is a cliche that you buy only home week usage and those that constantly spew out this 'golden rule' reek of complacency. The fact is that is not what is being sold. The ability to exchange is an integral part of buying timeshares and, yes, the exchange options are subject to change but is it really okay for the changes to be constantly to the detriment of the purchaser. I can only assume that you and FT run payday loan companies.

what a well-worded and on-point post. If this were Facebook I would "Like" this.

Btw, TugBrian, any chance to get up/down vote ability for posts?

Fayeoctober · Apr 22, 2014

I agree with siesta that the post by answeeney was very well worded and on point. We bought our Marriott Manor Club in Williamsburg about 20 years ago with the intention of staying there most of the time but the point option was an added attraction. Also at that time they had a hotel in Bermuda - since closed - and that was appealing as well. I really don't think some of the comments which imply that some buyers should have known what was going on are appropriate.

If I had to do it over again knowing what I know now I would not have purchased our timeshare in Williamsburg. The Marriott name held a lot of sway and it has decreased significantly in my eyes.

But would I try and sell my timeshare in this market where they are going for practically next to nothing - no - it has gotten me some decent trades with Interval and we do use it most years. And I imagine the weeks that I did turn in for points, although not recently, helped me to get to Lifetime Platinum Elite Status with the Rewards program.

EducatedConsumer · Apr 22, 2014

The O.P. is correct, there was a time when Marriott's sales and marketing platform at Sabal and Royal Palm was "buy two Red weeks, and you'll have enough points for a World Trip every year (at that time: 7 nights in any Marriott Hotel worldwide, 2 round trip airline tickets anywhere Marriott's affiliated airlines fly in the world, and a 7 or 8 day Hertz rental car)." Each Marriott Vacation Club resort back than seemed to have their own, unique, sales and marketing catch: for example, at Desert Springs Villas I, it was occupy the studio, give Marriott your master suite to rent, and the rental income from your master suite will pay for your maintenance fee (and you'll still have a week of vacation at Desert Springs Villas I (in your studio)). At Summit Watch, when Marriott had sold out much of their Platinum, and later gold weeks, the platform was: buy a silver week, Interval is color blind, and use that silver week to go anywhere you want in the Marriott system.

Having owned at Sabal Palm, since pretty much it's inception, I look back at the years of wonderful vacations that our family enjoyed, and have no regrets. Those were the days. However, the value proposition of our Marriott weeks has changed (as it relates to points and rental income). We look back at the vacations that we have enjoyed, and our up-front, and annualized costs, and have no regrets. We got far more than our money's worth out of those weeks (in the day!). Now, our weeks have far less value to us, and our strategy is to look back at the many wonderful vacations that we had, and to enjoy those memories, and to look forward, and sell our weeks for whatever we can get for them.

What's that saying, someone's junk is someone else's treasure?

thinze3 · Apr 22, 2014

So the OP still gets his same 110,000 MR points but he now needs 280,000 to reserve his own unit.

It probably took 150,000 MR points to reserve his own unit when he bought.

FractionalTraveler · Apr 22, 2014

Stepping back for a moment and considering the content of this thread as a whole, the question I would like to solicit additional feedback on is as follows:

How different is this from any other company that enhances, modifies, tweaks, changes, deletes, or evolves its core product offerings over time?

Understanding that changes over time may benefit or negatively impact some portion of the customer base with every modification introduced.

There is a product life cycle that companies use to evolve their offerings based upon what they think will sell in the short term and towards the future. That's an essential part of corporate sustainability.

Many that have commented in this thread have stated that the benefits were great when they purchased 20 years ago but now not so much for them. Certainly the product has evolved over time to what it is today (rightly or wrongly).

And most of those same owners complaining here today 20 years later are a true testament to the program that value is still being derived from the program (one way or another).

Unfortunately, what was a good offer before may not be a good offer in todays marketplace. So in reality what we are experiencing with the program is its evolution into what Marriott may feel is best for the marketplace today and the profile of the leisure traveler in 2014 not necessarily the one from 1984 when the program was launched.

If they had continued to sell and market the product today the same way they did 20 years ago would they even still be around?

The evolution to the points program has been well documented and each and every quarterly review since the spinoff indicate that the program has been well received and as a result the company is doing well for the moment.

In fact customer satisfaction rates have gone up a few percentage points since the program's evolution in 2010.

So with all this in mind, is what they have done to evolve their products really any different than what any other company would look to do with their products over time?

I think not.

FT

SueDonJ · Apr 22, 2014

FractionalTraveler said:
… How different is this from any other company that enhances, modifies, tweaks, changes, deletes, or evolves its core product offerings over time? ...

It's not, really, as has been acknowledged already by most everyone participating in this thread. But just because Marriott can devalue this one particular exchange component of their timeshares, doesn't mean that owners won't continue to lament the value loss of what was the single, defining difference between a Marriott-direct purchase and any external purchases.

I said it before in this thread - this one thing isn't the same as all the other misconceptions, lies, fabrications (whatever you want to call them) that some sales reps used to sell Marriott timeshares. The MRP exchange option was a real, tangible, valuable benefit that has been systematically eroded.

I'm usually among the first to say that what's in the governing docs is the be-all and end-all that stipulates what Marriott might "owe" us. You're correct, FT, that the particular governing doc related to this benefit clearly states the exact amount of MRP for which a Week can be exchanged, as well as the fact that the benefit isn't a deeded right but rather an add-on amendment which contains language allowing Marriott to implement at will. Obviously Marriott has the right to never deviate from the exact MRP amounts.

But others are also correct that Marriott has always had the right, by virtue of that language, to implement it in such a way that the MRP values could have been increased (or decreased) to correlate to every hotel/resort category changes that Marriott has made over the years. Marriott chose not to do that - and IMO the timeshare owners who fault Marriott for not doing that are justified in assigning that fault.

FT, I wish you would answer the question that's been asked repeatedly - if Marriott had chosen in cooperation with II to implement that exchange system such that the values of Weeks in II would have consistently devalued over the years, would you be as accepting of it? It's almost a guarantee that no one would! But the contractual arrangement between MVCI/MVW and II allows as much leeway as that between MVCI/MVW and MR, so why is it tolerable that the Weeks exchange values are only protected in one system and not the other?

bogey21 · Apr 22, 2014

FractionalTraveler said:
If they had continued to sell and market the product today the same way they did 20 years ago would they even still be around?

Yes! And I would probably still be an Owner!

George

FractionalTraveler · Apr 22, 2014

SueDonJ said:
It's not, really, as has been acknowledged already by most everyone participating in this thread. But just because Marriott can devalue this one particular exchange component of their timeshares, doesn't mean that owners won't continue to lament the value loss of what was the single, defining difference between a Marriott-direct purchase and any external purchases.

I said it before in this thread - this one thing isn't the same as all the other misconceptions, lies, fabrications (whatever you want to call them) that some sales reps used to sell Marriott timeshares. The MRP exchange option was a real, tangible, valuable benefit that has been systematically eroded.

I'm usually among the first to say that what's in the governing docs is the be-all and end-all that stipulates what Marriott might "owe" us. You're correct, FT, that the particular governing doc related to this benefit clearly states the exact amount of MRP for which a Week can be exchanged, as well as the fact that the benefit isn't a deeded right but rather an add-on amendment which contains language allowing Marriott to implement at will. Obviously Marriott has the right to never deviate from the exact MRP amounts.

But others are also correct that Marriott has always had the right, by virtue of that language, to implement it in such a way that the MRP values could have been increased (or decreased) to correlate to every hotel/resort category changes that Marriott has made over the years. Marriott chose not to do that - and IMO the timeshare owners who fault Marriott for not doing that are justified in assigning that fault.

FT, I wish you would answer the question that's been asked repeatedly - if Marriott had chosen in cooperation with II to implement that exchange system such that the values of Weeks in II would have consistently devalued over the years, would you be as accepting of it? It's almost a guarantee that no one would! But the contractual arrangement between MVCI/MVW and II allows as much leeway as that between MVCI/MVW and MR, so why is it tolerable that the Weeks exchange values are only protected in one system and not the other?

Sue,

I would love to answer that question but regrettably I feel unqualified to do so since I have only used II twice in my lifetime (once for Trapp family lodge in Vermont and once for Banff in Canada). For my usage, II is a non factor. It can go away tomorrow and it would not affect my vacation experience.

Our usage over the years has been to occupy, rent out, or give the weeks away to family/friends when we could not occupy. Only traded for MR option once back in 1999.

If they ever did that one day, I sincerely doubt I would care but that is just based upon our historical usage. I understand others love II exchanges and it would be a hardship if it occurred.

FT

jhac007 · Apr 22, 2014

Weeks vs. Points

One version.....a week is seven days any where in this country and how can anyone Marriott/Governments etc. change that? Sure we would be upset if it were tried but that's a pretty sure given! Now it has been said "weeks" are obsolete and all kinds of other negative reasoning, but, my opinion is surely all the Developers saw they have far less control over weeks over a long period of time therefore WE need to add to/introduce a new product. Enter points systems that solved all the flexibility problems that weeks lacked and what ever else perks that may be applied! Great news, but the Developers have now got you back where they want you and they can control value directly and harshly if desired. The old weeks owners are still hanging around but a week is a week and also has some power. I have mostly weeks, one small points account (which I probably will get rid of) and use MR points. Marriott has always had control over MR points and to those that have not realized it yet will always have control of DC points. BTW, I am being realistic and realize Developers will try every trick to get rid of the weeks gig or make owners think they are worthless but meanwhile for the points group it's like "boiling the frog"!

Jim

Frisbeeace · Apr 22, 2014

tschwa2 said:
The devaluation of hotel points and airline points is a reality throughout the travel industry not just the TS industry.

I'm not complaining for the devaluation of my banked MRPs which I understand and accept. I complain for devaluation of my nights. They are a good, a product that I trade when I can't use it.

I get paid, in MRP currency, the same price as 20 years ago while Marriott sell my product at 2-3x more!! Can anyone argue with this? Those who talk about inflation don't think that it should also impact on my nights?

Marriott is doing it differently now with the DC with the restriction to compensante highs with lows. But they will devaluate DC points against other uses like hotel stays, cruises, safaris or whatever they are tempting new customers with.

FractionalTraveler · Apr 22, 2014

Frisbeeace said:
I'm not complaining for the devaluation of my banked MRPs which I understand and accept. I complain for devaluation of my nights. They are a good, a product that I trade when I can't use it.

I get paid, in MRP currency, the same price as 20 years ago while Marriott sell my product at 2-3x more!! Can anyone argue with this? Those who talk about inflation don't think that it should also impact on my nights?

Marriott is doing it differently now with the DC with the restriction to compensante highs with lows. But they will devaluate DC points against other uses like hotel stays, cruises, safaris or whatever they are tempting new customers with.

You can rent your own product at 2-3x more than what you paid 20 years ago as well......

FT

taffy19 · Apr 22, 2014

wuv pooh said:
We get the point. However, you also signed a document that said you understood that the "package" was a mirage and subject to change at any time. The only thing you are buying is a week of occupancy per year at Sabal Palms, nothing more nothing less and it is not an investment.

FL was trying to tell you and protect you from exactly what happened so it should not have been a surprise.

As PP stated, I got far more from my weeks than promised so no regrets here. Still a happy owner and enjoying my vacations.

Please, can you clarify? There may be others who do not know about this either. TIA.

taffy19 · Apr 22, 2014

thinze3 said:
So the OP still gets his same 110,000 MR points but he now needs 280,000 to reserve his own unit.

It probably took 150,000 MR points to reserve his own unit when he bought.

Does this mean that the OP can't reserve his week like we can here in the USA? I am lost. No wonder he is griping if this is true.

taffy19 · Apr 22, 2014

jhac007 said:
One version.....a week is seven days any where in this country and how can anyone Marriott/Governments etc. change that? Sure we would be upset if it were tried but that's a pretty sure given! Now it has been said "weeks" are obsolete and all kinds of other negative reasoning, but, my opinion is surely all the Developers saw they have far less control over weeks over a long period of time therefore WE need to add to/introduce a new product. Enter points systems that solved all the flexibility problems that weeks lacked and what ever else perks that may be applied! Great news, but the Developers have now got you back where they want you and they can control value directly and harshly if desired. The old weeks owners are still hanging around but a week is a week and also has some power. I have mostly weeks, one small points account (which I probably will get rid of) and use MR points. Marriott has always had control over MR points and to those that have not realized it yet will always have control of DC points. BTW, I am being realistic and realize Developers will try every trick to get rid of the weeks gig or make owners think they are worthless but meanwhile for the points group it's like "boiling the frog"!

Jim

They can't mess with fixed week/unit owners as far as I know, at least, I hope so.

We used part of our points this year as rents are very high where the Marriott is located in Ka'anapali Beach. We will not do that again because we lost our whole 2 BR condo while you can lock-off with II. Using points for another location would be OK so we are staying in the DC program. We are rewarded many points so it is a good exchange for the Maui owners. I wonder if that can be changed also?

Buying for use is the very best approach and always has been or will be, IMO.

FractionalTraveler · Apr 22, 2014

Frisbeeace said:
I'm not complaining for the devaluation of my banked MRPs which I understand and accept. I complain for devaluation of my nights. They are a good, a product that I trade when I can't use it.

I get paid, in MRP currency, the same price as 20 years ago while Marriott sell my product at 2-3x more!! Can anyone argue with this? Those who talk about inflation don't think that it should also impact on my nights?

Marriott is doing it differently now with the DC with the restriction to compensante highs with lows. But they will devaluate DC points against other uses like hotel stays, cruises, safaris or whatever they are tempting new customers with.

According to Marriott.com there are 21 Hotels across 7 brands in South America today.

You mentioned in your first post that "As a foreign owner you can not occupy or travel with the whole family every year" so maybe you could travel regionally every other year or so and still take advantage of your MR benefits.

Of the 21 hotels over 75% are CAT 6 or less in 2014. Meaning you could use your 110K MR points every other year for a 7 night stay at a nice hotel in LATAM. That is for only one of your Sable Palms weeks. If you combined the MR points for both weeks then you would have a nice vacation each year.

You could also take advantage of travel packages, Point Savers, and Seasonal Awards to enhance your MR vacations at Marriott hotels.

So all is not lost with your specific usage scenario.

FT

dioxide45 · Apr 22, 2014

iconnections said:
Does this mean that the OP can't reserve his week like we can here in the USA? I am lost. No wonder he is griping if this is true.

Terry is just pointing out the "skim" on MR conversion of the OPs week to MR points and if he tried to turn around and book that same 7 nights with a MR hotel certificate.

The OP can still reserve his home resort week at Sabal Palms for 7 nights. Though living in South America makes traveling for that week difficult and costly.

This is a problem that many foreign owners face. Especially those outside of Europe. Those in Europe also have similar challenges, but at least they have a few resorts close by to pick from.

BocaBoy · Apr 22, 2014

This has been a very interesting thread, and I want to thank the several of you who sent me PMs thanking me for my contributions. As answeeney said in one post, this thread also "got my hackles up" and I appreciate the support I have received. I have owned Marriott timeshares longer than just about everyone else here and sometimes this historical perspective is indeed relevant to understanding an issue.

OldPantry · Apr 23, 2014

FractionalTraveler said:
And 20 years ago fuel was 1.29/Gal., a loaf of bread was .39 cents, and a flight to London from Miami was $500.

So, what exactly is your point? Maybe your expectation was that Hotels rooms would still be rented for $59 dollars/night after 20 years?

I don't see how its Marriott's issue that you purchased something in another country that you knowingly were unsure if you could use......

By all means, if you can't use it then rent it, sell, it, give it away, etc. But I think its unfair to call it a rip-off.

Its understandable to be disappointed with your current situation. You can place your units for sale on TUG, Redweek, ebay, etc.
.
FT

Hey FT, you're mangling the guy's point. Sure, there's been inflation in the cost of hotel rooms, but do you think his maintenance fees haven't risen sharply over the years as well? Why is it unreasonable for him to be disappointed that his points cost him far more now than originally, but can be exchanged for far fewer nights than before? Marriott's steady debasement of point values has damaged its timeshare clientelle, and they have every right to be angry. And please, at least do the math correctly: seven nights at $1400 would be $200 a night, hardly the absurd $59 figure you accuse him of expecting. You hauled that number out of ... where?

bogey21 · Apr 23, 2014

BocaBoy said:
This has been a very interesting thread, and I want to thank the several of you who sent me PMs thanking me for my contributions. As answeeney said in one post, this thread also "got my hackles up" and I appreciate the support I have received. I have owned Marriott timeshares longer than just about everyone else here and sometimes this historical perspective is indeed relevant to understanding an issue.

Hear, hear! You and I must have bought at the same time. I bought pre-construction without ever visiting the property. While I was at the airport waiting for my flight home from HHI I opened my copy of the Island Packet and found two full page ads for TS Weeks, Sabal Palms and Kemmons Wilson's Orange Lake. I called both, talked to Salesmen and bought a Week at Sabal Palms on the phone from the Savannah Airport. Even at Developer prices it was a great buy when you factored in the ability to exchange for MRP every year and Marriott's Rental Program and Resale Programs.

George

Very dissatisfied owner. How do I get rid of my weeks?

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