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Fractional Ritz Carlton - Jupiter. How to exit the system. Parental death.

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Hello all,

I need some help here. My father recently past away and we're (me) trying to get all the ducks in a row for my Mom. She does not have the income to support the mortgage nor the membership fees for Ritz Calton Jupiter. We've tried to call and explain, but they will not listen; nor do they care.

Anyone have any options that we can explore in order to get out of this?
 

DeniseM

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Unfortunately, you usually can't resell a property like this until it's paid off, because the resale value is usually less than the mortgage.

Was the property in your father's name only, or was it already in her name?

If wasn't on the deed already, and she inherited it, she may be able to legally refuse the inheritance.
 

FractionalTraveler

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Check to see if he had any assets or other instruments such as Insurance, Trusts, Wills, etc. that may have some value to help payoff the mortgage.

That is assuming that you are still interested in keeping the Fractional Property. If not, then I would try to reach out to a certified estate planning professional for assistance.

If your mom was a joint tenant on the property she is still responsible for the mortgage. If not, then it may depend on probate in the absence of some other living testament.

FT
 

Fasttr

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Also, if I am not mistaken, this resort just voted Marriott/Ritz out in favor of being managed by the Timbers. That might add a wrinkle into what the answers are and who you need to seek them from.
 

bogey21

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Was the property in your father's name only, or was it already in her name?

If wasn't on the deed already, and she inherited it, she may be able to legally refuse the inheritance.

This is key to where she stands. You should find out immediately not only if she is on the deed but also if she signed the note.

George
 

Passepartout

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It might be time to ask some hard questions. Like how important is a good credit rating? If credit/employment, purchasing a home is not in her future, Mom might tell 'em to pound sand. They will threaten, maybe even turn her over to collection, but eventually, there will be a foreclosure, and she will be relieved of the ongoing expense. There will be phone calls. Cancel her land line and have her use a cell phone- lots of people are doing just this. Not to worry. They will not release her from her 'obligation' while the account is current. They'd rather have the payments at their usury rates than release her from the obligation- even if she offers to quit-claim it over to them. I think that after the account is 3-6 months in arrears they will be much more amenable to a deed-back.

Jim
 

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What is it you want Marriott to do for your mother? Do you expect them to just forgive the loan balance?? If your mother is on the deed and on the loan then she is now responsible for the payment just like any other debt that was incurred by both your parents. You can try to sell the unit for what you can get for it but if the balance is more than the selling price your mother will have to pay the difference. If that is not possible then just stop paying on the loan and maintenance fees and let it be foreclosed on. I am not sure why you think Marriott should assist your mother and take a financial hit because of your parent's poor financial planning.
 

JMSH

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As harsh as Kathypet has made it sound he/she is absolutely correct.
 

Ann in CA

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As harsh as Kathypet has made it sound he/she is absolutely correct.

"Harsh!" was my first reaction when I saw this post yesterday. The OP's father just died! Giving advice is great, but really, no reason to lecture the survivors when they already have enough to deal with.
 

taffy19

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Hello all,

I need some help here. My father recently past away and we're (me) trying to get all the ducks in a row for my Mom. She does not have the income to support the mortgage nor the membership fees for Ritz Calton Jupiter. We've tried to call and explain, but they will not listen; nor do they care.

Anyone have any options that we can explore in order to get out of this?
First of all, so sorry for the loss of your father.

I believe that the best thing to do is call or visit an estate attorney to ask him this question plus your mother may have other questions too.

If there is a loan on the timeshare/fractional or membership and it's higher than what it is worth, it all becomes much harder to get rid of.
 

KathyPet

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I didn't mean to be harsh and I am sorry if that is the way it came across but I do not understand what the OP wants Marriott to do for his mother. IF they both signed the promissory note and are on the deed then his mother is obligated to make the payments. I am in my late 60's and DH is older than I am but I am certainly not unaware of what my financial,responsibilities would be if something happened to him and I was alone. I find it difficult to believe in this day and age that proper financial plans were not made to ensure that this debt would not fall upon his mother's shoulders should something like this occur. Marriott is not to blame and to expect them to "do something" is unreasonable.
 

SMHarman

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KathyPet. I find it hard to believe that you think most of the population discusses inheritance and inheritance planning.
 

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I didn't mean to be harsh and I am sorry if that is the way it came across but I do not understand what the OP wants Marriott to do for his mother. IF they both signed the promissory note and are on the deed then his mother is obligated to make the payments. I am in my late 60's and DH is older than I am but I am certainly not unaware of what my financial,responsibilities would be if something happened to him and I was alone. I find it difficult to believe in this day and age that proper financial plans were not made to ensure that this debt would not fall upon his mother's shoulders should something like this occur. Marriott is not to blame and to expect them to "do something" is unreasonable.

It is because of your age that you're thinking this way. Many couples still working or younger expect they'll be around for a long time and take on debt that needs either the specific income of one spouse or, in some cases both to maintain. Since they plan to live forever no consideration is given to the what if's ? The situation described by the OP is not unusual, rather it really is something that happens frequently . When one gets a little older they begin to think they may not be immortal but even then you'd still be amazed at the number of people with or without assets, debts, and families who pass away in their 70's and
80's without so much as a will. It is terrific that you and your other half have made plans but many don't . There are also a number of surviving spouses (yes even in this day and age) who have no idea of the assets/liabilities of the family or deceased spouse.
It MAY be that the surviving spouse may be "obligated " to make the payments (there are way too many facts needed here before anyone could answer the posed question) but from the post Im getting the impression that that isn't going to happen so the OP needs to find the best way to extricate his mother out of the ownership.
OP you've been given some advice here but your best bet is to speak with lawyer (attorney if you're in the US )who handles estates . There are a number of different angles which could be pursued but you need to get some professional advice before you make a move.
 
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bogey21

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I find it difficult to believe in this day and age that proper financial plans were not made to ensure that this debt would not fall upon his mother's shoulders should something like this occur.

I learned many years ago while in the business world that those who are most successful have the ability to look into the future and see what may happen then take steps to adjust to them if they do. Some of us do this in our private lives. Unfortunately, more don't than do.

George
 
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Sorry for the late reply, as I was reviewing documents. First off, Dad kept everything to himself and no one was told of plans. Second off, not sure how, but Mom did not even know she was on the deed, let alone, responsible for the mortgage and expenses. Dad did all of the negotiations and it was on a credit card that he controlled and never shared the statements with anyone. When all this told to Mom and myself, we were flabbergasted, as it is just not manageable and that is why we're looking for options here. She lives in NJ and the property is in FL. does that make any difference? There is no life insurance. There are no retirement plans. All she has is her home. That is it. She's gone back to work in order to help pay for things, however, there is no way she's able to afford this timeshare/fractional ownership. Since the attorney is a NJ attorney, he's not familiar with FL laws and such. That is why we've hit a brick wall.
 

Luckybee

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Sorry for the late reply, as I was reviewing documents. First off, Dad kept everything to himself and no one was told of plans. Second off, not sure how, but Mom did not even know she was on the deed, let alone, responsible for the mortgage and expenses. Dad did all of the negotiations and it was on a credit card that he controlled and never shared the statements with anyone. When all this told to Mom and myself, we were flabbergasted, as it is just not manageable and that is why we're looking for options here. She lives in NJ and the property is in FL. does that make any difference? There is no life insurance. There are no retirement plans. All she has is her home. That is it. She's gone back to work in order to help pay for things, however, there is no way she's able to afford this timeshare/fractional ownership. Since the attorney is a NJ attorney, he's not familiar with FL laws and such. That is why we've hit a brick wall.

Well...if the attorney you are dealing with does not have experience with "part " of the estate it is incumbent on him/her to consult with a colleague who does. If that means consulting with someone in Florida then he/she should be doing so. It isnt up to you to run around and try to sort this out. You wouldnt do your own surgery if you had a brain tumor....and so it goes.
This is one area where you must get advice from someone who has expertise in this area. Otherwise your mother may pay much more than you want to have her paying for a long time !
There are only a couple of possibilities regarding your mother's lack of knowledge....this would need to be explored .
 

Werner Weiss

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fractionalmember,

I'm sorry for your loss and for the estate and financial issues you're now having to deal with.

I'm sure you now realize that this was a real estate purchase, just like buying a house or condo. (It's not like booking a cruise or nonrefundable airline tickets, with exceptions to the rules when the situation involves the death of the customer.)

A house or traditional condo can usually be resold at a price that's similar to the purchase price (if not much time has passed and the price was fair). However, a timeshare week (or other interval) purchased from a developer tends to sell on the resale market at a fraction of the developer price.

Also, the ongoing cost might be presented as a "membership," but it's really the share of the maintenance costs, real estate taxes, other operating costs, reserves, and management fee attributable to that week or other interval. It's a normal and mandatory cost for all owners.

A lawyer should be able to advise on options such as defaulting or bankruptcy. Although different states have different laws, the basics should be similar.

I wish you the best possible outcome.
 
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KathyPet

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When DH and I got all the closing documents on our MVCI properties we had to sign a lot of documents and since we were both named on the deed and on the financing agreements we both had to,sign in front of a notary public who took copies of our drivers license for proof of identity. The OP's mother had to have signed the documents in front of a notary. If her signature was forged I would like to know how.
 

ondeadlin

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This is a situation where I would seriously consider simply defaulting on the mortgage and membership. Before I do that, though, I would speak with the resale department or a realtor who specializes in this property and see if there is any way that I could sell it or give it to someone who would be willing to assume the outstanding mortgage.
 

Beefnot

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When DH and I got all the closing documents on our MVCI properties we had to sign a lot of documents and since we were both named on the deed and on the financing agreements we both had to,sign in front of a notary public who took copies of our drivers license for proof of identity. The OP's mother had to have signed the documents in front of a notary. If her signature was forged I would like to know how.

Maybe the mother did sign or maybe she didn't. But I do not get what pleasure you are deriving from trying to make points and lecture the way you are doing in this thread. Great for you that you have got it all together in your life. Some of us may not and would like help figuring out what to do next.
 

Mamianka

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KathyPet. I find it hard to believe that you think most of the population discusses inheritance and inheritance planning.

Within the general population, you're probably right - MOST people stick their fingers in their ears, and do NOT discuss the future - they just got past a mortgage and paying for their kids' college, etc. But one can fairly assume - up to a point - that those of us who are making LUXURY purchases - and a timeshare is luxury - would be a little bit more mindful of financial planning. There are financial shows (Suze Orman, Jean Chatzky, Jim ???) and podcasts (Dave Ramsey, etc.) all over now, and you cannot go a week of seeing news on TV or reading a paper, and not hear advice, or a reminder to GET some personal advice. Yes, I know that some people equate financial advice, insurance, etc. with thoughts of their own mortality, and yes, there are STILL some marriages in which only ONE partner takes care of ALL the money. DH and I have lost all four of our parents within the last 3 years now, and were VERY lucky that they left everything very tidy - and they were middle-class working people, none with college educations of professions, just a lifetime of punching a clock. We have only one adult son - and we are very organized, to protect our assets when we are in The Drooling Academy, and for his future - and we TALK about this to him. I say this NOT to sound preachy, but many of us only learn or *wake up* when witness someone else's predicament.

I certainly think that there would be SOME attorney who can help the OP resolve this mess - which has occurred in a time of great grief. Many people at all income levels have "not simple" legal and financial issues, and if the attorney you have is flummoxed - time to get a new guy - PERMANENTLY. If the OP's parents bought one week of a 2BR, let's say at most places this would have been in the wide neighborhood of thirty grand. Perhaps family would all want to *buy in* for a portion of this - taking rotating weeks, etc. If it requires legal advice to sort the mess - then it is going to cost MORE than whatever this place is worth if you sold it - which I why I mentioned a sit-down with family and/or friends who want a slice. TALKING is the key - since there appears so far to be the *possibility* or a mortgage, and selling will not erase that - perhaps keeping it and either RENTING it out, and making a few $$, converting it into points and renting THOSE out, or making a small partnership with family/friends might make this a better deal to KEEP, than to unload. Just my two cents - and there are folks here who know FAR more than I do about the legal stuff - this is just my pragmatic side talking.


To the OP - my condolences on the loss of your Dad - and my thoughts are with you and you Mom and families. But in this case "make haste slowly" - and do not be upset with people who offer all kinds of advice, since many of us have also lost parents, or have friends who did, who left them with ALL KINDS of things to unravel - and they are just thinking fast, or recalling what worked for THEM.

M
 

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WThe OP's mother had to have signed the documents in front of a notary. If her signature was forged I would like to know how.

OP should insist on copies of closing documents including the note in order to determine if OP's Mother actually signed. Without know this OP is flying blind.

George
 

vacationhopeful

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Sorry for your loss. Losing a spouse or parent suddenly and with limited planning, makes their passing even harder - esp while unraveling the mess.

Lots of older NJ senior residents have a house, condo and property in FL. You need to get a NJ lawyer who is MORE experience with estates who have 2nd homes (esp in FL).

Take the advice about disconnecting the landline - get a non-contract phone (Tracphone type). It is amazing how many people will disclose someone's phone number to an unknown persons - might have to change the number several times.

Forward all mail to a post office box. There is nothing good about coming home to bill collection notices, demands for payment, past due letters after working a hard day.

If her current home is too much to maintain or to pay for (RE taxes in NJ are extremely LARGE as are HIGH home insurance costs), immediately start the plan to downsize. My GF years ago had good legal advice and SOLD her residence she and her husband had shared - within a short period of time after his death to avoid having the house incumbered with his long & final hospital bills (kidney failure). And her SIL worked day & night like a dog, to clean it out, paint & fix 15+ years of clutter & dirt.
 

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Fractional Member,

There are lots of smart and wonderful people on TUGS who will offer their opinions as to your options, but none of us have the legal documents that govern your situation. You sound like you are already confused, and asking advice from well-intentioned people who do not know everything about your situation is only going to confuse you more.

You need to speak to a good attorney, and if that attorney needs assistance with the law in another state (where the property is located), then a good attorney will help you find an attorney who can handle your situation. Good legal advice isn't free, but with legal advice (and everything else), you get what you pay for.
 

bogey21

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You need to speak to a good attorney, and if that attorney needs assistance with the law in another state (where the property is located), then a good attorney will help you find an attorney who can handle your situation. Good legal advice isn't free, but with legal advice (and everything else), you get what you pay for.

You may well end up needing an attorney but before you do I again suggest that the first thing you need to do is get a copy of the signed note, deed and other closing documents. You might as well do this yourself. It will tell you a lot about where you stand. If you engage an attorney to do this for you, it will just cost you money. If you do it yourself, it will cost you next to nothing.

George
 
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