Happiness of Worldmark Owners?

I'm considering purchasing some Worldmark resale points.

When I read the TUG BBS, most people are upbeat and enthusiastic about their Worldmark membership. But when I go to wmowners.com, I'm met with dire warnings about too many Wyndham folks on the board, diluition of credits, etc.

Can anyone explain the seeming contradiction here? Is it that we always criticize our own family even though we love it, or is there real cause for concern?

World mark is a great system. I had my first world mark Stay this summer with my points and loved my stay. It's just that seems like the system was more generous than it is now with respect to what was provided in the kitchens and other things, but having stayed on hgvc, Marriott and dvc properties I would say world mark is up there with what you get in your units and with their customer service and online reservation system. I'm happy.

It is also one of the few systems that trade in both interval international and RCI. And you can transfer one time use credits into your account an unlimited amount of times from other owners or via brokers. So you don't need a large account. I like that feature because it allows me to go on long vacations when times are good but not have the huge financial obligation for maintenance fees when times are not so good.

No bank and borrow dates to remember just that your credits expire 2 years.

Here's another satisfied WorldMark owner. Bought in 2001 and have had many nice vacations at 25 or more of their resorts. wmowners is the we hate Wyndham the developer crowd. When they talk about credit dilution they are referring to the fact that the newer WorldMark resorts require more credits for a given unit size than the old ones do. For example, 10,000 credits for a 2 bedroom unit at Birch Bay which came into the system in 1995, 12,000 credits for a 2 bedroom in Phoenix, a new addition in 2012.

The Board of Directors is a 5 member board. Currently there are 3 members who are current or past employees of Wyndham. Wyndham has the right to vote the unsold credits in the system and not surprisingly they vote for their people. They paid in the neighborhood of $900 million when they purchased Trendwest, the original developer. Of course they are going to keep things in their control as much as possible.

I have only owned WM for 10 months and I am a very happy owner. I also own Starwood and Marriott weeks and if I have to redo, I would probably reduce both my Starwood and Marriott ownership (fewer weeks in both) and increase my WM account. My account is only 10,000 credits and I have used credits and cash for several bookings. I am going to Vancouver and Victoria next month and Depoe Bay, OR next summer. While I have only stayed at Windsor twice and a Vegas resort once, I was not let down by their standard and I have also been very happy with their customer service. Many of their resorts at "cooler locations" have no air-conditioning which I am a little worried about, i.e., the ones that we are going to next month and next year, but I am not daunted because our experience so far has been good.

I am a new, and so far very satisfied, Worldmark owner. I did a lot of research on the system, mostly because I wanted access to Steamboat Springs for ski holiday weeks if I could not book it on the Wyndham side. I saw Fred's (cotraveller) website, which is a great objective source of information and tips/tricks to become a "semi-pro" owner before even buying. Perusing his site, I learned just how flexible WM can be:

- Check-in on any day
- Liberal stay lengths (even only 1 day at a time if booked inside 10 months or in a grouped reservation)
- GROUPED reservations! Next year I have a trip to Yellowstone NP planned, in which I stay 1-2 nights each in Reno and Wolf Creek (Utah) on my way to WM West Yellowstone for 5 days (Fred even shows how you can save on housekeeping fees!).
- ability to rent extra credits from other owners
- etc., etc.!!!

About a year ago, I, too, got your initial impression of WMOwners.com as a very political forum; one in which certain topics can create quite a bit of angst. Usually these revolve around renting, which is sometimes lumped in with "mega-renting," and complaints against Wyndham management (to varying degrees). IMHO, some of these complaints (really speculations) can be attributed to the standard human response to change or the unknown. Other complaints center on legitimate issues, but ones that are not unique to Worlmark (and are similar to complaints at Marriott, DRI, Disney, etc.).

WMO, however, can be very helpful as well. It does have plenty of helpful owners who are more than willing to give you tips and tricks and resort-specific information.

As a new owner, I would not pay much attention to "sky-is-falling" type threads on WMO. It is a passionate community, and an active ownership, which is probably more of a good thing than bad. Wyndham management has shown itself more than willing to adjust its policies to ensure good and fair product, possibly because WMO is "keeping an eye out" so to speak.

The biggest example of this was the recent (late 2013) clarification on what is allowed when making Group Reservations. Because the system is SO flexible and the maintenance fees so low, some commercial entities had set up shop and would book a unit for the entire summer as a single reservation at high-demand resorts. They would then parcel out these single reservations into smaller week-long reservations for a tidy profit. This was obviously an abuse of the system, and Wyndham updated the guidelines to severely restrict such behavior. I think Wyndham did a decent job of preserving Worldmark's famous flexibility while addressing this issue.

So come on in! The water's warm! :whoopie:

Worldmark is a terrific system. It has a good network of properties that have a consistent theme: they are clean, functional, basic and located in good places, even if not the prime location (example: Tahoe is a good location, but it's not a ski-in/ski-out). They are not destination resorts like some of the Hiltons/Marriotts/Starwoods, but serve as a great base camp for your trip.

As PearlCity indicated, it is a great feature to be able to transfer credits between owners. I used to own 25K credits, but sold 15K credits (to buy an HGVC) when I realized how easy it was to rent credits in when I needed them. This allows me to scale up or down each year -- which is great when I do a family reunion and need 6 rooms, or when I don't travel within Worldmark and have the option to rent them out.

As with any timeshare, it requires some commitment on your part to understand the reservation system so you know how to get the reservations you want when you want them. Some owners are unhappy that their target property is full, but they need to know what to do 13 months out.

I hope that helps -- please ask any clarifying questions.

Thank you!

Greg

Thanks so much to all the members who replied. It helps me put what I saw on wmowners.com in perspective.

I am definitely going to jump into the water and will start shopping for deals now!

Betty

Southpaw said:

Thanks so much to all the members who replied. It helps me put what I saw on wmowners.com in perspective.

I am definitely going to jump into the water and will start shopping for deals now!

Betty

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While eBay can be a source of listings, you might want to check out the Memberships for Sale forum on WMO. these are mostly owner-to-owner sales. There are also some great brokers that will occasionally post on WMO (and less often on TUG). I bought my membership through Bill Stephan of Smartshare.com. I cannot recommend him or his company enough.

Good luck and happy hunting!

WmOwners is a community with a lot of old owners (I mean they have owned Worldmark for a long time) Many of them remember when it was a smaller club with a different developer and manager. They long for the good old days and blame Wyndham when anything doesnt go their way

Also you might be interested to know,that I have a pretty good reputation here, knowledgeable and helpful and willing to learn and happy to share. But not so good on wmowners.

I dont know whether things were better then or not, what I do know is that its pretty good now and Im happy to be an owner, I also dont know whether I deserve a good reputation or not...Its just interesting to see the diference

I am a happy WM owner. I like the resort locations and the fact that I can book just one night if I want to. I have a very small contract and use the cash specials or rent in credits from other owners if needed. The system is much more flexible than Hilton or Shell (my other points systems) and the costs to own and use are much less. Overall, I would describe it as superior to my other points programs.

wmowners.com has a lot of very good information. Just like you, when I joined, I thought everyone there hated WM and/or Wyndham. I have been around long enough to see that they don't hate WM, they just want what the originally bought and the changes over the years have changed that very much. If you buy today, you get what you bought and you will like it.

@ Chris - Thanks for the advice. I will check WMO for sales.

@ Ron - I've been lurking for a few weeks, so I know you are experienced and can give advice.

Betty

presley said:

I have a very small contract and use the cash specials or rent in credits from other owners if needed.

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This is good to know, presley because I will probably start out a bit small and then see how it goes.

Betty

presley said:

I am a happy WM owner. I like the resort locations and the fact that I can book just one night if I want to. I have a very small contract and use the cash specials or rent in credits from other owners if needed. The system is much more flexible than Hilton or Shell (my other points systems) and the costs to own and use are much less. Overall, I would describe it as superior to my other points programs.

wmowners.com has a lot of very good information. Just like you, when I joined, I thought everyone there hated WM and/or Wyndham. I have been around long enough to see that they don't hate WM, they just want what the originally bought and the changes over the years have changed that very much. If you buy today, you get what you bought and you will like it.

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That's how I feel. I know longtime owners are upset about no tea kettles at some resorts (when I went to Solvang and marina dunes they were still there) and potentially stuff like BBQ grills bring gone (I know there are bigger gripes than this) but being a DVC and Marriott owner and having rented HGVC my family was like Wow! BBQ grills on our lanai? Tea pots?! The other big name timeshares already don't have these. I can say the appliances were better quality than the DVC at the Grand California and Marriott ko olina. Not high end but now super low end either. I like the locations and flexibility.

PearlCity said:

I know longtime owners are upset about no tea kettles at some resorts (when I went to Solvang and marina dunes they were still there) and potentially stuff like BBQ grills bring gone

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My brother rented at Solvang in June and I stayed at a hotel nearby. I remember everyone ooohing and aaahing over the grill, though we didn't use it. I don't know if there was a tea kettle or not....

Betty

WMowners or WMoaners

For the most part WMowners is a good learning area. I have been a WM owner for 17 years (since 1997) and am happy with my ownership As Mr. Praise said there are some that want things as they were back in the good old days. There are some that complain and complain just about anything. About a year or so ago Worldmark changed salt and pepper shakers to small disposable ones out of sanitation issues, that thread went on for about 20 pages or so. After awhile you will notice the ones that make it WMoaners and the ones that make it WMowners. Also do not say anything about how the site is run or they will come down on you like stink on poop.

I would say in general WMowners is a great site to learn. The folks are helpful and knowledgeable about the things to do around the resorts. I just avoid the arguements. You kind of figure out which threads have that and which don't and learn to argue. Some people try to argue even if that isn't the intent of the OP. I had that happen to me. I learn just to not argue back and eventually it dies.

Wmowners.com (WMO) is by owners, for owners. It has 4 areas of mission:
1. Owner Advocacy
2. Owner Education
3. Owner Community
4. Owner Communication

Its members are Worldmark enthusiasts - owners who are very happy with Worldmark the Club - so happy that they are willing to volunteer their time for the 4 missions, to make the Club better, to let Wyndham know that they are being watched. As a result Wyndham has done things for WM (e.g. modify a guideline that it just recently implemented) that it does not do for Club Wyndham/Wyndham Vacation Resorts, its other major timeshare brand. It also does not dare do to WM some things that it has done to WVR, e.g. prohibit the transfer of points amongst owners, and institute many different fees. Because it knows it is being watched by a group of owners who are dedicated, and holds a good % of owner votes in the annual election.

Checks and balances are good, and one of the prime values in the United States.

When new WM owners read only part of the dialogue on WMO, you may get the wrong impression that WMO members are not happy with WM. Quite the contrary, they are super happy, so happy that they are willing to devote personal time to make WM stay good, and become better. They have benefited from the education in the WMO community, and are paying it forward to make WM better. You need to read the whole picture, instead of reading the partial picture, not unlike learning how to use WM - you would miss so much if you learn just part of what is available in the WM system. That would be so easy to do if you don't read WMO.

One owner read WMO to find things wrong with WM, but ended up finding all things that are right, and buying into the system. He is now a super educator on WMO.

All Developer/managers exist to make profit. Wyndham is no different than Marriott, Starwood, etc. But Worldmark the Club is a non-profit mutual benefit organization set up to be differentiated from Wyndham. Wmowners is a baby born from the WM Club site, set up to ensure that WM stays true to its core, and does not get lost in the Wyndham profiteering.

New WMO members learn from the community and pay it forward. They learn from the masters, and communicate amongst experts, and therefore WMO is the post-graduate or even post-secondary institute for optimizing the value of WM. Communication is the key, and forum is the structure. Some may say there is too much argument, but that is a natural byproduct of the forum structure, and the explicit protection of different viewpoints, something that was (is) not provided for on the official Club forum on the Club web site.

Knowledgeable owners who know the ins and outs of WM may not need WMO. New WM owners can live outside of WMO and already be much happier than owners of other timeshares. But owners who skip the ongoing learning process from the WMO conversation do so at their own peril, no matter how long they have been an owner.

Is WMO perfect? Nobody can be perfect, especially not an all-volunteer organization that is on a shoe-string budget, all based on donations, charging no membership fee, and accepting no advertising fee.

JMHO. I am not on the Board of WMO, nor an officer. Just a WM owner who has been around for a long time, benefited from the WMO education, and am glad to be part of the WMO community.

LLW - you forgot number 5. WorldMark politics. The question remains, will wmowners vote that good % of votes they control for the good of the club or for the good of wmowners? Those two points of view are not necessarily always in alignment.

cotraveller said:

LLW - you forgot number 5. WorldMark politics. The question remains, will wmowners vote that good % of votes they control for the good of the club or for the good of wmowners? Those two points of view are not necessarily always in alignment.

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Don't know what you meant, but you don't need my permission to post your opinion. :rofl:

I meant that when there is an issue up for vote that would benefit the club will wmowners support it? Even if it might not be in line with the common wmowners mantra.

Case in point, Worldmark is a $250 million annual operation with assets pushing $1 billion, yet has only a 5 member board of directors. There was a bylaw amendment on the ballot several years back to increase the board size to 7. wmowners controlled enough proxies to swing the vote on the amendment one way or the other. They took a hardheaded approach and demanded that in exchange for their support that they be guaranteed that the two new positions not be filled by Wyndham appointments. When their demands were not met they voted the amendment down. It was their way or the highway. Demand, not negotiate. So today we are still left with a 5 person board.

That short sighted approach probably also cost them their best chance to get "their candidate" on the board. Due to the artifact of cumulative voting they would have had 4 votes to 1 in the next election and probably their candidate would have won.

All of this of course is just IMHBCO, with no permission on your or wmowners part required.

cotraveller said:

All of this of course is just IMHBCO, with no permission on your or wmowners part required.

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And no agreement required on any of your points. I just won't argue back.

Only because WMO/WMOwners is long on rhetoric, but short on solutions.

Just like a timeshare presentation, they accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative. Fred's example is only one case in point. Another is their support of the settlement in the class action lawsuit regarding the developers influence/control of the Worldmark board.

Fred and Eric say it much better than I can, but to expand on their points.

WMOwners works to elect "independent" board members. But when asked, what would you have the board do, different than whats been done in the past; They have no answer. And if you ask what would you have them do in the future...There is no answer to that either.

They call for open bidding on the management contract to replace Wyndham, but when pressed, they say that Wyndham has been a good manager. That makes no sense to me

If they dont get their way, these folks (WMowners) are dangerious
Most recently one of the members of the WMowners board advocated physical violence to enforce the rules as he sees it. . I assume the the rest of WMowners feels the same way as no one spoke to distance themselves from him.

ronparise said:

If they dont get their way, these folks (WMowners) are dangerious
Most recently one of the members of the WMowners board advocated physical violence to enforce the rules as he sees it. . I assume the rest of WMowners feels the same way as no one spoke to distance themselves from him.

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If your referring to the two psychos advocating hurting dogs, I will be more than happy to go back and express, my disgust, I chose not to engage to hopefully allow the moderators time to remove rather than expand the vile posted.

The thread is locked so I cannot comment, I did request it be removed, since I found it more vile than anything cuss word or personal attack

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The management company manipulates the proxy process to make sure that the majority of the BOD has strong ties to Wyndham corporate. The changes implemented benefit the Management Company first and the owners second. Let the owners votes proportionately determine the BOD.

With the number of owners that still assign proxies, the "independents" could never get more than two seats, right now they are allowed none, appointed puppets do not count.


I appreciate my ownership, but new resorts shouldn't cost 60 % more in points and on going maintenance fees than exiting resorts. I agree the development costs have risen, Wyndham as the developer should have raised the price per point to cover the current costs, but left the points the same by unit size as Trendwest did for the first 50+ properties, but that would have made the product too expensive to sell the entry level product.

Since they control the development and management - they do what maximizes profit for Wyndham, not usage for the owners, their employers

cotraveller said:

..........wmowners controlled enough proxies to swing the vote on the amendment one way or the other. They took a hardheaded approach and demanded..........When their demands were not met they voted the amendment down. It was their way or the highway. Demand, not negotiate..........

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ecwinch said:

.............Another is their support of the settlement in the class action lawsuit regarding the developers influence/control of the Worldmark board.

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Those two comments by two who were not part of the immediate working group (neither was I - so I don't criticize) interestingly contradict each other.

Is the problem being too hardheaded and not supportive enough, or too supportive? Or neither?

I think we are dangerously bordering on being off topic - this probably wasn't what the OP was asking about.