[ 2016 ] buyback & GUSA Capital (Raintree Vacation Club)

NinaC · Mar 11, 2016

Hello,

I just found and joined the Forum. Thank you for all the great information. I searched the posts for GUSA Capital and did not find any.

Curious what anyone knows about timeshare buyback from Raintree Vacation Club? Or GUSA Capital (as part of presentation at the timeshare)?

Last month I was at my timeshare -- Raintree Vacation Club (RVC), Club Regina Los Cabos. While there, the RVC representative presented me with information about a buyback of my timeshare for the total (purchase price + maintenance fees paid to-date). The one-time fee for this buyback is 8.9% of the total. The buyback would occur 10 years after the one-page agreement was signed.

At the time, I thought the buyback was with RVC so I signed a one page agreement on February 7. When I got an email on Feb 26 welcoming me to the buyback program and it was from GUSA Capital (a Mexico address), I re-looked at the one-page agreement and realized that I was mistaken. The agreement is with GUSA Capital. I would be responsible for paying the 8.9% within the following 30 days from the signature date to GUSA Capital. I have not paid the one-time fee. And after reading through other posts about scams, I am not going to pay them. Let me know if you have any other thoughts on this.

NinaC

DeniseM · Mar 11, 2016

8.9% of the total = ?

Payback = ?

Sounds like a total scam….

SkyBlueWaters · Mar 11, 2016

I don't know how binding an agreement is overseas with respect to timeshare transactions or if there is a rescission clause, but could you look at your contract to see any wording on cancellation/rescission. I hope you didn't give them your cc#.

DeniseM · Mar 11, 2016

The OP didn't pay and the contract expired:

At the time, I thought the buyback was with RVC so I signed a one page agreement on February 7. When I got an email on Feb 26 welcoming me to the buyback program and it was from GUSA Capital (a Mexico address), I re-looked at the one-page agreement and realized that I was mistaken. The agreement is with GUSA Capital. I would be responsible for paying the 8.9% within the following 30 days from the signature date to GUSA Capital. I have not paid the one-time fee.

Bill4728 · Mar 12, 2016

So they want you to pay them now 9% of the total they "MAY" pay you in ten years

Who in the world would believe that that is likely?? NOT ME!!

NinaC · Mar 12, 2016

Thank you for the feedback. Too good to be true is probably a scam. NinaC

DeniseM said:
8.9% of the total = ?

Payback = ?

Sounds like a total scam….

NinaC · Mar 12, 2016

I was not thinking during the presentation. And very happy I did not pay them at the presentation so I had time to think straight!

Bill4728 said:
So they want you to pay them now 9% of the total they "MAY" pay you in ten years

Who in the world would believe that that is likely?? NOT ME!!

T_R_Oglodyte · Mar 12, 2016

I'm not convinced it's an outright scam. But I do think there is something more involved than what is on the table.

We've seen this twice now - first last year when we were a Costa Sur in Puerto Vallarta. That was a Club Tesoro offering. Then Raintree had it this year when we were in Marina Vallarta.

It's presented as a buyback, but they kept calling it "insurance". Never figured out why, but it was clearly presented as a buyback. In both cases I understood clearly that it was a third party deal; not being offered by either Tesoro or Raintree.

I actually gave it serious consideration when we were in Puerto Vallarta. The payout amount was based on the original sales price for our Platinum membership (not the price we paid when we bought it resale); then we would have had to buy some added points to get the GUSA contract. So the buyout would have been for significantly more than we would have invested.

The numbers were sufficiently intriguing that I actually did a NPV on the cash flow for the ten year period to cash out. I calculated that if what they were saying was true it would actually come out to about a 10% rate of return, pre-tax rate of return.

That wasn't attractive enough for me to proceed. Being self-employed, marginal federal income tax rate is about 40%, so until I'm fully stuffing my SEP IRA, that doesn't work for me.

It would have been interesting to actually get the paperwork to investigate the details. The thing that I would have wanted to peel away is how they could possibly payback the amount they were talking about with what the premium is.

NinaC · Mar 13, 2016

I don't recall the word "insurance" being used during my presentation. Appreciate that view on this. I need to study up on how you figured out the rate of return.

Once I had 30 days to think about it, I have no assurance that they would be able to pay me the amount when the 10 years expired. And like you, I wondered how would they be able to pay me. That's probably the biggest reason I decided not to pay the 8.9%.

T_R_Oglodyte said:
I'm not convinced it's an outright scam. But I do think there is something more involved than what is on the table.

We've seen this twice now - first last year when we were a Costa Sur in Puerto Vallarta. That was a Club Tesoro offering. Then Raintree had it this year when we were in Marina Vallarta.

It's presented as a buyback, but they kept calling it "insurance". Never figured out why, but it was clearly presented as a buyback. In both cases I understood clearly that it was a third party deal; not being offered by either Tesoro or Raintree.

I actually gave it serious consideration when we were in Puerto Vallarta. The payout amount was based on the original sales price for our Platinum membership (not the price we paid when we bought it resale); then we would have had to buy some added points to get the GUSA contract. So the buyout would have been for significantly more than we would have invested.

The numbers were sufficiently intriguing that I actually did a NPV on the cash flow for the ten year period to cash out. I calculated that if what they were saying was true it would actually come out to about a 10% rate of return, pre-tax rate of return.

That wasn't attractive enough for me to proceed. Being self-employed, marginal federal income tax rate is about 40%, so until I'm fully stuffing my SEP IRA, that doesn't work for me.

It would have been interesting to actually get the paperwork to investigate the details. The thing that I would have wanted to peel away is how they could possibly payback the amount they were talking about with what the premium is.

T_R_Oglodyte · Mar 13, 2016

NinaC said:
I need to study up on how you figured out the rate of return.

I set up spreadsheet years 0 through ten in rows, then each year I entered how much I would pay out, and in year 10 how much I would get back from GUSA. We have five years left in our contract, so I assumed we would use the contract every other year for five years, and in the other years we would do a rental at the owner rates for one week. I included maintenance fees in the years we would use, and annual club dues in the off years. Of course there was also the upfront payments due now (Year 0) for the added points and for the GUSA contract. I assumed an inflation rate for all costs; I think I pegged that at 4%. Then I used the IRR function to calculate the rate of return.

NinaC · Mar 14, 2016

Thank you for the explanation. I will figure the IRR out of curiousity since I still am not sure how GUSA would pay me at the end of 10 years. The total (to be paid back at the end of 10 year) given to me, was original purchase price + maintenance fees paid past and future + the upgrade purchase from Platinum to Emerald). I have 13 years left on my contract.

T_R_Oglodyte said:
I set up spreadsheet years 0 through ten in rows, then each year I entered how much I would pay out, and in year 10 how much I would get back from GUSA. We have five years left in our contract, so I assumed we would use the contract every other year for five years, and in the other years we would do a rental at the owner rates for one week. I included maintenance fees in the years we would use, and annual club dues in the off years. Of course there was also the upfront payments due now (Year 0) for the added points and for the GUSA contract. I assumed an inflation rate for all costs; I think I pegged that at 4%. Then I used the IRR function to calculate the rate of return.

NinaC · Mar 15, 2016

The contract did not have any cancellation clause. I don't want any problems with GUSA later down the line from not paying the fee.

Do you or anyone on this forum think I need to email or mail them to give them written notice that I am not paying even though the 30 days after signing has passed? They appear to be a Mexican company. And I am emailing Profeco to see what they say.

DeniseM said:
The OP didn't pay and the contract expired:

pepe13 · May 10, 2016

Gusa Capital buyback program

It confuses me! Clearly, it looks too good to be true, but I have no idea whether it is or not. In 10 years, I will only have a few years left on my TS. And they'll buy it back for everything I have in it? Why? What would they do with it???

I've asked them for financials, rating, something. I got a memo. Not worth the page it's written on to me!

I've had a conversation with a guy there. Broken English. I've not gotten satisfaction. I wish I would. I'd love this program if I could figure out why they should do it. And how they'll be in business in 10 years to buy it back. And what guarantee will I have that they will?

Not sure what I'm looking for. I suppose I'm looking for it to make sense in my mind. And I'm past my 30 day clock. I've not seen a charge on my CC account. I'll have to look again.

nanaboat · Sep 19, 2016

Buyback at Raintree

My buyback was $4,800.00 for a return, in 10 years, $55,000.00. I did it, take my chances.

TUGBrian · Sep 19, 2016

there is nothing about this that sounds even remotely legitimate...

T_R_Oglodyte · Sep 20, 2016

TUGBrian said:
there is nothing about this that sounds even remotely legitimate...

We've been in two presentations where the GUSA option was presented, both at resorts in Puerto Vallarta. The first was at Costa Sur; the second at Club Regina/Raintree. At Costa Sur we actually purchased and rescinded, so I did get a copy of all of the documentation provided to purchasers. The offer gave every appearance of being legitimate; I reviewed the documents and there were no patent holes I could punch in it.

The Costa Sur rescission was easy; when we left the presentation I was 90% certain we would be rescinding, but I wanted more time to look things over. When I had a chance to put the information together it was clear that it didn't make any economic sense. The Raintree wasn't as clear-cut. Since we purchased a platinum resale, but they buyback would be based on the original buyers purchase price, we would be getting back more than we had paid, if the deal were valid.

At that point, when I was looking into it, there were three key issues for me, each of which was a deal-killer.

The whole deal needed to generate a rate of return that was high enough to justify spending money.
I needed to get a better handle on exactly what the instrument was that I would be buying. The sales people kept referring to it as essentially a buyback, but the documents from GUSA talked about it as "insurance". I never got an answer to my satisfaction from the sales person at Raintree about that difference. I ultimately concluded that he couldn't tell me because he didn't know himself. He was just presenting it to me as it had been taught to him.
I needed to get comfortable with how they were going to be able to deploy the money I would be paying to them to get a rate of return sufficient to make the payback they were supposedly going to make. And in my mind, that issue was linked to the "insurance" vs. "payback" concern in my item 2. I could see making that kind of guarantee as part of an insurance policy, where payback isn't guaranteed. So I had the sense that i was being sold a pig in a poke.

Of those three, the easiest to address was the rate of return issue. When it didn't pass that test, I didn't have to deal with items 2 and 3.

But items 2 and 3 are certainly valid. GUSA appears to a viable, valid enterprise. My strongest suspicion is that the what is being sold is actually some type of insurance policy, for which reimbursement occurs only after a triggering event. In my brief review, I didn't see anything that indicated what the triggering event might be.

theo · Sep 20, 2016

I can't even fathom and so won't pass judgement on this odd "buyback offer", but what would concern me is the simple fact that a U.S. "gringo" would later have no legal recourse or leverage whatsoever to enforce a private, third party, Mexican contract executed years earlier. PROFECO would presumably be neither applicable nor useful in any such private contract matter, so to whom exactly could / would one be able to turn later if / when the third party Mexican "players" involved today are nowhere to be found (with or without a payout check for you) years from now? :shrug:

I for one would certainly not want to be in the position of having to attempt to enforce a contract executed in Mexico --- years later and long after having ponied up cash and having signed a "contract". I suspect that trying to enforce that (...ahem) "buyback contract" would ultimately be as successful as trying to nail Jello to a wall.

wflake123 · Jul 10, 2017

T_R_Oglodyte said:
I'm not convinced it's an outright scam. But I do think there is something more involved than what is on the table.

We've seen this twice now - first last year when we were a Costa Sur in Puerto Vallarta. That was a Club Tesoro offering. Then Raintree had it this year when we were in Marina Vallarta.

It's presented as a buyback, but they kept calling it "insurance". Never figured out why, but it was clearly presented as a buyback. In both cases I understood clearly that it was a third party deal; not being offered by either Tesoro or Raintree.

I actually gave it serious consideration when we were in Puerto Vallarta. The payout amount was based on the original sales price for our Platinum membership (not the price we paid when we bought it resale); then we would have had to buy some added points to get the GUSA contract. So the buyout would have been for significantly more than we would have invested.

The numbers were sufficiently intriguing that I actually did a NPV on the cash flow for the ten year period to cash out. I calculated that if what they were saying was true it would actually come out to about a 10% rate of return, pre-tax rate of return.

That wasn't attractive enough for me to proceed. Being self-employed, marginal federal income tax rate is about 40%, so until I'm fully stuffing my SEP IRA, that doesn't work for me.

It would have been interesting to actually get the paperwork to investigate the details. The thing that I would have wanted to peel away is how they could possibly payback the amount they were talking about with what the premium is.

I was offered this for the first time during an upgrade for a new level. I thought it also sounded too good, but worth the risk of $3K to possibly get my money back in 10 years. Reading through the short contract I think the main catch is you only have 90 days to notify them "in writing" of your intent to sell it back. They don't notify you that you are at your 10 year date, and probably not easy to get the address. I assure you I have already set reminders for 10 years from now, and will make sure to send international trackable mail when the time comes.

As far as how they afford it, my understanding that Mexico has passed some new rules recently trying to clean up their TimeShare industry that only allow them to sell a unit (even if it is points) only a specific number of times (just like in the US). Many clubs are adding units, but clubs will want to buy back older (cheaper) memberships in the future so they can sell them again at a higher price. I assume GUSA will be reselling what they buy back back to the club or others. Probably possible to sell myself in 10 years for a high return but would rather not mess with it.

theo · Jul 10, 2017

wflake123 said:
... my understanding that Mexico has passed some new rules recently trying to clean up their TimeShare industry that only allow them to sell a unit (even if it is points) only a specific number of times (just like in the US). Many clubs are adding units, but clubs will want to buy back older (cheaper) memberships in the future so they can sell them again at a higher price. I assume GUSA will be reselling what they buy back back to the club or others. Probably possible to sell myself in 10 years for a high return but would rather not mess with it.

What is the cited source and / or factual basis on which you base this particular (blue highlighted above) "understanding"? :ponder:

I'm not buying any of it, personally (including any possibility of selling in 10 years at a "high return"; you would certainly be among the first to ever do so).

The word "shill" enters my mind regarding your GUSA "endorsement" in your first post on your first day of TUG registration, but maybe I'm just a cynic...

wflake123 · Jul 10, 2017

theo said:
What is the cited source and / or factual basis on which you base this particular (blue highlighted above) "understanding"?

I'm not buying any of it, personally (including any possibility of selling in 10 years at a "high return"; you would certainly be among the first to ever do so).

The word "shill" enters my mind regarding your GUSA "endorsement" in your first post on your first day of TUG registration, but maybe I'm just a cynic...

wow....that was harsh!!!!....yes first time posted, so first time I saw the need to register, I had just googled GUSA and this thread came up....but feel free to call me a "shill"...and if you read my statement I NEVER endorsed, I just said in my (obviously worthless ) opinion, I thought the risk was worth the reward...thats ALL.......

theo · Jul 10, 2017

Don't get your panties all in a bunch and / or get all "hurt". No one "called" you anything. I expressed my personal doubts, for which I offer no apology.
Your opinion is not "worthless", I just don't happen to agree with it and said so in a civil manner. With no fuzzy "PC", I expressed my own personal opinion.
These are, after all, discussion forums.

Fwiw, when a new registrant appears out of a clear blue sky to express "enthusiasm" for an obscure and / or heretofore completely unknown and unproven entity or model, some people (including me) question their credibility and / or agenda. Your opinion and position is always welcome and yours to harbor and to express (as is mine, btw); just color me dubious about this "GUSA maybe buy back" --- 10 years from now, after (more) upfront cash collected today. :ponder:

I remain very curious (outright dubious, actually) about any factual basis for your claimed "understanding" of Mexico allegedly "trying to clean up its' timeshare industry" with "new rules". That is certainly news to me and I'd welcome and appreciate further details --- but your "understanding" is apparently something that you do not choose to (or simply cannot) support with any actual facts, cites or other specific references of substance. :shrug:

wflake123 · Jul 10, 2017

theo said:
Don't get your panties all in a bunch and / or get all "hurt". No one "called" you anything. I expressed a personal viewpoint, for which I offer no apology.
Your opinion is not "worthless", I just don't happen to agree with it and said so in a civil manner. No fuzzy "PC", just my expression of a personal opinion.

Fyi, over the years a pattern has evolved on these forums when a brand new registrant appears out of a clear blue sky to expresses "interest or enthusiasm" for a heretofore relatively unknown entity. Your opinion and position is certainly yours to harbor and express; just color me dubious.

My panties are just fine, thank you...It was your panties I thought bunched because I didn't automatically agree with your expertise....reading through your other posts seems to be a pattern.

T_R_Oglodyte · Jul 10, 2017

wflake123 said:
As far as how they afford it, my understanding that Mexico has passed some new rules recently trying to clean up their TimeShare industry that only allow them to sell a unit (even if it is points) only a specific number of times (just like in the US). Many clubs are adding units, but clubs will want to buy back older (cheaper) memberships in the future so they can sell them again at a higher price. I assume GUSA will be reselling what they buy back back to the club or others. Probably possible to sell myself in 10 years for a high return but would rather not mess with it.

That sounds to me like classic timeshare sales person mendacity.

The bottom line to me is that there isn't any legitimate place where they can park the money they receive for ten years, and receive a guaranteed rate of return such that after ten years the they will have earned enough to meet the payout requirement. Frankly, that sounds to me like a Ponzi scheme.

T-Dot-Traveller · Jul 10, 2017

AND - it takes 10 years to find out if it is a Ponzi

Instead - you might as well go buy Vidanta and watch them build the Cirque Theme Park in Nuevo . It will be there in 10 years

TUGBrian · Jul 10, 2017

perhaps its just a misunderstanding with your original post where you mention you DID find 3k worth of value...and instead you meant to say did NOT find the value?

[ 2016 ] buyback & GUSA Capital (Raintree Vacation Club)

NinaC

DeniseM

SkyBlueWaters

DeniseM

Bill4728

NinaC

NinaC

T_R_Oglodyte

NinaC

T_R_Oglodyte

NinaC

NinaC

pepe13

nanaboat

TUGBrian

T_R_Oglodyte

theo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

wflake123

theo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

wflake123

theo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

wflake123

T_R_Oglodyte

T-Dot-Traveller

TUGBrian