Fradulent Chargeback - Death in the family

Also, wondering if you and the renters had attempted to reach a compromise on a partial refund or if it was always an all or nothing type of discussion.

When someone calls to cancel the day before check in, it pretty much is an all or nothing situation.


If the OP loses the case would it set a precedent, for non refundable hotel reservations and reservations through services like priceline and hotwire that to get a refund you would just need to dispute with the CC?

tschwa2 said:

When someone calls to cancel the day before check in, it pretty much is an all or nothing situation.


If the OP loses the case would it set a precedent, for non refundable hotel reservations and reservations through services like priceline and hotwire that to get a refund you would just need to dispute with the CC?

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Why would it be all or nothing? Once they filed with the dispute with the CC company, there was plenty of time to try and reach a comprise resolution rather than roll the dice with the CC company decision.

Small claims court decisions do not set precedent. Also, non-refundable hotel reservations require you to sign electronically that you are aware of the reservation is non-refundable and agree to the terms. I am sure their agreements have been tested and are ironclad. From what I have read here, there was no such agreement.

grupp said:

From what I have read here, there was no such agreement.

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Where did you come up with that conclusion? From the OP's first post:

Invoices for both the deposit as well the final payment clearly listed all details and dates and in term and conditions "all sales are final, No refunds and No cancellations, dates are firm"

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Seems like an agreement to me if that was on both the deposit and final statement. Not sure how anyone would think otherwise.

Kurt

grupp said:

Why would it be all or nothing? Once they filed with the dispute with the CC company, there was plenty of time to try and reach a comprise resolution rather than roll the dice with the CC company decision.

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By the time Paypal notifies the owner - the credit card has already taken the money back. So there is no motivation for the renter to negotiate.

grupp said:

Also, non-refundable hotel reservations require you to sign electronically that you are aware of the reservation is non-refundable and agree to the terms. I am sure their agreements have been tested and are ironclad.

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I'm not a lawyer, but I've seen a fair share of contracts.
Nothing is EVER ironclad.
This is the case both when a contract is reviewed by a team of layers on both the buyer's and the seller's end, and when the contract is only reviewed by a lawyer on either of the seller's or buyer's side.

In the case of a contract reviewed by lawyers on both ends, both lawyers will always leave ample room to litigate if necessary.

In the case of a contract reviewed by only one side, the side without a lawyer usually has the least to lose by going to court. Therefore, it behooves the side with a lawyer (for example, the seller, expedia) to come to an agreement with the side without a lawyer (for example, the buyer, avg joe).

Unfortunately, in this case, the OP seems to have nothing going for them. No signed contract, no willingness from the buyer to make amends, nothing. The OP can always take the person involved to court, but there are expenses involved, and a definite lack of certainty about the outcome. There isnt even certainty about where the OP should file to go to court and try to enforce the contract.

That is an unfortunate situation, and if I were the OP, I'd just take experience this as an expensive lesson that without a signed contract, the OP is exposing themselves to this kind of situation.

PigsDad said:

Where did you come up with that conclusion? From the OP's first post:



Seems like an agreement to me if that was on both the deposit and final statement. Not sure how anyone would think otherwise.

Kurt

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That is wording on an invoice not a signed areement. Big diffenence between the two.

DeniseM said:

By the time Paypal notifies the owner - the credit card has already taken the money back. So there is no motivation for the renter to negotiate.

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Yes, but they knew they dispute had been filed and were given the oppportunity to submit their information, which would allow time to try and work something out. Just curious if they tried to do this or not.

Agree that once the desision is made it is too late.

grupp said:

Yes, but they knew they dispute had been filed and were given the oppportunity to submit their information, which would allow time to try and work something out. Just curious if they tried to do this or not.

Agree that once the desision is made it is too late.

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By the time Paypal notifies you - the CC has already withdrawn the $$$.

There is no time - it's a done deal. There is no motivation for the renter to negotiate.

dominidude said:

That is an unfortunate situation, and if I were the OP, I'd just learn that without a signed contract, the OP is really exposing themselves to this kind of situation.

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I would also add know the risks of using PayPal as a form of payment. They will do nothing to protect you in the case of a CC dispute, so you have an uphill battle. Some are willing to accept this risk and others are not.

My opinion is, if they do pursue this in small claims court the result will most likely not be any different.

DeniseM said:

By the time Paypal notifies you - the CC has already withdrawn the $$$.

There is no time - it's a done deal. There is no motivation for the renter to negotiate.

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You are confusing me, if they have time to present their information, why would there be no time to try and resolve?

grupp said:

You are confusing me, if they have time to present their information, why would there be no time to try and resolve?

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Because the CC takes the money back first, and asks questions later.

If the renter already knows their CC is backing them and has already pulled the money back, why would the agree to take less?

But we purchase things all the time without signing a contract and when you do so with a vendor who makes the the terms and conditions clear, you generally have to abide by those conditions. If I buy an Ipad at Staples and hand them cash, I am agreeing to the return policy that is on the big sign by customer service and available at the web site and sometimes on the receipt itself.


If I send out the terms of the rental, ask the person to read them and ask any questions and if they decide to go forward with the rental this is the information I need, haven't they agreed to the terms.

This is the wording I use as modified from one of the samples found on TUG

"The only type of refund that would be allowed is if the reserved units are uninhabitable on or before the date the term starts, by reason of flood, fire, storm, or for any other reason, as certified by an employee of the resort or XYZ management company and the resort is unable to accommodate the renter in an equivalent or larger unit, the owner shall refund the rent forthwith and will thereafter have no further liability to renter. Vacation insurance through a 3rd party vendor is recommended as any personal reasons for cancellations or no show including illness or any other reason by the renter will not result in a refund from the owner."


In addition on the Terms and Conditions listed on the paypal invoice
Terms and Conditions

"No refund except as specified in the Rental Agreement sent out xx/xx/xxxx"

and I also attach a jpg of the terms with the invoice.


For higher ticket rentals done 60 days or more out, I will get the renter to sign the terms. For a high priced one 30 days out, I would probably do so as well.

DeniseM said:

Because the CC takes the money back first, and asks questions later.

If the renter already knows their CC is backing them and has already pulled the money back, why would the agree to take less?

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Maybe I am thrown off by the wording "initiated the chargeback" in the original post. I have the impression the money was not immediately taken out. If it was, than agree that no chance to negotiate.

I think we all can agree that renting timeshares involves risk. Some risks we can try and control if we want, others we can't. For me having signed contracts and avoiding PayPal are easy ways to reduce my risk that don't take much effort on my part. I can send out the agreement in a few minutes using Adobe Sign. Most of the payments are via check and occasionally Deposit Guard, very rarely PayPal.

I know others use PayPal and it works for them with chargebacks being very rare. But can be a killer when it does happen.

As stated above, the money is taken out of your Acct. immediately.

sjuhawk_jd said:

This is correct as per Denise.

I have their home address in OH. I can sue them in small claims court in PA or in OH. It will be easier for me to do that in PA, court is one mile from my house. And than transfer the Judgement to OH. Any recommendations on that?

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It will cost you money to file the suit and then it will cost you more to file to enforce the judgment.

Collecting money, even with a valid judgment, is not an easy task. If you are collecting from a business, you stand a chance. From an individual...it's tough. You could end up trying to garnish wages, but that's more money for garnishment proceedings. If somebody else higher up the food chain (child support, taxes, etc.) has a claim, there may not be wages to garnish. You can put a lien on property in some cases, but if they aren't looking to sell, they might not care. Not legal advice, just a warning as to what can be involved.

Sometimes people get sued and look to settle right away, so you might end up with a favorable outcome or get at least some of your money back. But they might ride it out, and even if you win, you still might not see any repayment.

When I saw this thread, I couldn't believe it.

I believed that the OP would win this dispute. It is more than a little disconcerting. Whenever I rent, it has been simply easier to go the PAYPAL route most times. I like checks best, but folks can change their mind. To me, a signed agreement means nothing until you have payment in hand. The other party has no investment in the transaction, except a signed piece of paper. The payment, along with a good signed rental agreement, is your best bet. One without the other is taking on additional risk.

tschwa2 said:

This is the wording I use as modified from one of the samples found on TUG

"The only type of refund that would be allowed is if the reserved units are uninhabitable on or before the date the term starts, by reason of flood, fire, storm, or for any other reason, as certified by an employee of the resort or XYZ management company and the resort is unable to accommodate the renter in an equivalent or larger unit, the owner shall refund the rent forthwith and will thereafter have no further liability to renter. Vacation insurance through a 3rd party vendor is recommended as any personal reasons for cancellations or no show including illness or any other reason by the renter will not result in a refund from the owner."

In addition on the Terms and Conditions listed on the paypal invoice
Terms and Conditions

"No refund except as specified in the Rental Agreement sent out xx/xx/xxxx"

and I also attach a jpg of the terms with the invoice.


For higher ticket rentals done 60 days or more out, I will get the renter to sign the terms. For a high priced one 30 days out, I would probably do so as well.

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Do all that are responding to this thread feel that had the OP only had an agreement signed by the renter, then the OP would have won the dispute?

As with Tracie, I follow mostly the same path when renting my weeks with a good agreement and Paypal invoice reiterating the same terms and conditions. I require a signed agreement. Receipt of payment alone, to me, says that the renter has agreed to the terms and conditions stated on the invoice. The signature on the agreement says that the renter agrees to the contained terms and conditions.

Most of my renters like the fact that I accept Paypal and that is included in my listings. It gives the renter a level of comfort, it's quick and it is convenient.

However, the sharing of experiences like this makes me very nervous. They are rare, but it can only take one time.

Do all those still using mostly PAYPAL for their rentals feel they are protected should a charge-back take place by a renter if using a signed agreement?

I honestly don't think having a "signed" agreement makes any difference - clearly there was an agreement.
Remember, Paypal agreed with the OP, but the CC agreed with their client. When that happens, Paypal has no control over what the credit card company does.

That being said, in 16 years, I have only had one charge-back (just for a $100 deposit) that I could not negotiate with the renter to end the dispute.

(This person paid their deposit, and then emailed me - they typed my email address wrong - it bounced back, and they decided I was a scammer. Instead of calling me, they immediately disputed it with their credit card. I emailed and called them immediately, and they refused to respond. IMNSHO, this is someone who does not have the skills to do business on the internet.)

With any kind of business transaction with the general public, sometimes things just go wrong. It is a calculated risk.

sjuhawk_jd said:

This is correct as per Denise.

I have their home address in OH. I can sue them in small claims court in PA or in OH. It will be easier for me to do that in PA, court is one mile from my house. And than transfer the Judgement to OH. Any recommendations on that?

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If you know what you are doing, then sure, why not?
They probably wont show up, which means you'll win by default.
However, if you know what you are doing, then you are probably aware that you'll need to make several trips, for example, to pick up the paper work to file, to pay and file it, in addition to somewhere between the two to three trips to actually see the judge when the defendant doesnt show up, as the judge will want to make sure that the defendant has been properly served, which means more work for you.
Then, after your default judgement, you'd need to enforce the judgement, which as someone else already mentioned, is no picnic.
Then, if it turns out that you filed in the wrong court, the defendant could petition the judge to annul the judgement. In that case, if the judge grants the petition, you'll have to start over in the right court.

sjuhawk_jd said:

I need some help and advice.

Somebody rented a 2 bedroom oceanfront condo from me for Virginia beach, June 19 to 26th. Paid $1000 deposit via paypal, got reservation letter issued in their name via email, and than paid $1900 via paypal. Inquiry was generated through VRBO (Vacation rentals by owner). This is a timeshare resort and I do not own the entire house. Invoices for both the deposit as well the final payment clearly listed all details and dates and in term and conditions "all sales are final, No refunds and No cancellations, dates are firm"

Lady emailed me around June 15th that they were looking forward to their stay. Emailed and called me again on June 18th, staying that the father in law is in Comma and will not survive, so they want to cancel. I told them that this is too late to cancel and I will see if I can find somebody else to use the reservation and than only I can issue a refund. Reservation went unused, they continue to harass me (via email and phone) for a refund, which I politely declined.

Buyer initiated a chargeback with their credit card company "Item not provided". I wrote a detailed letter explained everything, provided copies of all emails initiated through VRBO email thread, highlighted important details on those emails, provided copy of the reservation letter, printouts of the invoices (highlighting terms and conditions) etc. to credit card company (Via paypal). Paypal sided with me, but the credit card company is now siding with the buyer and allowing the chargeback. paypal is now asking for any further documents to support my position.

Note: Online search did show that father-in-law did pass away

Any suggestions on what I can do?

Thanks

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This is exactly why I purchase travel insurance. In the future you could highly recommend that the traveler purchase travel insurance. Its not your fault that they did not purchase travelers insurance. They should be going after their credit card for any possible insurance they can get but not ask for a chargeback. I am sorry you are going through this.

What i would do is write another letter to Pay Pal stating that the purchaser was responsible to purchase travel insurance and you are not held responsible as it was a legal and binding non cancelable contract that was non negotiable. Sure I could die tomorrow or get very sick but its my responsibility as every travel vendor states to have the proper insurance.. It only costs $100-$200 to get the insurance for me to get back all my money. If I can afford $1,900 I ca afford $100-$200 for insurance.

travelplus said:

What i would do is write another letter to Pay Pal stating that the purchaser was responsible to purchase travel insurance and you are not held responsible as it was a legal and binding non cancelable contract that was non negotiable,

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As stated above, Paypal has already sided with the OP - but the buyer's Credit Card company sided with the buyer, and has already taken back the funds.

The OP has no way to communicate with the CC Company because of the Paypal filter.

DeniseM said:

I honestly don't think having a "signed" agreement makes any difference - clearly there was an agreement.
Remember, Paypal agreed with the OP, but the CC agreed with their client. When that happens, Paypal has no control over what the credit card company does.

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My professional liability carrier advises its policyholders that the signed contract makes a very big difference. We are specifically advised to not try to create terms and conditions using invoice language because of enforceability issues.

Egret1986 said:

Do all that are responding to this thread feel that had the OP only had an agreement signed by the renter, then the OP would have won the dispute?

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I believe you are in a much stronger position with a signed contract, buy no guarantee you win the Chargeback dispute. That is the risk of using PayPal to handle payments.

Also, what PayPal thinks of the dispute is irrelevant as their terms and conditions clearly state Chargebacks are decide by the credit card issuer.

If a sender of a payment files a Chargeback, the credit card issuer, not PayPal, will determine who wins the Chargeback

Just another example of why payments need to be in cash not CC

Tia said:

Just another example of why payments need to be in cash not CC

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From a renter's standpoint, I'd never send cash to someone, especially for hundreds if not thousands unless I could physically hand it to them and get an actual receipt then.

Unless by "cash" you mean something other than credit card, such as check or something.

Checks are another matter because it can take (which is stupid given that law that was passed a while ago) 3 weeks for an out of state check to "clear" and even then a stop payment or NSF can be done and then you don't find out about it for another week. Granted, you're not "out" much money in that case (maybe the NSF fee, depending on your bank) but if you have a rental that's 4 weeks out, then you're kinda hosed.

Nothing is perfect however, and risk is always there. You can only try to protect yourself as best you can with a signed rental agreement, etc.