[2014] Help! [HOA refusing to accept transfer to VSC LLC]

DeniseM said:

I'll play:

The HOA sent her a notice that they would not accept the deed transfer because the company is a known VSC.

• The VSC told her they had everything under control and advised her to ignore the notice.

The HOA sent her the MF bill for 2014.

• The VSC told her they had everything under control and advised her to ignore the notice.

The HOA sent her late notices for the 2014 MF bill.

• The VSC told her they had everything under control and advised her to ignore the notices.

The HOA turned her over to collections.

• The VSC told her, "Oh yeah, they aren't accepting any of our deeds, but NO PROBLEM," we have filed a lawsuit and they don't have a leg to stand on. Just ignore them - we got your back."

Meanwhile the VSC is quietly packing up, moving to a new local, and opening business under a new name - mission accomplished…

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In the words of a wise man, sure are a lot of assumptions in your situation =)

ace2000 said:

sure are a lot of assumptions in your situation =)

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Exactly - I'm playing the same game….

I would question the right of the HOA for refuse to accept a LEGAL transfer to a legally registered entity(with emp ID)except with a ROFR, in anticipation of a default.

im sure you would, however....have you actually challenged such a situation in court?

do you have any references to any such situations successfully challenged and or overturned in court?

I want to hear an answer other than "no" here, I truly do.

TUGBrian said:

I want to hear an answer other than "no" here, I truly do.

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The Christie Lodge in Avon, CO tried to block a legal transfer because they did not approve of the new owner.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/04/05/56403.htm

The HOA wisely settled out of court rather than waste money on a losing battle, and the deed transferred.

Brian:
Do you?

CO skier said:

The Christie Lodge in Avon, CO tried to block a legal transfer because they did not approve of the new owner.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/04/05/56403.htm

The HOA wisely settled out of court rather than waste money on a losing battle, and the deed transferred.

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Interesting article, except it is a different situation: at Christie Lodge, the new owner wasn't a VSC - it was a rental company, and that was the resort's objection.

But in the OP's situation, she posted that there were a number of owners that used the same company to get rid of their deed, so the resort already knew this was a Viking Ship Co., and the VSC was probably already in default on other deeds at the resort. That is a far different situation.

This is happening with all the people that traded Southwind property through Timeshare Trade-ins in Branson, MO.

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CO skier said:

The Christie Lodge in Avon, CO tried to block a legal transfer because they did not approve of the new owner.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/04/05/56403.htm

The HOA wisely settled out of court rather than waste money on a losing battle, and the deed transferred.

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interesting...although it does mention in that article that the new buyer wasnt identified as a transfer company?

I specifically want to see a case where an HOA is forced to accept a transfer to an entity/corporation known to abandon timeshares.

I cannot for any reason think any court anywhere would rule in favor of the seller in that regard, but I am happy to be proven wrong!

also, quick question.

I can find no resort named "summer winds"...do you mean stormy point which is managed by Summer Winds (which is a resort management company)?

Id like to reach out to the resort and get their take on this...but want to be sure of the resort being discussed.

DeniseM said:

Interesting article, except it is a different situation: at Christie Lodge, the new owner wasn't a VSC - it was a rental company, and that was the resort's objection.

But in the OP's situation, she posted that there were a number of owners that used the same company to get rid of their deed, so the resort already knew this was a Viking Ship Co., and the VSC was probably already in default on other deeds at the resort. That is a far different situation.

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It is exactly the same situation, because the OP needs to determine through a search of the county records if the timeshare was transferred to a legal entity.

If the timeshare was never transferred out of the OP's name, then they obviously still own it and are obligated for the MF.

If the recorded deed is no longer in the OP's name, then the OP should consult with an experienced attorney, just as Ms. Space did.

I do not condone the actions of the Viking Ship operations, if that is what is involved here, but they operate in a legal gray zone. Some states have passed laws to address this. These are just more reasons why people like the OP should consult an attorney.

I think we all agree that more information about the situation is needed, hopefully we can get it.

ive sent off an email to the OP and the management company for additional info. Sadly the mgt company owner department closed just a few minutes ago...ill try to contact them again tomorrow if I dont get an email reply.

CO skier said:

It is exactly the same situation, because the OP needs to determine through a search of the county records if the timeshare was transferred to a legal entity.

If the timeshare was never transferred out of the OP's name, then they obviously still own it and are obligated for the MF.

If the recorded deed is no longer in the OP's name, then the OP should consult with an experienced attorney, just as Ms. Space did.

I do not condone the actions of the Viking Ship operations, if that is what is involved here, but they operate in a legal gray zone. Some states have passed laws to address this. These are just more reasons why people like the OP should consult an attorney.

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I disagree - if you can get rid of a timeshare by simply recording the deed with the county records office, why don't all disgruntled timeshare owners simple deed back their timeshare to the resort using this method?

Obviously - you can't - or everyone would do so.

Denise:
Deeding to an accepting legitimately registered entity and deeded back to the HOA are not the same thing legally.

DeniseM said:

I disagree - if you can get rid of a timeshare by simply recording the deed with the county records office, why don't all disgruntled timeshare owners simple deed back their timeshare to the resort using this method?

Obviously - you can't - or everyone would do so.

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If the recorded deed is backed up with a purchase agreement signed by both parties, it is a legitimate deed transfer.

Obviously, HOAs will not sign a purchase agreement with any and all disgruntled owners.

It will be fascinating to see how this all turns out….

Additional info on complicated subject.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214125&highlight=hoa+refuses+timeshare+transfer

THANX
CO skier and ace200 for your support!

TUGBrian said:

Id like to reach out to the resort and get their take on this...but want to be sure of the resort being discussed.

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Brian, that would be great! I'd be interested to know.

e.bram said:

I would question the right of the HOA for refuse to accept a LEGAL transfer to a legally registered entity(with emp ID)except with a ROFR, in anticipation of a default.

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The fact that it's an LLC is a red flag right there! Who is going to use the timeshare each year, and who is going to pay the fees for it? There needs to be accountability.

Val Chatelle's management company will not accept a transfer from just any company. We have a duty as a BOD of a very small timeshare organization to NOT transfer to an illegitimate person. It's not going to be a burden to our owners because another owner is stupid and signs his/her week away, paying a lot of money for the privilege.

We had two owners at our annual meeting, and one person was aghast we were taking owners to court via collections through an attorney to collect fees. I laughed aloud at his indignant questions. I know our budget so well as a board member.

Our president said, "What, do you want to take the week and pay the MF's for him? We have about two dozen weeks with owners who aren't paying. This means we are all paying 10% more than we should be for our fees. How do you feel about that? We are increasing our fees only because we have people not paying; otherwise, we wouldn't have to." Indeed, our fees are going from $500 to $550 on our summer weeks. It doesn't take a math degree........

rickandcindy23 said:

Our president said, "What, do you want to take the week and pay the MF's for him?

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How did the disgruntled owner respond to that?

Maybe we should get rid of LLCs and corps as entities of ownership and go back to personal and partnership ownerships.
End the stock market, after all GM, Kodak and Xler(among others)went belly up causing losses to many people.

rickandcindy23 said:

The fact that it's an LLC is a red flag right there! Who is going to use the timeshare each year, and who is going to pay the fees for it? There needs to be accountability.

Val Chatelle's management company will not accept a transfer from just any company. We have a duty as a BOD of a very small timeshare organization to NOT transfer to an illegitimate person. It's not going to be a burden to our owners because another owner is stupid and signs his/her week away, paying a lot of money for the privilege.

We had two owners at our annual meeting, and one person was aghast we were taking owners to court via collections through an attorney to collect fees. I laughed aloud at his indignant questions. I know our budget so well as a board member.

Our president said, "What, do you want to take the week and pay the MF's for him? We have about two dozen weeks with owners who aren't paying. This means we are all paying 10% more than we should be for our fees. How do you feel about that? We are increasing our fees only because we have people not paying; otherwise, we wouldn't have to." Indeed, our fees are going from $500 to $550 on our summer weeks. It doesn't take a math degree........

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Of course no timeshare owner wants to have to pay more than their fair share in order to cover others who don't pay theirs, but that still doesn't give HOA Boards the right to deny ownership among consenting parties unless the specific terms and conditions of the governing documents give them the rights either expressly or otherwise. If the t&c's support it, fine. But if not, then the HOA Board should be on the hook and held liable.

We don't know if that's the situation here but obviously some in the discussion assume it is. I don't have a problem with others posting the questions that might lead to a different assumption, and that can lead an attorney when engaged in these situations. (I certainly don't think that the TUGgers who know the questions are "trolls.") But theorizing on the answers isn't really helpful. The answers need to be based on the specific legalities that apply to each individual situation, and are what will lead a qualified attorney to an expert opinion that will hopefully help the individuals who find themselves in these unfortunate situations.

The point has been made over and over on TUG that the industry needs to come up with feasible, allowable options for owners who no longer want or can no longer handle the financial responsibility that comes with ownership. But us demanding that the HOA Boards, developers, managers and anyone else involved should be allowed to act counter to any applicable t&c's isn't the answer, IMO. We could work to get the bylaws/t&c's changed if that's what it takes, but IMO we shouldn't advocate riding roughshod all over the ones that stand in our way.

There are at least as many questions here as answers. We can only hope that the OP comes back to clarify how she came to be turned over to collection over one year's late MF, and that Brian is able to contact the HOA for the straight skinny on the requirements for transfer.

Since it appears the HOA has onerous requirements to transfer an ownership, and seem to be developer controlled, of course they can do what lines their investors' pockets to the detriment of the owners. It's a shame.

All the more reason to read AND UNDERSTAND the fine print before signing ANY contract.

Jim

There are so many dynamics in play here, many folks focus on one or the other as it suits their argument (im not innocent in this regard either).

1. folks who think resorts should take units back no matter what.

2. folks who think owners should pay forever

3. folks who think its ok for folks to deed their timeshares to a bogus LLC for the purposes of abandoning it

4. folks who think its ok to just stop paying/declare bankrupcy and force the HOA to foreclose

5. folks who think there should be some grey area in which intervals are taken back on a per-case basis with various stipulations.



I believe that everyone out there falls into one or two of these camps. With owners looking to sell mostly in camp 1

and happy owners not the least bit interested in selling, along with resort developers/hoa's etc firmly in camp 2.

for those of you arguing that "llc's are a must because there arent any other options"....it is a bit misleading...because there is most certainly always an option to stop paying or declaring bankrupcy...but many gloss over this simply because this action actually has consequences for the owner who wants to break his or her financial obligation.

Passepartout said:

There are at least as many questions here as answers. We can only hope that the OP comes back to clarify how she came to be turned over to collection over one year's late MF, and that Brian is able to contact the HOA for the straight skinny on the requirements for transfer.

Since it appears the HOA has onerous requirements to transfer an ownership, and seem to be developer controlled, of course they can do what lines their investors' pockets to the detriment of the owners. It's a shame.

All the more reason to read AND UNDERSTAND the fine print before signing ANY contract.

Jim

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It really is the most important thing an owner can do to protect his investment, in terms of the "timeshare lifestyle" as well as the financial considerations.

I'm always curious ... how many people who buy timeshares on the external resale markets ever get copies of all of the governing documents for their particular ownerships? I always see comments about getting the deed and making sure the resale papers are filed properly, but I hardly ever see comments about getting and reading the attendant Public Offering Statements (which include the timeshare declarations, master deeds, management contracts, etc.) I don't know about other systems but with Marriott resales the t&c's transfer fully with a resale, and the POS can be two- three-, four-hundred pages long. They're chock-full of valuable info, although admittedly most TUGgers wouldn't like most of what's in them.