Is it worth it to convert to Wyndham to get VIP level?

Hello,

We sat through a developer presentation this week to consider converting our RCI points 2 weeks of ts to wyndham points, attaining gold status (would have to purchase 142,000 more points to do, not just convert).

The main draws to convert were to get more weeks by using the discount and unit upgrade at my resort (book a 35% discount 2 bedroom and upgrade to 3 bedroom later). This would give us more vacation time but more strategically allow us points to try and rent units to offset our annual fees (and even cost to upgrade).

I looked and I could buy points via ebay on the cheap, but I'd be stuck paying even higher MFs plus have my original units MFs and those resale points don't count towards VIP levels.

Renting my weeks has become near impossible at my resort because they now require paying renters to buy the resort's activities packages ($1000-$4000 per week) or else they don't get access to all the pools, etc. It's so messed up don't get me started, but it's their way to trying to combat the rental competition. RCI points reserved units are not allowed to be rented technically. So the thought was to try and convert.

I can call Wyndham direct and convert I think for roughly $2400 per week (I have 2 bundled together), but I'd still be well short of the # needed to get VIP gold status. And I couldn't buy more resale to get higher. Has to be direct from developer.

Am I missing something?

our sales rep showed us his customer list and 2016 receipts of units he's rented for them to help them offset their MFs. I realize if I go through extra vacations they get 40% and aren't obligated to rent more than 1 night so I could lose $. But I could always rent myself through airbnb, ebay, vrbo, craigslist, etc.

Thoughts? I'm not excited about dolling out thousands to convert but if I can recoup that in a couple of years and then eat away at MF going forward it might be worthy investment, no?

Just an FYI - the MF including program fee would be $730 more per year to be in wyndham with the extra points than to stay with RCI after I include their membership fee and 1 full week exchange per year. The years we do 2 exchanges, the difference would only be $510. But with wyndham we'd be able to get 3 weeks of 3 bedroom prime weeks with those points. or put another way, 1 week plus lots of rental opportunities.

It sounds like you are talking Smugglers Notch. Just be aware that if you rent out a unit booked with points, you will have the same problem with the guest not having access to the activity card.

In terms of the discount if you are VIP you could book a 2 br unit and then do a cancel/rebook (which always has a chance of losing the unit during the process) for the 35% discount. The upgrade to the larger unit would only apply if a 3 br happened to be available sitting in open inventory at the time your window opens up. Likely a higher level VIP would have already taken the larger unit.

If you convert the two weeks without buying points at the same time for the fee per week, not only would you not have enough points, I don't think they would necesarily count toward VIP if you bought retail later unless you specifically had that spelled out in the contract. Normally straight conversions for the $2000+ don't count toward VIP status. They also like to give you bonus points that make you think you have a specific VIP level than that level expires in 2 years. So make sure if you are paying that you are permanently at the VIP level you think you are getting and that everything is clearly in the contract. Nothing worse than spending $20,000-40,000 and then finding you need to spend another $20,000+ to get what you thought you already bought.

tschwa2 said:

It sounds like you are talking Smugglers Notch. Just be aware that if you rent out a unit booked with points, you will have the same problem with the guest not having access to the activity card.

In terms of the discount if you are VIP you could book a 2 br unit and then do a cancel/rebook (which always has a chance of losing the unit during the process) for the 35% discount. The upgrade to the larger unit would only apply if a 3 br happened to be available sitting in open inventory at the time your window opens up. Likely a higher level VIP would have already taken the larger unit.

If you convert the two weeks without buying points at the same time for the fee per week, not only would you not have enough points, I don't think they would necesarily count toward VIP if you bought retail later unless you specifically had that spelled out in the contract. Normally straight conversions for the $2000+ don't count toward VIP status. They also like to give you bonus points that make you think you have a specific VIP level than that level expires in 2 years. So make sure if you are paying that you are permanently at the VIP level you think you are getting and that everything is clearly in the contract. Nothing worse than spending $20,000-40,000 and then finding you need to spend another $20,000+ to get what you thought you already bought.

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yes, sadly it's smugglers notch. we love the resort (on our 2nd week there right now) but hated having to buying the extra float week and pay all the same fees twice. it's a ripoff but hey, they're a business and if they can convince people to then they should.

anyway, I wouldn't book and rent units here anymore to offset our fees. i'd have to do it elsewhere. the people renting on redweek, tug, and craigslist are either getting the renters to lie or are going to have ticked off customers who find out they owe thousands extra once they get on site. I don't want to do either so I'd rent elsewhere.

i did plan on asking wyndham at conversion via phone if it would count towards vip status before signing. I'm thinking of scheduling a call and asking the developer sales person if they'd be willing to sell me a VERY cheap amount. they'd still get some $ but it would be $4000-$7000 not the $26,000 they quoted two days ago for only 142,000 points.

I guess I"m wondering if renting these units will realistic. the sales guy says he tries to book 1 year in advance things like daytona, wherever super bowl and major sporting events are, holiday times, etc. he said he has a 87% conversion rate within 30 days of posting a rental with Extra Vacations which is partnered with Hotelier.

A so you are talking about converting weeks at a Wyndham property to points not the PIC program. Is that right

The weeks have to have been purchased from the developer, not resale...Is that the case?

and a purchase of 142000 new points to bring you to gold (Im guessing $20000-$25000)



Those discounts and upgrades sound good, but at the more popular resorts its not going to happen unless you create your own inventory to upgrade into. (make two reservations. a one bedroom and a three bedroom, At the right time cancel the one bedroom and rebook for the discount, then cancel the 3 bedroom and upgrade the one bedroom into it, then cancel the one bedroom>>what you end up with is a 3 bedroom at half the one bedroom price. Sounds good until you realize how many points you tie up and that it doesnt always work. and you paid $25000 for the opportunity

It sounds like you want to be done with your weeks. What I would do is dump the weeks on ebay or through Wyndhams Ovation program and buy a million points on ebay. I think you could do it for about $5000 and keep the $20000 in the bank sure mf is more but your $20000 is still in the bank

Color me dubious...

shifty1981 said:

<snip> our sales rep showed us his customer list and 2016 receipts of units he's rented for them to help them offset their MFs.

Thoughts? I'm not excited about dolling out thousands to convert but if I can recoup that in a couple of years and then eat away at MF going forward it might be worthy investment, no?

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It has been a number of years now since I dumped our ownership within Wyndham. I will also readily admit knowing nothing at all about Smuggler's Notch, beyond the established fact that it was essentially "taken over" by Wyndham just a few years ago.

Those observations aside, a question: What on earth does a sales weasel have to do with conducting rentals on behalf of owners? (Nothing whatsoever, is the answer that comes immediately to my mind, despite whatever "customer list" and "2016 receipts" were "shown" to you by some hungry, deceitful sales weasel).

I don't have a sufficiently current level of Wyndham knowledge to offer well informed advice in your situation. I will simply state that "conversions" are rarely (if ever) actually of any practical, substantive, long term benefit to whoever is ponying up the cash to achieve said "conversion". I can only suggest that you think long and hard before ponying up serious cash, spending more money today to only maybe recoup some rental income tomorrow, succumbing to the sales razzamatazz, lies and misrepresentations of someone who makes a commissions from selling whatever it is they are peddling as an alternative to what you currently own. Just sayin'.

ronparise said:

so you are talking about converting weeks at a Wyndham property to points not the PIC program. Is that right

The weeks ahould have to have been purchased from the developer, not resale...Is that the case?

and a purchase of 142000 new points to bring you to gold (Im guessing $20000-$25000)



Those discounts and upgrades sound good, but at the more popular resorts its not going to happen unless you create your own inventory to upgrade into. (make two reservations. a one bedroom and a three bedroom, At the right time cancel the one bedroom and rebook for the discount, then cancel the 3 bedroom and upgrade the one bedroom into it, then cancel the one bedroom>>what you end up with is a 3 bedroom at half the one bedroom price. Sounds good until you realize how many points you tie up and that it doesnt always work. and you paid $25000 for the opportunity

It sounds like you want to be done with your weeks. What I would do is dump the weeks on ebay or through Wyndhams Ovation program and buy a million points on ebay. I think you could do it for about $5000 and keep the $20000 in the bank sure mf is more but your $20000 is still in the bank

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I'm actually not sure if my unit would be considered resale or not from Wyndham's perspective. Smuggs was RCI before wyndham partnered with them for many years. I bought mine resale that was already in RCI. The next year Smuggs partnered and has been getting people converted since then. So it was never Wyndham resale, but it was resale with RCI. I guess calling is all I can do (and get it in writing). Some I'm talking about converting RCI points to Wyndham points.

Yes the first paper offer was $26,400 for 142,000 wyndham points. I only paid $12,000 for the 2 weeks (worth 558,000 wyndham points). No way in the world I'm going to pay $26K for anything other than a house or car.

the idea of dumping my unit on ebay is a hard thing to swallow. we still want to go there once or twice a year, we paid for 20 years of benefits (camps, activities passes, lift tickets and ski lessons discounts). we'd lose that if we dumped it.

The only thing I can think of doing is trying to get the developer down to $7000k minimum for those 142,000 and the conversion. I think they offered it for $5000 that first year straight up but we had just put down $15,000 for the units and benefits we weren't about to convert for another $5000. had I seen the future what they'd do to renters I might have converted then.

If I buy a million points and pay the same program+maintenance fee as I am now I'd just have points to try and rent every year plus my own smuggs units.

anyone know if there are popular wyndham renters here or others or is it pretty hard to find renters?

theo said:

It has been a number of years now since I dumped our ownership within Wyndham. I will also readily admit knowing nothing at all about Smuggler's Notch, beyond the established fact that it was essentially "taken over" by Wyndham just a few years ago.

Those observations aside, I'll ask one question --- What on earth does a sales weasel have to do with conducting rentals on behalf of owners? (Nothing whatsoever, is the answer that comes immediately to my own mind, despite whatever "customer list" and "2016 receipts" were reportedly "shown" to you by a hungry sales weasel).

I don't have a sufficiently current level of Wyndham knowledge to offer well informed advice in your situation. I will simply state that "conversions" are rarely (if ever) actually of any practical, substantive, long term benefit to whoever is ponying up the cash to achieve said "conversion". I can only suggest that you think long and hard before ponying up serious cash, spending more money today to maybe recoup some rental money tomorrow, essentially succumbing to the sales razzamatazz of someone who makes a living off sales commissions from whatever it is they are peddling as an alternative to what you currently, already own. Just sayin'.

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He said all his customers he emails monthly to see if they have any points they want him to try and find a renter for. He does this through Extra Holidays. basically instead of me doing the leg work of finding units at in demand locations at in demand times and figure out the rental rate to charge he does the leg work. Then he gets a portion of the commission Extra Holidays gets. It's his incentive to find us the best rate since his commission is percentage based. The service sounded helpful, but eventually if not right away I'd want to do that leg work myself.

basically trying to find a way to legitimately rent units to help offset if not completely cover our yearly costs, at least for the float week. we could rent direct to people but now that they'll have that huge up front cost smuggs is forcing they are driving owners out of the rental market. because of their huge amount of activities it's no wonder other timeshare rental places aren't doing this.

He's lying about the rentals. You will never hear from him again after buying. You aren't going to get the number of points you want/need below $10,000. I would be surprised if you could make the deal happen for under $18,000 out of pocket.

tschwa2 said:

He's lying about the rentals. You will never hear from him again after buying. You aren't going to get the number of points you want/need below $10,000. I would be surprised if you could make the deal happen for under $18,000 out of pocket.

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tschwa2 is 200% correct. The sales guys & gals are a life form which survives by lying to everyone. They are worst than "hat check" ladies and pimps. They lied about everything ... they practice lying to the point they even believe themselves. Just ask ANY sales person, HOW MANY POINTS DO YOU OWN? And WHERE? They go to other Wyndham resorts if they are license to sell real estate in that state to work special events or called in to apply for a job or guest of an owner who they are trying to play. And Wyndham flies them into these party (SALES) weekends as a reward or exposure to other sales managers...while trying to sell to BIG WYNDHAM targets ... as in taking a 850K points owner to Presidential ownership with a BIG NEW LOAN.

it saddens and sickens me if everyone is like this and those that aren't are not successful.

so if I want to rent to offset my fees it seems like my only hope is to find someone dumping a ton of points on ebay with decent MF and try to make up those costs, their annual fees and have enough left over to offset my current ownership? lots of risk

i found my older coversion emails with wyndham from a few years ago. it was right as gold was going from 500,000 to 700,000 and we discussed this being grandfathered so it would seem I would at least be allowed in despite buying resale before my resort was wyndham. I could try that route and at least get the 25% discount for starting off above 300,000. then maybe go to some resort and try to get a a steal on a new purchase?

I wouldn't start throwing in $18,000 + on the hopes you can get some of it back renting. What it sounds like you need to do is try to dump your weeks if you are not going to use them at least most of the time. If you want occasional use, buy just enough Wyndham points resale that you will use.

shifty1981 said:

He said all his customers he emails monthly to see if they have any points they want him to try and find a renter for. He does this through Extra Holidays. basically instead of me doing the leg work of finding units at in demand locations at in demand times and figure out the rental rate to charge he does the leg work. Then he gets a portion of the commission Extra Holidays gets. It's his incentive to find us the best rate since his commission is percentage based. The service sounded helpful, but eventually if not right away I'd want to do that leg work myself.

basically trying to find a way to legitimately rent units to help offset if not completely cover our yearly costs, at least for the float week. we could rent direct to people but now that they'll have that huge up front cost smuggs is forcing they are driving owners out of the rental market. because of their huge amount of activities it's no wonder other timeshare rental places aren't doing this.

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he has no "in" with extra holidays. They rent out your points or not with zero input from the sales weasel. This is an old sales tactic that I have heard a few times before.

agree with Ron, except....

I have to agree here with Ron except for one thing. You obviously love Smuggler's and have made a considerable investment in it outside of the timeshare. Keep it.

But instead of giving $20k+ to Wyndham to MAYBE upgrade to Gold, and MAYBE be able to get some discounts go the route Ron suggests. Find a million points on eBay or TUG or somewhere reputable, buy them for around $5k, and then rent enough of the points to cover the maintenance fees for the year and use the remaining points for extra vacation time.

Remember that the lower the maintenance fees the fewer points you have to rent leaving more for you to travel with. Be patient, find a good resort with decent demand and go for it.

Wanted to give a big thanks to all who replied. I ended up not even bothering going back to the developer to see if they'd do 142,000 for $7K. after learning how there's no way he can rent for me through extra vacations and get paid I don't trust him. My guess is if I looked at the commission notebook long enough I might ahve noticed it was his sales commissions and not rentals. the way I figured it if he could make so much getting a portion of the 40% from extra vacations he rented for people then he'd just be doing what ya'll suggest and buy a ton of his own points and rent those instead of spending 4 or 5 days a week trying to earn commissions from sales.

i'm not sure I have the gumption yet to tack on even more maintenance fee risks buy buying 1m points. that would force probably near $2500 in MF I'm guessing. The whole point was to offset the smuggs MFs at least because they force almost everyone to own an extra float week. I may still give renting a try next year, we'll see.

one question on buying 1m points. Are you saying if I wait long enough I'll find someone selling that many tied to 1 unit? or buy multiple units/points that add up to that. in effect I'd have MF payments to lots of places right? I guess the plus side is trying to sell them would be easier if I had to since it could be sold in smaller units.

I think a million points would be more like $5000-$6000 (more if you buy high MF deeds) in MF per year paid monthly. It would take a fair amount of work to rent out that many from the get go. Also figure it costing another $5000-$10,000 to buy a million points.

In converted timeshares, owners of prime weeks generally do not convert(the use or rent) leaving the point owners with dog weeks which can't be rented and the points owners are not interested in using since the are off season weeks.