Lost in the cancel and Rebook game

CO skier · Dec 18, 2014

ecwinch said:
Fred - Not exactly sure how this is cheating the system. The entity most impacted here (Wyndham) - is the one that is running around selling owners the VIP memberships and promoting this strategy as a benefit of VIP.

And cheating typically involves breaking a rule. This strategy is no more cheating the system then is using a grouped reservation to get a high demand resort in the Worldmark system.

Sorry, not Fred.

Let's not be obtuse. Those who cancel and re-book for premium reservations, some of which are made 13 months in advance, know they are playing a loophole.

If we want to invoke rules, when a cancel/rebook attempt fails, all the points for the reservation are returned as cancelled points according to the rules. There is no cause for complaint.

The mechanism responsible for the failed attempt -- Extra Holidays, broken water mains, overbooking, rogue computer programs -- does not matter. No one forced the owner to cancel.

Cancel/rebook is a gamble. The sales weasels don't go so far as to offer guarantees, but they do present only the upside, as any good salesperson would. It seems the risks are starting, somewhat, to reflect the potential reward. It makes the gamble that much more exciting. Skip Vegas, take the money saved and buy a Wyndham platinum account.

jebloomquist · Dec 18, 2014

CO skier said:
The mechanism responsible for the failed attempt -- Extra Holidays, broken water mains, overbooking, rogue computer programs -- does not matter. No one forced the owner to cancel.

Cancel/rebook is a gamble.

Yes the cancel/rebook is a gamble.

But, if some or many are running programs to grab them, not only is the cancel/rebooker at a disadvantage, the ordinary owner who once in a while catches a break, will no longer be a winner. It is everyone who is out looking for that resort for that time frame who will be the loser, not just the cancel/rebooker.

Jim

ronparise · Dec 18, 2014

ada903 said:
Thank you Sandi! I did just that with safari multiple tabs and lost a president week one bedroom and I can't believe a human could have gotten it so fast. I saw it coming back but it's as if something was holding it and took it from me. That's ok... Ron was that you? Lol

not me

Are you implying I am not a human??

Bigrob · Dec 18, 2014

jebloomquist said:
I called Owner Care today with a suggestion of a change that could be made to the web site to make it harder for anyone using a program to grab cancelled units. To say the least, I was amazed at the response that I received from Owner Care.

"We know that there are complaints about the possibility that there is a program running. But, we have an IT team that is looking into the problem, and they don't want your ideas."

I asked if I could talk to someone doing IT. I was told "No." Wyndham outsources this and none of the 900,000 owners can talk to them. So, I asked if I could give my ideas to Owner Care and have them passed on to the IT group. "No. The IT group knows what it is doing." I said that the outsource IT group must get its basic instructions on what to do from someone in Wyndham. Could I talk with anyone in Wyndham doing that? "No."

Regardless of what I said or asked, the response was "No."

I can think of a very simple thing that could be done with the web site to make it much more difficult to automate the search. Wyndham doesn't even want to hear it.

This leads me to some simple questions, "Does Wyndham have its own program running, and therefore doesn't want anything to make it more difficult to grab cancellations.?" "Why would Owner Care be so hostile concerning my ideas?" "Why would Wyndham not want to solve this potential problem?"

My experience leads me to believe that something has fundamentally changed over that last few months in the reservation system. I have lost more reservations in the last two months than I had lost in the previous two years.

Maybe someone will have to hack into the system, just to find out what is going on.

I am very disappointed in Wyndham's response to my inquiry.

Jim

This response does not surprise me in the least. But I'm not sure I'd jump to the same conclusions as to why they aren't accepting ideas for IT improvements from the Owner Care line. I've similarly offered ideas for streamlining their obviously broken document intake process in Title Services and was met with the same type of response. My guess is that it just isn't within the scope of things Owner Care can respond to. Nonetheless, the specific representative within Owner Care you speak to makes a huge difference. I have had 2 who were absolutely amazing, going above and beyond to get things done and crossing over organizational lines to make things happen. And I've had others who, although pleasant, were annoyingly unhelpful. For the exact same situation.

You could play dial a rep to see if you get a different response from a different rep. But I'm guessing even the good ones are going to throw their hands up based on the fact they have no influence or input on IT.

Bigrob · Dec 18, 2014

CO skier said:
When VIP owners cancel and rebook for a 50% discount, the points to pay the other 50% come from unsold Wyndham inventory.

It is ironic when those who cheat the system for their personal benefit object to those who are better at cheating the system for their personal benefit.

A waitlist, such as in the WorldMark system where a Wyndham computer is continuously searching for a match, would go a long way to ending all this nonsense. It works well for WorldMark owners and they love it.

Actually, only one of the parties you mention is actually cheating the system. The regular VIP owner using cancel/rebook is working within the system to maximize the value of their ownership. This particular aspect of working within the system to maximize the value of a VIP ownership has been part of the selling message at Fairfield/Wyndham for well over a decade.

Certainly there are differences between the Wyndham and Worldmark reservation systems. The fact is, working within the system to get the most out of the ownership isn't "cheating" the system, it's understanding it and making the most of it. And while the mechanisms for "maximizing" the value of Worldmark ownership are different, they do exist in that system as well.

Is it possible that there are unintended "opportunities" within each system? Certainly. But knowing and using these opportunities isn't cheating. That's like saying smart tax planning and working within the tax code to minimize your tax obligation is "cheating on your taxes". There is certainly a difference between using the system based on one's knowledge, and deliberately developing APIs to hack a security vulnerability of a website.

ronparise · Dec 18, 2014

DeeDibble said:
There is no doubt that the Vacation Counselors are hearing complaints from owners. I have been on the phone with them several times and have expressed my opinion about what I have been experiencing. Each time I tell them that it's getting ridiculous that we all have been "SOLD" on the ability to get the discounts by planning ahead and then when we are in the 60 day window we can call in and cancel to only REBOOK for the discount. I also tell them that in every single meeting for the last 20 years the sales team ALWAYS talk about the advantage of being a GOLD/PLATINUM owner. I usually tell them that the problem is also caused by SALES giving Bonus Points to be used within the next 12 months so that owners can " try" the GOLD or PLATINUM Status. (Last winter while in Florida there were countless conversations among owners about getting extra points for the next year). Wyndham's sales strategy is a disservice to the owners. May I say that again: WYNDHAM SALES TEAM IS A DISSERVICE TO THE OWNERS!.... I had a conversation with one of the vacation counselors yesterday who told me for the last few weeks there has always been 40 calls in the que( members on hold). Another vc told me that there has been hundreds of owners that still have anniversary dates March to March and these people have been trying to use their points before they expire. The other part of the problem is they are selling WYNDHAM Access of which enables booking 13 months in advance.......hence: More demand in areas then there are rooms, condos......I also asked one of them " can Extra Holidays " grab" cancellations?" He said that the only way Extra Holidays can get points is only when a member contacts Extra Holidays can EH get them.......we still have the simple fact that I believe Ronraprise has stated: that every contract there is language that states that Wyndham has the authority at its sole discretion to take unused inventory for the purposes of renting.... Yes, Linda, we have a problem! As an individual owner that has purchased points with Wyndham for the sole purpose of " quiet enjoyment" with my family and friends I feel as if we are being " squeezed out" by " big business" . I am not much of a conspiracy theorist either but there is no doubt that some computer system is breaching the system and snatching units. With all this said: you better believe that Wyndham will be hearing about it. I really think ALL OF US should write a letter to the CEO ( is it Hans?)

DEE

I dont understand your complaint. The discounts within 60 days are meant to get vacancies into reservations. When I cancel and rebook I am doing it to get a discount on something I have already reserved.
If Wyndham institutes a wait list, or somehow stops us from playing the cancel and rebook game, those reservations wont be cancelled at all, and they will never come available in the 60 day window.

If you are vip and your complaint is that you are losing reservations playing cancel and rebook, then you have nothing to complain about either. Its just that someone else is playing it better than you.

am1 · Dec 18, 2014

ronparise said:
If you are vip and your complaint is that you are losing reservations playing cancel and rebook, then you have nothing to complain about either. Its just that someone else is playing it better than you.

Even if they are using a computer program to grab them without anyone else having a chance?

bogey21 · Dec 18, 2014

DeeDibble said:
Each time I tell them that it's getting ridiculous that we all have been "SOLD" on the ability to get the discounts by planning ahead and then when we are in the 60 day window we can call in and cancel to only REBOOK for the discount.

Join the crowd. The big boys always retain the right to change anything they darn well please when it suits them. Period, end of story!

George

Bigrob · Dec 18, 2014

DeeDibble said:
There is no doubt that the Vacation Counselors are hearing complaints from owners. I have been on the phone with them several times and have expressed my opinion about what I have been experiencing. Each time I tell them that it's getting ridiculous that we all have been "SOLD" on the ability to get the discounts by planning ahead and then when we are in the 60 day window we can call in and cancel to only REBOOK for the discount. I also tell them that in every single meeting for the last 20 years the sales team ALWAYS talk about the advantage of being a GOLD/PLATINUM owner. I usually tell them that the problem is also caused by SALES giving Bonus Points to be used within the next 12 months so that owners can " try" the GOLD or PLATINUM Status. (Last winter while in Florida there were countless conversations among owners about getting extra points for the next year). Wyndham's sales strategy is a disservice to the owners. May I say that again: WYNDHAM SALES TEAM IS A DISSERVICE TO THE OWNERS!.... I had a conversation with one of the vacation counselors yesterday who told me for the last few weeks there has always been 40 calls in the que( members on hold). Another vc told me that there has been hundreds of owners that still have anniversary dates March to March and these people have been trying to use their points before they expire. The other part of the problem is they are selling WYNDHAM Access of which enables booking 13 months in advance.......hence: More demand in areas then there are rooms, condos......I also asked one of them " can Extra Holidays " grab" cancellations?" He said that the only way Extra Holidays can get points is only when a member contacts Extra Holidays can EH get them.......we still have the simple fact that I believe Ronraprise has stated: that every contract there is language that states that Wyndham has the authority at its sole discretion to take unused inventory for the purposes of renting.... Yes, Linda, we have a problem! As an individual owner that has purchased points with Wyndham for the sole purpose of " quiet enjoyment" with my family and friends I feel as if we are being " squeezed out" by " big business" . I am not much of a conspiracy theorist either but there is no doubt that some computer system is breaching the system and snatching units. With all this said: you better believe that Wyndham will be hearing about it. I really think ALL OF US should write a letter to the CEO ( is it Hans?)

I think the one you want is Franz.

As President and Chief Executive Officer, Wyndham Vacation Ownership at WYNDHAM WORLDWIDE CORP, Franz S. Hanning made $4,606,429 in total compensation. Of this total $710,027 was received as a salary, $1,194,000 was received as a bonus, $0 was received in stock options, $2,500,000 was awarded as stock and $202,402 came from other types of compensation. This information is according to proxy statements filed for the 2013 fiscal year.

When a VC tells you that an "owner" has to deposit into EH to rent time, that might lead you to believe private parties may have uncovered a way to systematically grab reservations. However another theory is that Wyndham, as the largest points owner in the system (via unsold inventory), has gotten better at grabbing those reservations to deposit. So it is entirely possible that attractive reservations may quickly be booked and deposited by the largest owner of WVO points. Perhaps it is possible that there have been recent "changes" that have allowed reservations to get picked up faster by this owner who also has inside knowledge of the inventory system and alternate interface channels?

If that is what's happening - and I'm not saying it is - I can't see that anyone has any standing for a legal complaint, since there is language in the trust docs allowing most of the inventory to be grabbed in such a manner. I believe it's up to 90% but I don't have any of the docs in front of me to confirm. Even if this owner grabbed every reservation that came open during a high demand period, they would not get close to 90% due to all the other folks with reservations that were booked and never cancelled during that same period.

Good luck getting Wyndham to "fix" that problem if that's what's causing it.

ecwinch · Dec 18, 2014

It could be as simple as more people playing the game and more people playing the game more frequently and on a greater scale (i.e. a business with a couple of people doing searches).

And building a scriptbot to automate the manual process is not rocket science. Someone must have done it that in the past, or we would not have the captcha security measure. So a more sophisticated scriptbot could be at work.

am1 · Dec 18, 2014

ecwinch said:
It could be as simple as more people playing the game and more people playing the game more frequently and on a greater scale (i.e. a business with a couple of people doing searches).

Not the case here although more people are searching overall.

Bigrob · Dec 18, 2014

ecwinch said:
It could be as simple as more people playing the game and more people playing the game more frequently and on a greater scale (i.e. a business with a couple of people doing searches).

And building a scriptbot to automate the manual process is not rocket science. Someone must have done it that in the past, or we would not have the captcha security measure. So a more sophisticated scriptbot could be at work.

And upgrades are not currently using captcha. It wouldn't surprise me if someone or several someones had automated looking for upgrades.

ecwinch · Dec 18, 2014

Bigrob said:
And upgrades are not currently using captcha. It wouldn't surprise me if someone or several someones had automated looking for upgrades.

Great point. Far easier to build and would create the same behavior.

ronparise · Dec 18, 2014

am1 said:
Even if they are using a computer program to grab them without anyone else having a chance?

I did 10 the other day and 21 more today successfully and upgraded a bunch from studios to one bedrooms. I only lost 2 so the guys with the computers let me keep most of them.

Whether some are using a computer or not makes no difference to me. and I dont think it makes any difference to Wyndham. We are all gaming the system. When Wyndham closes the loophole, it will be closed for all of us.

am1 · Dec 18, 2014

ronparise said:
I did 10 the other day and 21 more today successfully and upgraded a bunch from studios to one bedrooms. I only lost 2 so the guys with the computers let me keep most of them.

Whether some are using a computer or not makes no difference to me. and I dont think it makes any difference to Wyndham. We are all gaming the system. When Wyndham closes the loophole, it will be closed for all of us.

If you just lost two it was inventory control or another owner beat you to the reservation. Big difference then losing them all to a computer.

Beefnot · Dec 18, 2014

ronparise said:
I did 10 the other day and 21 more today successfully and upgraded a bunch from studios to one bedrooms. I only lost 2 so the guys with the computers let me keep most of them.

That gave me a hearty laugh.

cyseitz · Dec 18, 2014

am1 said:
If you just lost two it was inventory control or another owner beat you to the reservation. Big difference then losing them all to a computer.

I do lose them from time to time, but not that often.

CO skier · Dec 18, 2014

DeeDibble said:
So the question is: "do we dare do it again?"

ronparise said:
I did 10 the other day and 21 more today successfully and upgraded a bunch from studios to one bedrooms. I only lost 2 so the guys with the computers let me keep most of them.

Why not outsource it?

Ron Parise seems to have the hot hand, and he seems trustworthy enough, so why not send him a PM to inquire and negotiate a rate for him to use your account to cancel and rebook for you.

If he can't do it, nobody can.

ronparise · Dec 18, 2014

CO skier said:
Why not outsource it?

Ron Parise seems to have the hot hand, and he seems trustworthy enough, so why not send him a PM to inquire and negotiate a rate for him to use your account to cancel and rebook for you.

If he can't do it, nobody can.

Its not me.. I was just that last year I made more reservations than I needed, knowing that I was going to end up losing a few. I was going to play until I lost 2 in a row, or 4 over all.

I was just lucky that no one else was playing at the same resort at the same time.

CO skier · Dec 18, 2014

ronparise said:
Its not me.. I was just that last year I made more reservations than I needed, knowing that I was going to end up losing a few.

So after all this the OP is really just back to post #2?

DeeDibble · Dec 18, 2014

And that is why I am COMPLAINING!!!!!!! Thank you for seeing what I am seeing

am1 said:
Even if they are using a computer program to grab them without anyone else having a chance?

DeeDibble · Dec 18, 2014

ecwinch said:
It could be as simple as more people playing the game and more people playing the game more frequently and on a greater scale (i.e. a business with a couple of people doing searches).

And building a scriptbot to automate the manual process is not rocket science. Someone must have done it that in the past, or we would not have the captcha security measure. So a more sophisticated scriptbot could be at work.

I believe that it's a matter of " more people playing the game more frequently on a greater scale". Again, as mentioned before: it's much more difficult to "roll the dice" this year because everyone wants to be in south Florida this winter and some of those folks are armed with one of 2 things: Wyndham Access and or Bonus Points usable in 2015!

Xcalibur · Dec 19, 2014

I'm happy as long as:

1. They keep bots and other computer programs out of the system. More capcha stuff would be good
2. Wyndham is not taking inventory arbitrarily

Makes it a level playing field.

If ever it was leaked that Wyndham was taking inventory, that would be a huge PR and legal issue.

am1 · Dec 20, 2014

Xcalibur said:
If ever it was leaked that Wyndham was taking inventory, that would be a huge PR and legal issue.

Would it really matter to the bottom line? Except their lost profit from doing it of course?

vacationhopeful · Dec 20, 2014

DeeDibble said:
I believe that it's a matter of " more people playing the game more frequently on a greater scale". Again, as mentioned before: it's much more difficult to "roll the dice" this year because everyone wants to be in south Florida this winter and some of those folks are armed with one of 2 things: Wyndham Access and or Bonus Points usable in 2015!

MY bold section of your statement - this is NOTHING NEW!

I own many Snowbird F/W at the Wyndham resorts in South Florida ... they still exist. And I ain't selling those jems. Back in yester-year ... when you could NOT see or book the cancelled inventory in real time -- it re-loaded into the system at 8AM the next day ... you needed a baseball bat to get to a computer in the resort's computer room (in unit WIFI also did NOT exist).

I brought these starting 8+ years ago - as I realized I would not have the $$$ to buy a close to the beach Snowbird condo (swampland condo, yes; not beachy condo $$$). I figured out the system, resale and ARP ... but F/Ws were the "game" - the back door option.

I own enough F/W to camp in Pompano & Ft Lauderdale from Christmas Day to Easter times 2. Okay, I got picky as to resorts & views - but also to afford those MFs by renting my excess weeks. I just WISH the economy would cooperate in my DAY JOB ... so I could be in Florida all winter long.

But this most likely can not be repeated by a newbie today to the extend of my ownership --- CWA has gobbled up most Pompano winter fixed weeks. Trades in & foreclosures with the HOAs selling those jems back to Wyndham for $1 a deed.

So ... I don't do many save a few points (cancel and rebook) operations on my points reservations (yes, I have ARP points to those South Florida resorts and RARP windows, too) ... I figure they will rent for FULL POINT value - and they do.

It has ALWAYS been a HAPPY CAMPER dance when you can score a LAST MINUTE BOOKING with a discount into SOUTH FLORIDA in the winter .... and I never figure on a unit size upgrade --- NEVER!

PS MANY, many people stay all winter in Orlando area resorts while others stay in Myrtle Beach resorts --- still warmer than home plus oceanviews exist along with indoor pools. And Orlando is way warmer than Buffalo.:ignore:

Lost in the cancel and Rebook game

TUG Review Crew: Rookie