WKORV-N&S Emergency Assessment [Retroactive Taxes]

Living the Dream · Jun 24, 2016

DavidnRobin said:
I just sent a scathing email to above - not that they will give a crap.
I suggest everyone else does as well.

The only way they will 'give a crap" is if we hit their pocket books. Would love to know who on this board has a local business that caters to tourists. Then organize a boycott. Or, pick a business to boycott. Get other time share owners to participate. This is the only way to get their attention.

Tourism is the largest part of their economy. And we are easy marks as nobody is a resident that votes for these people. The easiest tax to pass is one that doesn't directly affect the voters. The only vote we have is with our pocketbooks.

Bob

triangulum33 · Jun 24, 2016

They want to change the tax bill going forward - thats one thing. To go back retroactively to change the way its calculated, after everyone has made financial decisions, or in many cases never even owned a unit, is sneaky and mean.
Its like a drug addict scrounging around for money to fund their habit.

How is this legal?

YYJMSP · Jun 24, 2016

DavidnRobin said:
I follow this is a SA, but it goes to our annual fees no matter how you cut it.
If they are taking care of this tax burden with a SA, then the following MFs will be impacted with new tax rate. Same-Same. The Ad Valorem tax as part of our MF is impacted - this is a fee increase regardless of where or what it is called, OR when it is imposed.

If the tax holds - this will be an ~$200 increase (for OFD) in MF per year in property taxes alone. Why do i feel this way - because it they get away with it once - then they will do it again.

My concern is that they will retroactively do the same to 2009-2016, so 8x$200/yr = $1600 more for the deluxe units in another SA, and then every new year will be $200 more than the current levels...

YYJMSP · Jun 24, 2016

PamMo said:
We didn't even own during those years, but still have to pay!!!

If this follows any sense of fairness, I would think that you the current owner should be able to go back to the previous owner(s) to get them to pay their share as this is a shortfall in taxes, and part of the sale agreement should have been that all taxes were current, etc.

Whether that is easy to do or not is the problem...

YYJMSP · Jun 24, 2016

wannagotoo said:
I wonder if this "assessment" is being applied to other timeshare units being built at the same time.

I would hope so!

If we're being singled out (as the email from Vistana suggests) wouldn't that be grounds for getting this thrown out?

triangulum33 · Jun 24, 2016

Hate mail sent.

Ken555 · Jun 24, 2016

triangulum33 said:
They want to change the tax bill going forward - thats one thing. To go back retroactively to change the way its calculated, after everyone has made financial decisions, or in many cases never even owned a unit, is sneaky and mean.

Its like a drug addict scrounging around for money to fund their habit.

How is this legal?

Exactly. I wish I could retroactively charge clients similarly...oh, sorry guys, I forgot to charge you an extra $250 each year for a few years six years ago and now you must pay up. And, you have two weeks to pay.

FWIW, even though I don't own in Hawaii, I have spoken with several locals about the timeshare tax assessment being much higher as a percentage than other temporary accommodations, much less condos, in general they weren't aware of it.

Scott & Laura · Jun 24, 2016

Maui isn't broke they are facing same thing that all governments and States face

Expectations that vastly require more money than what Tax payers are willing to pay for. Maui like everyone else seeks to get taxes from anyone who is unable to change the outcome of an election. Nationally they incur debt that grand kids are saddled with to pay for to cover benefits we want today. i.e. They are taking money from the third generation without their permission---most places call that theft--in the US its called deficit spending.

Maui board members want to get elected so by sticking Timeshare owners with large taxes they know that many will sell but in order to sell someone else willing to pay will buy. If they charge Hotel people that they wont come.

They are politicians looking to themselves and to keep local taxes down.

Scott

Negma · Jun 24, 2016

As an owner only of the north property I received my letter today

The Haileys · Jun 24, 2016

Dang ... now I kinda wish they'd talked us into converting our WKORV EOY to annual Flex ... :annoyed:

Geez, the hubby is going to have a fit. :doh:

canesfan · Jun 24, 2016

WKORV Emergency Assessment [Retroactive Taxes]

I just hope they don't open up 2009 - forward. Between the 2 properties to owe almost $1000 hurts the budget enough. If they reassess 2009 forward, that will be brutal.

Just the news I want to hear a week before we are set to leave for Maui. It's the last place I want to spend more of my money right now.

VacationForever · Jun 24, 2016

My last trip to Maui was 2 years ago. Between the unfriendly staff at Westin Kaanapali and the most run down and dirty airport that I have experienced in the US, we have no desire to return.

Now, if only more travellers to Maui feel the way I do, tourists dollars will drop and maybe they will treat timeshare owners better.

LisaRex · Jun 24, 2016

I don't get the hatred that County of Maui has towards timeshare owners. Unfortunately, the pissing contest that Starwood (now VSE) entered into with the County of Maui is, of course, hurting the little guy.

Also, I wonder why, if the taxes are due today, why the HOA didn't communicate any of this to the owners before now.

Glad I sold, but am in solidarity with all of you in your disgust.

LisaRex · Jun 24, 2016

YYJMSP said:
If this follows any sense of fairness, I would think that you the current owner should be able to go back to the previous owner(s) to get them to pay their share as this is a shortfall in taxes, and part of the sale agreement should have been that all taxes were current, etc.

Whether that is easy to do or not is the problem...

You're assuming VSE has kept track of former owners. What percentage of owners have moved since they sold WKORV? Do you think that the HOA has the funds to hire investigators to track these people down so that they can try and extract money out of them? Secondly, and most importantly, what idiot would pay this SA when VSE's remedy for non-payment of SAs, per their own contract, is to lock you out of your unit?

Well, okay, go ahead and lock me out of WKORV-N, which I owned from 2007-2012. You'll get another $700 out of me over my dead body.

I hate to be harsh, but one of the MANY reasons I sold WKORV was because the county of Maui was obviously targeting timeshare owners with a grossly unfair tax burden. Screw 'em.

LisaH · Jun 24, 2016

blondietink said:
Note to self: Never buy property, timeshare or otherwise, in Hawaii.

Not all islands are as nuts as Maui. We own a townhouse on Oahu within the Ko Olina resort community. Our annual tax bill is less than $1500.

Sorry for all the WKORV owners. This is REDICULOUS.

LisaRex · Jun 24, 2016

IIRC, both Oahu and Kauai have made moves in the direction that Maui went, by splitting timeshares into their own classification.

labonnevie · Jun 24, 2016

DavidnRobin said:
I just sent a scathing email to above - not that they will give a crap.
I suggest everyone else does as well.

Could you post a few key points that you included, so we can do likewise?

labonnevie · Jun 24, 2016

DeniseM said:
Maui County Council Members and contact info:

http://mauicounty.us/councilmembers/

Mike White - Council Chair
Email: mike.white@mauicounty.us

Don S. Guzman, Council Vice-Chair
Email: don.guzman@mauicounty.us

Michael P. Victorino - Presiding Officer Pro Tempore
Email: michael.victorino@mauicounty.us

Gladys C. Baisa, Councilmember
Email: gladys.baisa@mauicounty.us

Robert Carroll, Councilmember
Email: robert.carroll@mauicounty.us

Elle Cochran, Council Member
Email: elle.cochran@mauicounty.us

Don Couch, Council Member
Email: don.couch@mauicounty.us

Stacy Crivello, Council Member
Email: stacy.crivello@mauicounty.us

Riki Hokama, Council Member (Chair of the Budget and Finance Committee.)
Email: riki.hokama@mauicounty.us

Kalana O Maui Building
200 South High St.
Eighth Floor
Wailuku, Hawaii 96793

Elle Cochran is the council member for west Maui and her Facebook page is:
https://www.facebook.com/ellecochran/timeline

we may want to tell her we do not feel welcome in her area and spending our money with her constituents' businesses

Mike White has a Mike White for County Council Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/Friends.Mike.White/

as does Don Guzman:
https://www.facebook.com/Don-S-Guzman-for-Maui-County-Council-241491652574080/

A few key talking points for our letters/posts would be helpful.

triangulum33 · Jun 24, 2016

Thank you labonnevie. I posted my feelings on their FB pages. Not that it will matter.

YYJMSP · Jun 24, 2016

LisaRex said:
You're assuming VSE has kept track of former owners. What percentage of owners have moved since they sold WKORV? Do you think that the HOA has the funds to hire investigators to track these people down so that they can try and extract money out of them? Secondly, and most importantly, what idiot would pay this SA when VSE's remedy for non-payment of SAs, per their own contract, is to lock you out of your unit?

Well, okay, go ahead and lock me out of WKORV-N, which I owned from 2007-2012. You'll get another $700 out of me over my dead body.

I hate to be harsh, but one of the MANY reasons I sold WKORV was because the county of Maui was obviously targeting timeshare owners with a grossly unfair tax burden. Screw 'em.

VSE isn't party to your contract with the previous owner. There is no reason for them to go after someone else, they are going to look to you to pay the whole bill, or they will take action against you.

So, you're stuck paying the whole bill now. Not really any different from having to pay a share of the overall MF delinquencies (which I suspect may be the next wave of this if everyone doesn't pay their share now) for something you don't even own.

In theory, you know who you bought your unit from. You could go after them (small claims?) for breach of contract to get the portion of the taxes prior to your taking ownership. They could in turn go after the previous owner, etc, etc.

Not suggesting it's easy or desirable. I suspect most people will not bother and just get stuck with paying more than they have to. But if I was someone who bought resale just now, and get stuck with back taxes from 2006 onwards (which is what I suspect will happen in time), I would try to get back whatever I could...

VacationForever · Jun 24, 2016

YYJMSP said:
VSE isn't party to your contract with the previous owner. There is no reason for them to go after someone else, they are going to look to you to pay the whole bill, or they will take action against you.

So, you're stuck paying the whole bill now. Not really any different from having to pay a share of the overall MF delinquencies (which I suspect may be the next wave of this if everyone doesn't pay their share now) for something you don't even own.

In theory, you know who you bought your unit from. You could go after them (small claims?) for breach of contract to get the portion of the taxes prior to your taking ownership. They could in turn go after the previous owner, etc, etc.

Not suggesting it's easy or desirable. I suspect most people will not bother and just get stuck with paying more than they have to. But if I was someone who bought resale just now, and get stuck with back taxes from 2006 onwards (which is what I suspect will happen in time), I would try to get back whatever I could...

There is no breach of contract. The contract was that all outstanding liabilities were paid. This is a new liability that was not in existence at the time the timeshare sale was transacted.

vacationtime1 · Jun 24, 2016

Living the Dream said:
The only way they will 'give a crap" is if we hit their pocket books. Would love to know who on this board has a local business that caters to tourists. Then organize a boycott. Or, pick a business to boycott. Get other time share owners to participate. This is the only way to get their attention.

Tourism is the largest part of their economy. And we are easy marks as nobody is a resident that votes for these people. The easiest tax to pass is one that doesn't directly affect the voters. The only vote we have is with our pocketbooks.

Bob

I will let them know that our next Maui trip will be restaurant-less. And copy Duke's, Pacific-O's, Mama's, etc. so they know what their elected officials are doing -- to them.

The concept being that we will spend "X" dollars on a Maui trip, and if it has to go to property taxes, there is less to spend on other things.

Helios · Jun 24, 2016

sptung said:
There is no breach of contract. The contract was that all outstanding liabilities were paid. This is a new liability that was not in existence at the time the timeshare sale was transacted.

Agree, it can't be bridge of contract for something that happened after the fact. I think the previous owners should pay the retroactive taxes, but would they? I don't think so.

Could title insurance hep here (for whoever got it)?

dioxide45 · Jun 24, 2016

Assessments are due when billed by the association. It really doesn't matter if the assessment is because of a leaky roof that has leaked for years or taxes from years ago. The current owner is responsible. Also consider that taxes are often paid in arrears. So this year, some homeowners are paying 2014 or 2015 tax years. So they may not be going back as far as one might think.

EliteMember · Jun 24, 2016

emuyshondt said:
Just got the following e-mail from the HOA:

Should be interesting how this all plays out. Maui County sure is resorting to extortionary tactics.

With this new tax assessment the maintenance fee for North has now DOUBLED since it was built 8 years ago to over $3K/week for a 1BR+lockoff. We could not go this year, tried to sell our week during prime-time family vacation in August and received no offers that would even cover our annual maintenance fee. If you look online you can find units rented by owners or from Westin unsold inventory for less than the yearly fees -- let alone amortizing the upfront "investment". It makes the purchase of a Westin/Vistana Maui timeshare a total ripoff now. I feel ashamed having recommended the SVO program to friends and family in the past. Caveat Emptor!

WKORV-N&S Emergency Assessment [Retroactive Taxes]

Living the Dream

triangulum33

YYJMSP

YYJMSP

YYJMSP

triangulum33

Ken555

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

Scott & Laura

Negma

The Haileys

canesfan

VacationForever

TUG Review Crew

LisaRex

TUG Review Crew

LisaRex

TUG Review Crew

LisaH

LisaRex

TUG Review Crew

labonnevie

labonnevie

triangulum33

YYJMSP

VacationForever

TUG Review Crew

vacationtime1

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

Helios

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert

EliteMember