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The Lost Benefit

cbdmvci

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The next time someone goes to a Destination Club Points presentation, please raise this simple concern with the sales manager:

As I remember the presentation when I originally bought developer weeks, to me, the primary benefit of timeshare ownership was as a hedge against inflation: "you are paying 1998 dollars for your vacation no matter how high hotel rooms, for example, may cost in the future."

And, I think, that is one benefit that has proven to be fair and accurate. Buying a comparable vacation to those I can get with my timeshare properties would cost many hundreds of dollars per night today. My MF's are earned back in the first 2 or 3 days of the week. The next four days were paid for in 1998.

But, if in the Destination Club Program, the cost in points for a night is not fixed, but adjustable entirely at MVCI's discretion, than that, the most important benefit, is lost.

I guess MVCI'S response may be: the total points for the year is fixed, we can only move them around between seasons (and also resorts?, I'm not sure of that rule).

But to me, this flexibility of playing with the points entirely at Marriott's discretion is very suspect. If a new DC Club points buyer wants to vacation Xmas week, it can wind up costing him more and more and more and more ... without him having any control at all. I think the certain "hedge against inflation" benefit is substantially lost forever. Especially for those, say with children in school, who must travel prime weeks.

Ironically, for an empty nestor like me, just a couple of years away from retirement, it might actually work out well. Over time, with MVCI analyzing supply and demand, points costs will get more and more scewed toward higher demand weeks. If I can travel in lower demand time slots, it may even, over time, ameliorate the skim cost entirely.

Damn, I may just have changed my own mind. Maybe I'll join the DC, after all.
 
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AwayWeGo

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[triennial - points]
That Idea Was Bogus Then & Is Still Bogus Now.

As I remember the presentation when I originally bought developer weeks, to me, the primary benefit of timeshare ownership was as a hedge against inflation: "you are paying 1998 dollars for your vacation no matter how high hotel rooms, for example, may cost in the future."
That is a beguiling & seemingly attractive reason for buying timeshares -- to "lock in" prepaid vacation costs, by contrast with hotel-motel prices that are apt to go up.

Trouble is, it's Hide The Ball reasoning -- a quick & tricky example of changing the subject.

Acquisition cost of getting timeshares has nothing to do with the ongoing cost of using timeshares -- i.e., those everlasting & never-ending maintenance fees.

If I get my timeshare(s) el cheapo or even el freebo, that's still not locking in future inflation-hedging costs for vacation accommodations. That's because timeshare maintenance fees can & do go up-up-up, same as hotels & motels.

That bit about locking in vacation costs is clever, but untrue.

So it goes.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 

jme

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That is a beguiling & seemingly attractive reason for buying timeshares -- to "lock in" prepaid vacation costs, by contrast with hotel-motel prices that are apt to go up.

Trouble is, it's Hide The Ball reasoning -- a quick & tricky example of changing the subject.

Acquisition cost of getting timeshares has nothing to do with the ongoing cost of using timeshares -- i.e., those everlasting & never-ending maintenance fees.

If I get my timeshare(s) el cheapo or even el freebo, that's still not locking in future inflation-hedging costs for vacation accommodations. That's because timeshare maintenance fees can & do go up-up-up, same as hotels & motels.

That bit about locking in vacation costs is clever, but untrue.

So it goes.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Not totally untrue. Maintenance fees are far less than a rental for 7 nights (2 -BR condo, not hotel rooms) for what we want. That may not be true for off-season weeks, but we own prime summer weeks and the lowest price available (rental thru different sources) is still $1000-$1500 difference, so I would concur with OP that for me, the cost of "ever-rising" maintenance fees will still remain considerably less than the rental fees. Ratio of Maintenance fees to Rental Prices may not be so advantageous for those other weeks, granted.
 
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AwayWeGo

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[triennial - points]
Not Necessarily A Bad Deal, Just Not "Locked In" Costs.

I would concur with OP that for me, the cost of "ever-rising" maintenance fees will still remain considerably less than the rental fees. Ratio of Maintenance fees to Rental Prices may not be so advantageous for those other weeks, granted.
No argument from me.

Via timeshares, we still get to enjoy spacious & luxurious vacation accommodations at Motel 6 & Super 8 rates despite rising maintenance fees.

The point is simply that buying a timeshare -- cheap or high or in between, even getting 1 free -- locks in nothing no matter what the timeshare sellers say.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 

dioxide45

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Over time, with MVCI analyzing supply and demand, points costs will get more and more scewed toward higher demand weeks. If I can travel in lower demand time slots, it may even, over time, ameliorate the skim cost entirely.
.

I don't know if higher demand times will get more and more expensive point wise over time. Look at DVC. Their weekend nights were very expensive point wise. That caused a lot of people to rethink their plans and book only weeknights on DVC points and pay for a hotel stay for the weekend with cash. DVC when analyzing the supply and demand realized that demand now for those weekend nights was lower, so they made the cost of them less and the weeknights a little higher because the demand was there for weeknights to warrant it.

So over time you may see lower demand times become more demanded in the point system. Current under weeks all owners were paying the same MF, so they wanted to always travel during the prime weeks. All they had was a week so they wanted the best. Now with points some will realize they can go two or three weeks for their old one week. So they may now travel lower season and get more time away. This drives up demand for those non-prime weeks.
 

Werner Weiss

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But, if in the Destination Club Program, the cost in points for a night is not fixed, but adjustable entirely at MVCI's discretion, than that, the most important benefit, is lost.

My understanding is that there is contractual (legal) protection for Trust owners. The Trust owners own a piece of the trust, and that piece cannot be devalued arbitrarily. The point charts can be balanced out to make sure that they properly reflect relative demand, but it all has to add up the same way eventually. If Marriott did a good job coming up with the initial point charts, there should not be significant adjustments.

As far as I can tell, we enrolled weeks owners don't have a similar legal protection. But because we use the same point charts, we benefit from the protection for Trust owners. That's a good thing for for us. And we still have our weeks which we can use was we did before the Destination Club Program.
 

dioxide45

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My understanding is that there is contractual (legal) protection for Trust owners. The Trust owners own a piece of the trust, and that piece cannot be devalued arbitrarily. The point charts can be balanced out to make sure that they properly reflect relative demand, but it all has to add up the same way eventually. If Marriott did a good job coming up with the initial point charts, there should not be significant adjustments.

As far as I can tell, we enrolled weeks owners don't have a similar legal protection. But because we use the same point charts, we benefit from the protection for Trust owners. That's a good thing for for us. And we still have our weeks which we can use was we did before the Destination Club Program.

However, that legal protection only applies to resorts that are part of the trust and have had points allocated to the trust from them. There is no protection from an enrolled owner standpoint how many points they have to offer you each year for your week.
 

Werner Weiss

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However, that legal protection only applies to resorts that are part of the trust and have had points allocated to the trust from them. There is no protection from an enrolled owner standpoint how many points they have to offer you each year for your week.
Good point. That's how I understand it too.

In the end, the thing that protects enrolled owners most is that Marriott wants enrolled owners to use the program. That's what brings about a supply of points inventory at the whole portfolio of MVC resorts that are in the points charts, not just the newer properties that are part of the Trust.
 

Lawlar

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No Inflation Protection

As I remember the presentation when I originally bought developer weeks, to me, the primary benefit of timeshare ownership was as a hedge against inflation: "you are paying 1998 dollars for your vacation no matter how high hotel rooms, for example, may cost in the future."

.

I have to side with those who believe that this inflation argument for buying a TS from Marriott is false (for most of us).

Here are the numbers for my TS:
Purchase price: $50,000 -
A modest return on my money would be 5%, so lost yearly interest is $2,500.
Maintenance Fees are $2,000
Decrease in value of TS: $20,000 (spread out over ten years) is a loss of $2,000 a year.
Cost of illiquid investment (hard to sell) should be another consideration.

So by my crude math, I am spending $6,500 for the privilege of staying in a hotel room for one week a year. Not a great bargain, in my opinion.
 
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windje2000

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Good point. That's how I understand it too.

In the end, the thing that protects enrolled owners most is that Marriott wants enrolled owners to use the program. That's what brings about a supply of points inventory at the whole portfolio of MVC resorts that are in the points charts, not just the newer properties that are part of the Trust.

As a practical matter, Marriott can change the point costs and points allocated to any 'legacy' week. But to what end.

Suppose they made the points cost of a points reservation so high that one only received 2 or 3 days of occupancy for the points value of your week. All they would be doing is compelling legacy owners to exchange via II rather then through DClub - and that does them little good for DClub exchange co. inventory.

That's really the only factor I see that would limit their ability to deflate point values for legacy weeks.
 

scrapngen

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I have to side with those who believe that this inflation argument for buying a TS from Marriott is false (for most of us).

Here are the numbers for my TS:
Purchase price: $50,000 -
A modest return on my money would be 5%, so lost yearly interest is $2,500.
Maintenance Fees are $2,000
Decrease in value of TS: $20,000 (spread out over ten years) is a loss of $2,000 a year.
Cost of illiquid investment (hard to sell) should be another consideration.

So by my crude math, I am spending $6,500 for the privilege of staying in a hotel room for one week a year. Not a great bargain, in my opinion.

Well, to be fair, you are staying in a guaranteed week oceanfront 2 bedroom (?) 5 star resort, from what I can tell. Not a hotel room...:rolleyes:
 

gblotter

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If I had known about the numerous avenues to rent weeks at virtually any MVCI location during any week of the year, I likely would never have purchased. The rental option seems like such a better way to go. A typical rental price is usually only slightly more than the annual maintenance fees. And many times you can find deals for much less than the annual MF. I don't look back at my purchases with regret, but I do try to learn from experience.
 

timeos2

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Far easier to rent or trade for what we want. Especially easy to rent

If I had known about the numerous avenues to rent weeks at virtually any MVCI location during any week of the year, I likely would never have purchased. The rental option seems like such a better way to go. A typical rental price is usually only slightly more than the annual maintenance fees. And many times you can find deals for much less than the annual MF. I don't look back at my purchases with regret, but I do try to learn from experience.

Not due to any grand plan (except a refusal to part with large sums of money for any timeshare no matter how appealing at the time) we avoided Marriott after coming oh so close to buying at least twice. Fortunately we were able to get into our desired resorts via low cost trades/points and renting and then really didn't care if we never did Marriott again. Thus saving big upfront & later on the rather unexpected jump in annual fees and turn of the operation from owner friendly to profit motivated (similar to the DVC change of focus) and then the prices fell to where if we did want it we could actually buy - but now we don't want it anymore!

We may still enjoy some stays at what remain some of the nicer resorts in many popular areas but feel no need to be owners. The price/value - not sale price anymore but fees - just aren't attractive. Prepaid vacations? No way. The fees have increased way above the cost to rent and that isn't good for owners.
 

Lawlar

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You are right

Well, to be fair, you are staying in a guaranteed week oceanfront 2 bedroom (?) 5 star resort, from what I can tell. Not a hotel room...:rolleyes:

Yes, you are right. It's a really nice place. We are spoiled. But I could stay at another really nice place for a lot less money.
 

pacheco18

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You also have the possibility (if you know how to play the game and choose to play) of turning that one luxury week into 3 luxury weeks. That changes the math considerably.

I have used my 1 bedroom, deposited studio and exchanged for 2 bedroom and used bonus week for 3 bedroom. Makes that one week worth a bit more don't you think?
 

Old Hickory

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Do you guys ever factor in ACs and XYZs when pouring over your annual cost/benefit analysis?
 

SueDonJ

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Do you guys ever factor in ACs and XYZs when pouring over your annual cost/benefit analysis?

Sure, I factored in that for the last two years II didn't offer AC's for the weeks I own that used to get them, and that XYZ's weren't something I knew about until earlier this year. Even then, I learned about them in a thread in which everyone who did know about them posted how you had to be lucky enough to get the "right" II rep to process them for you. It's true, they're great if you know how to get and use them, but I much prefer a system where the exchange company you belong to takes the responsibility to see that you and every other member know exactly what you're entitled to and that you all get those same things without jumping through hoops.

[edited to add] By the way, AC and XYZ possibilities are not automatically lost upon enrollment in the DC. The new/Marriott II accounts for those of us who have enrolled in the DC to appear to be exactly the same as our old II accounts, and we've been told by Marriott and II that AC's and XYZ's will still be available (on the same limited basis) to us if we use our Week(s) within II for exchanging. Of course it might not make sense to enroll only one Week in the DC if you only ever intend to keep using II, but if you have more than one Week then it's not a bad thing to enroll all of them in the DC in order to be able to play within both systems.
 
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Lawlar

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Average Joe and Mary

OK, those of you who devote your efforts to making the most of your TS value, buying resale, getting your ACs, XYZs and ABCs, may be getting a bargain, of sorts. You are very creative, and I admire your resourcefulness.

I've discovered the advantages of renting, thanks to TUG and its members. I just got back from Shadow Ridge ($300 for the whole week - but boy are those rooms noisy, especially when your neighbor turns on their jacuzzi late at night), and we are going to Tahoe next week for $300 for the week (2 bedroom/kitchen). That's a great deal that has to make those who paid $20,000 for their units cry.

But for Joe and Mary Average, especially if they are retired and on a limited income, they are never going to get their money's worth if they buy a TS directly from Marriott. Their dreams of a world of beautiful vacations will disolve into the reality that they were taken by an overly aggressive salesperson.
 

DanCali

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...but I much prefer a system where the exchange company you belong to takes the responsibility to see that you and every other member know exactly what you're entitled to and that you all get those same things without jumping through hoops.

Too bad Marriott doesn't qualify...

I've heard too many cases of people being led to believe that a 1000 point purchase allows them to combine exchange points with trust points to access trust inventory directly. Imagine their surprise when they find out the truth. :eek:
 

SueDonJ

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Too bad Marriott doesn't qualify...

I've heard too many cases of people being led to believe that a 1000 point purchase allows them to combine exchange points with trust points to access trust inventory directly. Imagine their surprise when they find out the truth. :eek:

Misleading statements about availability aren't anything new to timesharing despite the fact that "subject to availability" has and always will be an important factor when considering whether or not the timeshare vacation model works for a person. When it comes to being misled, I don't see any difference between a salesperson saying, "You can reserve any Week within your season" and "You can reserve any Points inventory held by Marriott or released by other Owners." They're both true statements on their own but as we've all learned, things don't work out as simply as either would imply. When you factor in, especially, that most salespeople don't have a working knowledge of the product they're selling, then you learn that you have to read the docs to get the correct answers. I'm not saying it's the way things SHOULD be in the timeshare industry (or that Marriott couldn't have done a better job with the DC rollout) but I do wonder what in our past history with Marriott would lead us to believe that the salespeople would suddenly change their tactics with this new product. :shrug:

As far as my response in this thread, I was replying to the question about AC and XYZ factors. I do believe that Marriott's new exchange system provides far more transparency than II's system does as to exactly how much trade value you will be able to get from a certain deposit (availability notwithstanding.) "I have this many Points and it will cost this many to get what I want," is a lot simpler than, "I have this resort/season - which week should I reserve, where can I expect to go, has anyone ever gotten an AC, they gave me an AC last year but not two years ago, what about XYZ, wait what is XYZ, no way they didn't offer me an XYZ ..." and all the other nonsense that's involved with a successful II exchange.
 
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windje2000

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Misleading statements ... ARE LIES!!

When it comes to being misled, I don't see any difference between a salesperson saying, "You can reserve any Week within your season" and "You can reserve any Points inventory held by Marriott or released by other Owners." ...

What you say here is technically correct, but what the sales folks either say or lead you to believe is not always technically accurate.


... most salespeople don't have a working knowledge of the product they're selling, then you learn that you have to read the docs to get the correct answers.

And Marriott making the ill-informed sales staff the primary and virtual sole source of information is the fault of the buyer?



I'm not saying it's the way things SHOULD be in the timeshare industry ... but I do wonder what in our past history with Marriott would lead us to believe that the salespeople would suddenly change their tactics with this new product. :shrug:

So because Marriott has always done it, its therefore somehow acceptable if Marriott continues to do it? In other words, we're crooks and liars, we've always been crooks and liars - why would you expect anything else?


As far as my response in this thread, I was replying to the question about AC and XYZ factors. I do believe that Marriott's new exchange system provides far more transparency than II's system does

Actually Marriott was better than most in the timeshare biz, and the operative word in the antecedent clause is WAS.

I'm (relatively speaking) a newby timesharer compared to some folks here. But I did find out about XYZ and AC from II. How? I ask open ended questions - an art that is very useful in eliciting useful information about anything.

DC may well work better for you than II since a 3BR non-lockoff is not an efficient trading vehicle in II. But DC is a very pricey way to trade. Different strokes for different folks.

Personally, I have no tolerance whatsoever for prevarication in any form especially from someone trying to sell me something. Always read the documents first.
 

SueDonJ

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Misleading statements ARE LIES!!

What you say here is technically correct, but what the sales folks either say or lead you to believe is not always technically accurate.

And Marriott making the ill-informed sales staff the primary and virtual sole source of information is the fault of the buyer?

So because Marriott has always done it, its therefore somehow acceptable if Marriott continues to do it? In other words, we're crooks and liars, we've always been crooks and liars - why would you expect anything else?I'm (relatively speaking) a newby timesharer compared to some folks here. But I did find out about XYZ and AC from II. How? I ask open ended questions - an art that is very useful in eliciting useful information about anything.

DC may well work better for you than II since a 3BR non-lockoff is not an efficient trading vehicle in II. But DC is a very pricey way to trade. Different strokes for different folks.

Personally, I have no tolerance whatsoever for prevarication in any form especially from someone trying to sell me something. Always read the documents first.

Interesting how you and I have reached some of the same conclusions but you chopped up my post so that it appears we didn't. You're right - always read the documents first. But when the DC was rolled out, the documents WERE the FIRST thing available to all of us for review - they were put up on the website just after midnight on June 20th and the first TUG post about them was here within minutes.

You're also right that the salespeople were/are woefully inept at handling questions about it from the very first, but I stand by what I said that we should know better than to expect the salespeople to be able to answer detailed questioned from savvy owners. I don't like that that's how it is, but I accept it because it's reality. Quite honestly, it surprises me that TUGgers are somehow offended by misleading statements from salespeople because whenever a newbie comes to TUG and starts asking questions, some TUGgers take great delight in gleefully informing those newbies that, "if a salesperson's lips are moving, he's LYING!" So we're harmed by being misled, but we delight in pointing out that it happens to all of us?!

As far as open-ended questions to II - what would you have suggested I do differently? Each and every time my 3BR was exchanged for a 2BR in a lesser season/resort and I asked the II rep if there "isn't ANYthing that you can offer to make up the difference," absolutely no mention at all was made about the XYZ possibility. If as you say the correct answers are to be found if you only ask the right questions, how much more open-ended should my question have been worded?

And once again, we agree completely on different strokes for different folks - but nowhere have I said that the DC will work for everyone. In this particular thread, all I did was compare its transparency (with respect to exchange value) with II's.
 

windje2000

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Each and every time my 3BR was exchanged for a 2BR in a lesser season/resort and I asked the II rep if there "isn't ANYthing that you can offer to make up the difference," absolutely no mention at all was made about the XYZ possibility. If as you say the correct answers are to be found if you only ask the right questions, how much more open-ended should my question have been worded?

Certainly sounds like you asked the right questions and were ill served at II.

As to the sales shenanigans, I don't care what they've done in the past. Wrong is wrong. Repeating a wrong does not make it right.

I simply do not accept sales people 1. lying or 2. misrepresenting or 3. misleading or 4. knowingly allowing prospects to make a purchase decision under false and mistaken assumptions.

And Marriott obviously knows about it and condones it with the 'caveat emptor' (nothing a salesman says means anything if it's not in an approved writing) clause in the contract.

Points systems have greater complexity than the deeds system. The opportunities for shenanigans are greater in a brand new complex systems. Especially if the only documents descriptive of the plan are 'legal' documents.
 

Old Hickory

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Lawlar said:
Their dreams of a world of beautiful vacations will disolve into the reality that they were taken by an overly aggressive salesperson.

Their dreams of (______________________________) will disolve into the reality that they were taken by an overly aggressive (__________________).

Fill in your own, right? That's life. And that is why most of us are here, on TUG, to become informed people in order to make better decisions.

I'll look into that renting option, thanks Lawlar!
 
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