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Emergency care in London, Paris,Switzerland and Italy

MomoD

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The freedom of speach means exactly that, you are entitled to your opion as are all of us.
I'm not sure that anyone having a heart attack would make any list alive!!
I think the term OBAMACARE says it all with regard to any negative information regarding the NHS system, a lot ot people were looking for negative comments, I wonder why?
The thing about statistics are they can be manipulated, so I don't not beleive everything I read in the press.
If you have used the NHS and found it lacking, I am sorry for your disappointment, if not and only have newspapers, maybe you should wait until you have tried it first before trashing it.
I am 100% certain that not all hospitals within the US would pass muster, but that would'nt stop me going if I really needed a doctors help.

[/Quote]While I don't think I have seen any stastics or read any articles concerning heart attack care in the NHS, I have read quite a few about cancer care, where waiting lists too often cause the condition to worsen before a patient makes it up the list for surgery. That results in significantly higher death rates from many cancers in the NHS compared to the US.

Frankly, the articles I read while travelling in the UK in the Daily Telegraph of London, one of the major British newspapers about filthy conditions in a number of HNS hospitals would be enough to cause me to try to avoid any of them. Granted they may only be a minority, but I would not want to chance dealing with the conditions described in those articles.[/QUOTE]
 

colamedia

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If you're going any great distance, travel insurance is highly recommended. It isn't just health care, it also covers things like delayed/lost luggage, repatriation home after some major event, accommodation costs for travelling companions if they need to wait for you to be fit to travel, it covers any missed events, or change of plans due to other scheduling changes outside your control, missed flights, etc. There is always some international toll free number to call and they can get interpreters for you if you are somewhere that doesn't speak your language. It's insurance for your possessions, if you leave something on a seat or something gets stolen or goes missing from your room, all of that is usually covered. Sometimes it will cover a lot of the optional or even compulsory additional insureance required when you hire a car. It's a lot more than just international health care.
If you buy your plane ticket with a credit card, quite a few of them include basic travel insurance for the length of the trip.

I know most people don't bother with travel insurance for domestic travel, but it can make a huge difference if something does go wrong. I usually just use the credit card travel insurance for domestic travel, and get a real policy for international travel.



As for the NHS vs any other medical system, there are horror stories in every medical system. The local socio-economic level does get reflected in the local NHS system, as it does in almost every country - well equipped hospitals tend to be equipped well when the local community is judged worth providing that level of service to. Even so the lowest quality NHS care is probably a huge step up from what you can find in some areas of Washington DC, just as some of the healthcare in Washington DC at the other end of the scale is probably quite a step up from the average NHS level of care.
 
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Frankly, the articles I read while travelling in the UK in the Daily Telegraph of London, one of the major British newspapers about filthy conditions in a number of HNS hospitals would be enough to cause me to try to avoid any of them. Granted they may only be a minority, but I would not want to chance dealing with the conditions described in those articles.

My advice would be to base comments on personal experience certainly not what you read in the paper. The Telegraph is just as guilty of sensationalism as the rest of the tabloids.

Hospitals aren't filthy, there are no waiting lists for emergencies and best of all....it's free.
 

x3 skier

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As this thread has now sort of evolved into a discussion on the merits of various ways of financing Health Care and the results thereof, I hope Teddie2 got enough info on her original question.:D

Cheers
 

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Thank you all yes I did and then some:)
 

pwrshift

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If you're concerned about health problems you might also consider MedJet Assist. I've been a member for a number of years and never had to use it, but it gives me peace of mind in case I might need special air transportation from a hospital anywhere in the world to another hospital of my choice. Savings if you belong to AARP.

http://www.1earthtravelprotection.com/PDFs/Medjet Assist.pdf

Brian
 
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Carolinian

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My advice would be to base comments on personal experience certainly not what you read in the paper. The Telegraph is just as guilty of sensationalism as the rest of the tabloids.

Hospitals aren't filthy, there are no waiting lists for emergencies and best of all....it's free.

The Daily Telegraph is NOT a tabloid. It is the largest circulation broadsheet newspaper in the UK. Not all hospitals are filthy, but some are, and that is the rub. If you are in an area that has not had a problem, more power to you. But other challenges at the NHS also degrade the standard of care, such as this one:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8780363/NHS-hospitals-crippled-by-PFI-scheme.html
 

Carolinian

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My advice would be to base comments on personal experience certainly not what you read in the paper. The Telegraph is just as guilty of sensationalism as the rest of the tabloids.

Hospitals aren't filthy, there are no waiting lists for emergencies and best of all....it's free.

Here is one article from a prominent UK journalist that was published in the US:

Britain's National Healthcare Looks Like Medieval Medicine
by James Delingpole 03/24/2009

Victims left for hours covered in blood, denied pain relief; elderly cancer patients lying in their own filth; dirty, chaotic wards akin to "war zones"; a shortage of basic equipment, including trolleys and thermometers; shouting nurses; ill-trained, badly supervised medics; disease outbreaks; starvation and dehydration; mounting piles of dead…

Scenes from a hospital in war torn Chechnya, perhaps? Mugabe's Zimbabwe? Romania in the days of Ceaucescu? The aftermath of Antietam? The Middle Ages?

Why, no. This was an English hospital the day before yesterday. And the day after tomorrow [political comments deleted]

All too often when I tell my U.S. friends just how dire the state of our nationalized health care system is in Britain, they assume I must be exaggerating for effect. "But we've English friends who tell us that it's the Envy of The World," some of them say (of which more later). "Come on, it can't be that bad. At least it's fair, and at least it's for free," say others.

Then consider, my friends, Exhibit A. The foul sub-third-world conditions I've just described came not from my overactive imagination but from a newly-published official report into the parlous state of affairs at two state-run hospitals in the central English district of Mid Staffordshire.

According to the report by the Healthcare Commission, standards of care were so "appalling" that between 2005 and 2008 as many as 1,200 patients may have died unnecessarily.

You should see the photo shrine the victim's families have erected on one of the walls inside the hospital -- like a mini-9/11 memorial; it's a heartbreaking sight. There are pictures of the loved ones while they were still smiling and healthy, their dates written underneath. And there are printed sheets detailing some of the myriad ways they suffered and died:

•"Medication not monitored for side effects."


•"Staff shouting, squealing and laughing throughout the night disturbing patients"


• "Patients not helped to the toilet, told to use a bed pan -- staff too busy."


• "Patients not fed or given fluids -- food trays just left on the table out of reach."

It has been described by the National Health Service's medical director as a "gross and terrible breach of trust" of patients, though why he should be so shocked is anybody's guess. It's not as though this sort of thing hasn't happened in Britain's magnificent "free" healthcare system many, many times before.

This, remember, is the "service" so poor that 55 per cent of senior doctors take out private medical insurance so they don't have to use it; the one where one in 300 hospital deaths is the result of a patient contracting an infection completely unrelated to the one they came in to have treated; where the cancer survival rates are the worst in the civilized world; where more patients die in hospital in a year -- 40,000 -- than were killed in the 2006 Iraqi civil war.

[political comments deleted]

It's at this point that I ought to anticipate some of the comments which will appear at the bottom of this piece from one or two rose-tinted British readers. "Come off it," they'll protest. "It may be a basic service but at least it offers free healthcare at the point of
need, unlike in fascist America where if you haven't got insurance they leave you to die on the street…." or "How dare you insult our hardworking nurses" or "If it hadn't been for the wondrous NHS my beautiful, blue eyed child…" etc.

Yeah, yeah, all right so the NHS doesn't actually manage to murder every patient which crosses its threshold. Sure, its doctors and nurses can be nurturing and caring, but -- duh -- that's why they joined the medical profession rather than becoming, say, serial killers or
professional torturers in the service of Kim Jong Il​.

But I should warn American readers to take the surprisingly widespread British affection towards the NHS with a hefty pinch of salt. It’s a legacy of wartime rationing, I suspect. [political comments deleted].

.
 

CarolF

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Everything has changed now

OK I am not being pessimistic here but I cannot tell you how many vacations my H and i have been on where one or the other has been sick --I wound up in the emergency room on at least 3 occasions while on vacation and I have had kidney stones which can appear out of no where...no warning and I need an ER right away when that happens,
Knowing all this causes me to plan plan plan as much as I can so I see all the docs before I go, take all meds with me and extra prescriptions (though not sure how helpful they will be in another country)
I plan to call my health insurance before I go to find out what they will or will not cover,,,
What I want to know is .. had anyone ever had to go to the doc or ER while in any of the countries mentioned and if so did you have to pay alot --what was the experience like --is there anything else I should be doing. Rick Steves gives a lot of good advice but I am a bit nervous renting someplace say for example in the middle of a little town in Tuscany where who knows how far the nearest ER is and I don't speak the language.
My H and I are not that old but I guess as we are getting a bit older I think of these things...we are both active and in good health..but just covering my bases here... I have also had about 10 root canals and they just come on all of a sudden as well...not sure where I would find an endodontist in Sienna:)

Great idea to plan for any health emergencies. Sadly the European debt crisis has started to affect consumers. A friend recently needed an endodontist in Turkey and found an excellent one but he would only accept payment in Euro and cash before commencing treatment (no credit card/cheque and said "the US$ is not worth anything to me"). Then there is the problem with hospitals not paying their bills and drug companies stopping deliveries (Roche stopped deliveries to Greek hospitals and there was also discussion that they may take similar steps elsewhere - see link below).

I would continue to do more research for your stay in Italy (given their financial difficulties). Search for recommendations for appropriate medical practitioners/hospitals should they be needed, and you could then follow up what methods of payment would be acceptable/preferable. As you said, it's always good to cover your bases, a bit of research and planning now can put your mind at ease whilst you are away.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...1877220786.html?KEYWORDS=roche+greek+hospital
 
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The Daily Telegraph is NOT a tabloid. It is the largest circulation broadsheet newspaper in the UK. [/url]
I didn't say it was a tabloid, I said it was just as bad as the rest of the tabloids. Simply because it's the largest circulation broadsheet in the UK doesn't mean that what it prints is the 'gospel'. In actual fact it has gone steadily downhill in recent years and a few looks at the website will confirm its general downward spiral into sensationalism and tabloidesque journalism and is now comparable to the Daily Mail. In my opinion one of the best newspapers is The Independant.

The extract from the paper you posted below your other message just highlighted the sensationalism that it has plunged to. To anyone who has never experienced a UK hospital would be rightly appalled and shocked to read the description written however it is simply not representative of any hospital I know and I struggle to think of any hospital in the UK that resembles the one described in the article. Artistic licence at its worst I'm afraid.
 

Carolinian

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The article quoted was not from The Daily Telegraph but was published in a US publication, Human Events

The Daily Telegraph articles I read on a trip to the UK about a year after this article was pubished involved different hospitals in a different part of England, was written in a very different style, but recited facts that were quite similar to this op-ed piece, backed up again by official reports.

I didn't say it was a tabloid, I said it was just as bad as the rest of the tabloids. Simply because it's the largest circulation broadsheet in the UK doesn't mean that what it prints is the 'gospel'. In actual fact it has gone steadily downhill in recent years and a few looks at the website will confirm its general downward spiral into sensationalism and tabloidesque journalism and is now comparable to the Daily Mail. In my opinion one of the best newspapers is The Independant.

The extract from the paper you posted below your other message just highlighted the sensationalism that it has plunged to. To anyone who has never experienced a UK hospital would be rightly appalled and shocked to read the description written however it is simply not representative of any hospital I know and I struggle to think of any hospital in the UK that resembles the one described in the article. Artistic licence at its worst I'm afraid.
 
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sml2181

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I think it is always a good idea to investigate your options before leaving home. I always check things mentioned by the op - including when I travel to the US.

My friends think I am weird, but having had the experience once, of needing a hospital very badly because you suspect your child is in a coma, while everyone thinks he is just asleep, and you do not know where the nearest hospital is, let alone how to get there and nobody does speak any of the languages you speak - you really want to make sure about all your options before leaving home.
(Son is doing fine btw but he really was in a coma, just out of te blue he appeared to have an epidural haematoma)

So - I would always recommend to

- check your insurance (what is covered, and where)
- Ask insurance about the nearest hospital, or at least a doctor - and write down phone numbers, which most of them can provide
- make sure you have not maxed out your credit card
- make sure you have some cash, at least to cover some upfront costs
(Someone I know (American lady who has lived in Europe for ages) had to pay $5,000 in the US this last summer due to some unexpected treatment, her cc was maxed out and she didn't have enough cash in her bank account - she just assumed that the hospital was going to charge her insurance, but this hospital invoiced her, instead of her insurance. She was lucky because her parents were there and could help her out.)

- make sure you can access ATM's in foreign countries; at least to cover some costs
- make sure you have access to a phone or something else for communication
- make sure you do know where the embassies and consulates are, and have their phone numbers at hand
- I think for Americans it would be wise to have an AAA emergency number or something like that (I think AAA has a helpdesk for people traveling abroad?)
- We always prefer to have a rental car, but if that is not an option, make sure you can pay for taxi costs, or other transportation costs

Maybe it looks like a lot of work and maybe it is completely crazy to some, but usually, one phone call to my insurance or the Dutch version of the AAA, depending on what I need to know, does the trick. And if not - I think it is worth the relatively small amount of effort.
 

Teddie2

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I think it is always a good idea to investigate your options before leaving home. I always check things mentioned by the op - including when I travel to the US.

My friends think I am weird, but having had the experience once, of needing a hospital very badly because you suspect your child is in a coma, while everyone thinks he is just asleep, and you do not know where the nearest hospital is, let alone how to get there and nobody does speak any of the languages you speak - you really want to make sure about all your options before leaving home.
(Son is doing fine btw but he really was in a coma, just out of te blue he appeared to have an epidural haematoma)

So - I would always recommend to

- check your insurance (what is covered, and where)
- Ask insurance about the nearest hospital, or at least a doctor - and write down phone numbers, which most of them can provide
- make sure you have not maxed out your credit card
- make sure you have some cash, at least to cover some upfront costs
(Someone I know (American lady who has lived in Europe for ages) had to pay $5,000 in the US this last summer due to some unexpected treatment, her cc was maxed out and she didn't have enough cash in her bank account - she just assumed that the hospital was going to charge her insurance, but this hospital invoiced her, instead of her insurance. She was lucky because her parents were there and could help her out.)

- make sure you can access ATM's in foreign countries; at least to cover some costs
- make sure you have access to a phone or something else for communication
- make sure you do know where the embassies and consulates are, and have their phone numbers at hand
- I think for Americans it would be wise to have an AAA emergency number or something like that (I think AAA has a helpdesk for people traveling abroad?)
- We always prefer to have a rental car, but if that is not an option, make sure you can pay for taxi costs, or other transportation costs

Maybe it looks like a lot of work and maybe it is completely crazy to some, but usually, one phone call to my insurance or the Dutch version of the AAA, depending on what I need to know, does the trick. And if not - I think it is worth the relatively small amount of effort.

Thank you all for your suggestions... you have given us many things to check out and some we have already and taken advantage of....TUggers Rock!!:whoopie:
 

MALC9990

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My former employee never had a heart attack herself, but had other medical issues where she found immense problems with waiting lists. With her journalist background, I think she used the heart attack scenario mainly to make her point about waiting lists in general.

While I don't think I have seen any stastics or read any articles concerning heart attack care in the NHS, I have read quite a few about cancer care, where waiting lists too often cause the condition to worsen before a patient makes it up the list for surgery. That results in significantly higher death rates from many cancers in the NHS compared to the US.

Frankly, the articles I read while travelling in the UK in the Daily Telegraph of London, one of the major British newspapers about filthy conditions in a number of HNS hospitals would be enough to cause me to try to avoid any of them. Granted they may only be a minority, but I would not want to chance dealing with the conditions described in those articles.

One wonders why you ever thought it safe to leave the USA.
 

MALC9990

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The Daily Telegraph is NOT a tabloid. It is the largest circulation broadsheet newspaper in the UK. Not all hospitals are filthy, but some are, and that is the rub. If you are in an area that has not had a problem, more power to you. But other challenges at the NHS also degrade the standard of care, such as this one:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8780363/NHS-hospitals-crippled-by-PFI-scheme.html

Yeah and every hospital in the USA is a brilliant facility with fantastic medical services that you will not be hassled for your credit card before you get treated. No one dies in hospital in the USA ????

The Daily Telegraph is a right wing newspaper that derides everything that is not driven by money !
 

Carolinian

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One wonders why you ever thought it safe to leave the USA.

I have no health care concerns in eastern Europe. My employer provided health coverage can get me into the superior private facilities here and even includes air medevac coverage if necessary. In the UK, it would get me into the excellent private health care facilities.

As to my former employee, she was young enough that I am sure that whatever she was confronted with waiting lists on at the NHS, it was not a heart attack. With her background in journalism, that was likely used for emphasis on her opinion of the NHS and its waiting lists. Since she left us, she is back in journalism, now as news director for one of the largest broadcast networks in this country.
 

Carolinian

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Yeah and every hospital in the USA is a brilliant facility with fantastic medical services that you will not be hassled for your credit card before you get treated. No one dies in hospital in the USA ????

One out of every 300 deaths are NOT from an infection unrelated to what they went to the hospital for as they are in the NHS.

One in 6 is not misdiagnosed as they are at the NHS according to the official reports.
 
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cwtkm3

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Our awful NHS!

I am an urgent care centre emergency nurse practitioner and can assure all visitors to the UK that any emergency eg heart attack, stroke, acute abdominal pain etc etc will be dealt with immediately.

Our ERs do a fantastic job under immense pressure. Many of the patients in there don't need to be as they don't have an accident or an emergency.

Like anything in life you get what you pay for so for those fortunate enough to be able to afford health care you'll get to see the specialist; after all he/she wants your cash.

My mother died 2 years ago in an American hospital having lived in the USA for 27 years. When she took ill my father failed to recognise the seriousness of her situation. No Doctor would do a home visit (unlike my own workplace where both Doctors and Nurses do home visits to the ill and needy). My father was told to call 911 but unfortunately he didn't as was concerned re- a huge bill should it not have been deemed necessary. My mother lost her life and I can 100% hand on heart say that if she had been in the UK she would still be alive today.

I am not making this up - I swear a home visit by one of our General Practitioners (family Doctors) would have saved her life.

Her care over the years in the USA was shambolic. I meet many Americans at my workplace who have plenty of bad things to say about the wonderful American healthcare system.

So Carolinian don't condem our NHS on tittle tattle and what you read in the press. Mid-Staffs was a horrible situation but not all of our hospitals are like this. Our country is over populated (many of your Eastern European "friends" love to live here and enjoy our "free" healthcare) and copes extremely well under pressure.
 
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Teddie2

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I am an urgent care centre emergency nurse practitioner and can assure all visitors to the UK that any emergency eg heart attack, stroke, acute abdominal pain etc etc will be dealt with immediately.

Our ERs do a fantastic job under immense pressure. Many of the patients in there don't need to be as they don't have an accident or an emergency.

Like anything in life you get what you pay for so for those fortunate enough to be able to afford health care you'll get to see the specialist; after all he/she wants your cash.

My mother died 2 years ago in an American hospital having lived in the USA for 27 years. When she took ill my father failed to recognise the seriousness of her situation. No Doctor would do a home visit (unlike my own workplace where both Doctors and Nurses do home visits to the ill and needy). My father was told to call 911 but unfortunately he didn't as was concerned re- a huge bill should it not have been deemed necessary. My mother lost her life and I can 100% hand on heart say that if she had been in the UK she would still be alive today.

I am not making this up - I swear a home visit by one of our General Practitioners (family Doctors) would have saved her life.

Her care over the years in the USA was shambolic. I meet many Americans at my workplace who have plenty of bad things to say about the wonderful American healthcare system.

So Carolinian don't condem our NHS on tittle tattle and what you read in the press. Mid-Staffs was a horrible situation but not all of our hospitals are like this. Our country is over populated (many of your Eastern European "friends" love to live here and enjoy our "free" healthcare) and copes extremely well under pressure.


I feel as if my post has started a mini international war just for asking for some simple advice.
Every health care system has is flaws and you are right US is no different -it is expensive and many cannot afford it...it is in a crisis of sorts... but its what I know and since I will be in several places that I don;t know I was just trying to be prepared... life happens and like it or not people do get sick-- I wish it had not happened to me so many times --thank goodness not life threatening but necessary regardless---
I am sure no matter where I am if I should need help I will get it.
Thank you for all th advice and the entertaining banter...peace:)
 

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I have no health care concerns in eastern Europe. My employer provided health coverage can get me into the superior private facilities here and even includes air medevac coverage if necessary. In the UK, it would get me into the excellent private health care facilities.

As to my former employee, she was young enough that I am sure that whatever she was confronted with waiting lists on at the NHS, it was not a heart attack. With her background in journalism, that was likely used for emphasis on her opinion of the NHS and its waiting lists. Since she left us, she is back in journalism, now as news director for one of the largest broadcast networks in this country.

Indeed it would. Your Employer Provided health Care Insurance would get you excellent private treatment in the UK - but most likely initially from an NHS source. Your pots alluded to "rationing" in the NHS for treatment. Whaqt is it but rationing in your Eastern European country where 99% of the local populace are unable to afford the "superior" private facilities that your Employer provided Insurance provides to you. So rationing by another route - one which provides superior treatment to those that can pay rather than rationing of treatment to those in most need. Ethically I think I prefer the later. Having said that no one should iundertake foreign travel without adequate travel insurance including medical insurance. i certainly would not go to the USA without at least $2 million in cover and would not set foot east of Dover without my EHIC (European Health Insurance card) and adequate travel insurance for medical cover.

Is the NHS perfect - by no measure can anyone say it is. Is healthcare in the USA excellent - yes if you can afford it or have Employer provided healthcare insurance - something a growing unemployed base in the USA is losing. Are millions of people in the UK excluded from proper healthcare because they cannot afford insurance or choose not to have private health insurance - NO they are not they get the treatment FREE at the point of use.

To the OP I would say this - take out adequate travel insurance that provides the required level of medical insurance in case you need it. I would never travel to the USA or any other country in the world without it.

If you are unfortunate enough to be taken ill in the UK then the first point of contact to get help would be NHS Direct http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/

There are also Walk In Medical centres available across the UK.

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutN...gentcareservices/Pages/Walk-incentresFAQ.aspx

You will be safe using medical services in the UK should you need them but travel insurance is essential wherever you go in the world.
 

colamedia

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Originally Posted by MALC9990
No one dies in hospital in the USA ????
One out of every 300 deaths are NOT from an infection unrelated to what they went to the hospital for as they are in the NHS.

One in 6 is not misdiagnosed as they are at the NHS according to the official reports.
You are quite correct, the US numbers don't match the NHS numbers - they are WORSE - intraogenic deaths account for at leat 2% of deaths in hospitals, almost half of those from unrealted to admission infections obtained in hospitals, which is a lot more than 0.33% under the NHS. (2000 numbers and the more recent figures are higher).

The misdiagnosis of serious medical conditions in the US is one in 5, worse than the NHS figure you quoted (that 1 in 5 has not changed since the 1930s according to the NY times)

Basically going to hospitally is the 3rd largest killer in the US, behind cardio-vascular disease and cancer.

The NHS isn't perfect, standards vary across the system, that pretty much applies to any 'system', and there is no way of knowing if you'll find a low standard or high standard until you actually check the individual standards. Private healthcare is usually of a higher standard than public healthcare, that doesn't just apply to UK, or US, it's anywhere else in the world where there is a public and a private system. The HUGE difference is the cost of healthcare in US compared to the rest of the world.
 
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tlwmkw

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Not trying to fuel this fire any further but one thing to remember is that the consultant doctors that you see in the private hospitals, & on Harley Street, in England are the same ones you see in the NHS hospitals. They can do both within the system and it is not frowned on. The differences are actually more cosmetic than anything else. Often the consultants will see a patient in an NHS clinic and then say "You can have surgery in 6 months with the NHS if you wait on the list but if you want I can do it tomorrow at the private hospital around the corner".

Now in Eastern Europe it is very different. I know someone who was physician there (in Russia) and he tells horror stories about how things are done in the public hospitals. If you have money in Russia you leave and travel to Switzerland or Germany for health care.

Having lived in Europe and the US I would personally say you will probably get better and cheaper care there than in the US. Even without the insurance you will probably not be bankrupted in Europe. I would still get the insurance though. Just my opinion.

tlwmkw
 
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